Thorens spindle

[Squishman]

About 30% of my LP's that I play for the first time on my Thorens tt don't fit the spindle. Is that weird? I keep a clean rat tail file near my turntable to widen it just enough. They fit snug afterwards. I only take enough off so that it just slips over tightly. I am extremely careful with my records. I insert the file, tip it per Isaac Newton, then give the LP one or two turns. I always clean for chips of course. What the heck else am I suppose to do??!! I still wouldn't have any other turntable.

 

[TLS Guy]

About 30% of my LP's that I play for the first time on my Thorens tt don't fit the spindle. Is that weird? I keep a clean rat tail file near my turntable to widen it just enough. They fit snug afterwards. I only take enough off so that it just slips over tightly. I am extremely careful with my records. I insert the file, tip it per Isaac Newton, then give the LP one or two turns. I always clean for chips of course. What the heck else am I suppose to do??!! I still wouldn't have any other turntable.

In that case you have a lot of records out of spec. I have never had that problem with either of my Thorens turntables.

 

[Squishman]

In that case you have a lot of records out of spec. I have never had that problem with either of my Thorens turntables.

I didn't have that issue with my previous tt. I just measured my spindle. I have .282" What do you have?

 

[TLS Guy]

I didn't have that issue with my previous tt. I just measured my spindle. I have .282" What do you have?

I just measured the spindle on my Thorens 125 MK II, the same model as yours at 0.283 with my screw Vernier scale. The hole standard for LPs in 0.286, which gives plenty of clearance. If you have records that are not fitting the spindle, then they are out of spec. I don't know where you source your discs, but they are probably poorly manufactured Far Eastern discs.

Almost all my discs are European pressings, from either the old UK DECCA or EMI plants. Many came from the superb Philips plant in Eindhoven, Holland, which latterly pressed most of the discs for the European companies. I do have some US pressings from CBS. I can't recall having a rogue disc pressing like you describe. I have not bought an LP for many years. Pre CD I bought mainly European pressings and imported them from Europe. US pressings on the whole were very inferior. Especially true of US EMI angel, so I made sure I had European HMV pressings.

I suspect your issue is that the Far Eastern turntables have spindles slightly below spec. to accommodate sloppy manufacture.

So, leave your Thorens turntable alone, and modify the rogue discs. Any LP properly manufactured to spec, will fit on your Thorens with ease. If does not, it is rogue.

 

[Squishman]

I just measured the spindle on my Thorens 125 MK II, the same model as yours at 0.283 with my screw Vernier scale. The hole standard for LPs in 0.286, which gives plenty of clearance. If you have records that are not fitting the spindle, then they are out of spec. I don't know where you source your discs, but they are probably poorly manufactured Far Eastern discs.

Almost all my discs are European pressings, from either the old UK DECCA or EMI plants. Many came from the superb Philips plant in Eindhoven, Holland, which latterly pressed most of the discs for the European companies. I do have some US pressings from CBS. I can't recall having a rogue disc pressing like you describe. I have not bought an LP for many years. Pre CD I bought mainly European pressings and imported them from Europe. US pressings on the whole were very inferior. Especially true of US EMI angel, so I made sure I had European HMV pressings.

I suspect your issue is that the Far Eastern turntables have spindles slightly below spec. to accommodate sloppy manufacture.

So, leave your Thorens turntable alone, and modify the rogue discs. Any LP properly manufactured to spec, will fit on your Thorens with ease. If does not, it is rogue.

I will start to check which records and where they were pressed, etc. It happens so darn frequently that I can assure you that they are from a variety of sources. I will also start measuring the ID's.

 

[TLS Guy]

I will start to check which records and where they were pressed, etc. It happens so darn frequently that I can assure you that they are from a variety of sources. I will also start measuring the ID's.

You need to start measuring the hole diameters and see how far out of spec they are. I suspect some turntable manufacturers are making the spindle below spec, so that don't get complaints like yours. However this is a bad idea, as then many records that are in spec, will be off center and have wow (speed change variation) which is very bad, especially for sustained notes. It does not take much wow to be unpleasant.

Rest assured the Swiss made your Thorens spindle precisely the correct diameter. In those days Swiss precision engineering was the best in the world.

 

[Squishman]

You need to start measuring the hole diameters and see how far out of spec they are. I suspect some turntable manufacturers are making the spindle below spec, so that don't get complaints like yours. However this is a bad idea, as then many records that are in spec, will be off center and have wow (speed change variation) which is very bad, especially for sustained notes. It does not take much wow to be unpleasant.

Rest assured the Swiss made your Thorens spindle precisely the correct diameter. In those days Swiss precision engineering was the best in the world.

That's what I said. I'll start measuring the inside diameter of the spindle holes when I come across these records that don't fit. I have a couple of different verniers. A digital Mitutoyo and a dial one in my tool chest in the shed.

These are some recent ones, but I didn’t measure the ID’s before enlarging the holes.

https://www.discogs.com/release/9405503-Phoebe-Snow-Phoebe-Snow

https://www.discogs.com/release/22834598-Tonio-K-Amerika

https://www.discogs.com/release/1265927-Tonio-K-La-Bomba

And here’s one I just came across that doesn’t fit. It is .283.5”

https://www.discogs.com/release/26500991-Chagall-Guevara-Chagall-Guevara

 

[TLS Guy]

That's what I said. I'll start measuring the inside diameter of the spindle holes when I come across these records that don't fit. I have a couple of different verniers. A digital Mitutoyo and a dial one in my tool chest in the shed.

These are some recent ones, but I didn’t measure the ID’s before enlarging the holes.

https://www.discogs.com/release/9405503-Phoebe-Snow-Phoebe-Snow

https://www.discogs.com/release/22834598-Tonio-K-Amerika

https://www.discogs.com/release/1265927-Tonio-K-La-Bomba

And here’s one I just came across that doesn’t fit. It is .283.5”

https://www.discogs.com/release/26500991-Chagall-Guevara-Chagall-Guevara

 

[Squishman]

oops. I mean .2835 obviously.

 

[TLS Guy]

At least you now know what the spec. is : - 0.286".

 

[Squishman]

I just checked again. Both verniers are measuring the spindle at .2825. Seems you need a little more tolerance for the record to slip over. Now, I could push it down each time, but in most of these cases, they'd be on way, way too tight to pick it up again off of the platter. I'll be keeping track for a while now.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just checked again. Both verniers are measuring the spindle at .2825. Seems you need a little more tolerance for the record to slip over. Now, I could push it down each time, but in most of these cases, they'd be on way, way too tight to pick it up again off of the platter. I'll be keeping track for a while now.

So your measurements are consistent with mine. They show very close precise machining at the old Thorens Swiss factory. So records in spec. should fit perfectly. As you know I have a large LP collection going back over 70 years. I have never had to enlarge a record spindle hole. I guess it takes modern manufacturing to make a mess of things. My Thornes TD 150 I bought in 1965, it was one of the first ones made, and bought without PU arm or plinth. That is they way they were first sold back then.

 

[m. zillch]

It's better to have a snug fit than one with "slop". [I've never owned one but I'm told record changers notoriously with their tall spindle had small diameters—to facilitate the "next record auto drop stage"] so there was indeed lateral slop and this can cause audible wow since the record may land "off center".

Records that "stick" to a spindle can be bored out slightly with a pen/pencil tip. Also I find that after a few plays the hole gets bored out on its own via wear 'n' tear.

 

[Squishman]

It's better to have a snug fit than one with "slop". [I've never owned one but I'm told record changers notoriously with their tall spindle had small diameters—to facilitate the "next record auto drop stage"] so there was indeed lateral slop and this can cause audible wow.

Records that "stick" to a spindle can be bored out slightly with a pen/pencil tip. Also I find that after a few plays the hole gets bored out on its own via wear 'n' tear.

You'd have to come and see what I'm talking about. If I went ahead and put some of these on there, they would not come off without a whole lot of manipulating, and I do not want to bend my records with my thumb on the spindle prying up with my fingertips on the edges. Not going to do it, wouldn't be prudent.
In other words these are way worse than just "snug".

 

[m. zillch]

Not to be taken as an endorsement from me, but an interesting approach at low cost, here:

Seeing the guy hold his record by touching the play surface with his fingers—OMG, NO!

 

[Squishman]

I am sure my rat tail file is as effective or likely better than his $50 or $60 cutting gizmo. Probably costs 4 or 5 bucks at Menards. And another buck for the red file handle. But at least from the video, it's obvious I am not the only one with this issue. I think he said it's more common with 180 g newer issues. I'm not sure that that's true. It might be. I'll have to keep track now. But my Phoebe Snow record is an original issue from 1975 or thereabouts and that one I had to file out. In fact I had my sisters and stepmom over and I was looking forward to playing this record for them because it is quite amazing. Such a great record and I wanted them to hear it on my new turntable. So I was bummed. It didn't fit! This was very shortly after I got the Thorens turntable. I knew I had the file in my toolbox (it's basically never been used for anything. I'm not going to use an old ratty dirty ass file on my records), but I didn't take the time to go get the file. I just "filed" it away in my mind that that's what I was going to do in the future, was file it out if it happens again and it sure has. Incidentally, I found that album now on a Digital Compact Classics gold CD a few months back.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not to be taken as an endorsement from me, but an interesting approach at low cost, here:

Seeing the guy hold his record by touching the play surface with his fingers—OMG, NO!

That lunatic did not even drill the hole in the center. It is clearly off center, and it must have huge pitch wow. Idiot!

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL vinyl is so rife with issues.

 

[Squishman]

LOL vinyl is so rife with issues.

So are old cars and old Yamaha 2 stroke motorcycles.

 

[m. zillch]

I used to sell. . . .well, I carried at least, turntables from Nakamichi which had a cool feature where the turntable didn't care where the spindle hole was. Before play it launches a probe arm which plays the final inner ring and then—get this—physically moves the record laterally itself so rotation is around the true center of that ring regardless of where the hole is! WOW! Um, I mean lack of audible wow! Check it out. Many people think "Dragon" only means their cassette deck but this was also called Dragon:

There are other causes of wow but this one is a major one and clearly some people can't hear it because I've seen Fremmy post some videos where I can hear it but he obviously must be oblivious to it or else he wouldn't have posted the video!