Novice Question.

[Gio-G]

I stated in my intro post, that I'm quite out of my depth here and don't know what a lot of the well versed, trained audio folks know. I'm not an engineer, I'm a lover of music and I feel I've been steered into making some decent decisions when it comes to equipment, although my Bryston stuff is expensive and can be done for less I have it and like it. That part is what it is. It measures well, so I'm told and I like the quality, warranty and I'm comfortable with it.

I have Perlisten S7T speakers and I'm considering two Subs.

Perlisten R12s subs (more than I want to spend) or Aredndal 1723 S1 subs. SVS is another option.

The question I have is whether most people feel an external crossover is a must or a MiniDSP?

Both Perlisten and Arendal have told me, I can hook up directly to my Bryston BP-19 via balanced XLRs and use their software and apps to tune the timing of the subs for integration and didn't seem to think running the S7Ts full range was an issue.

I am a two channel listener and really only want the bottom end of the bottom end.

I've read and reread the Audioholics S7T review and the Perlisten bass was viewed as very good. The initial review stated subs were not a must at all. I suppose that it true to a degree.

I previously used my NHT 3.3 speakers that were legendary for bass. I still have them but the Perlisten speakers are better in every area except the deepest bass.

I don't know how to take measurements or anything like that and it sounds overwhelming without help.

What do most here feel is the best route for a CD listener that wants to add some very low end?

I do boundary load (7 1/2" off the front wall) the S7Ts a little for extra bass with good results but I think a couple of subs in a diagonal layout might help out.

I probably won't do anything this year but wanted to see if anyone has tried full range and compared it to using a crossover or MiniDSP.

I'm trying to stay as basic as possible but if going beyond the company's software and apps is the best move, I will do so.

Thanks in advance for any advice, I really appreciate forums like this.

 

[lovinthehd]

Some like the duplication of frequencies with out a proper crossover. If the speakers are capable and it doesn't sound "too much" to you, just use it and be happy with what gear you already have. If you really want multiple sub management or better bass management, then look into gear that can provide that. Personally I prefer better sub/bass management than old 2ch gear generally provides, or what a sub can provide in the way of a low pass filter (altho some subs have a limited option for implementing a crossover).

 

[Gio-G]

Some like the duplication of frequencies with out a proper crossover. If the speakers are capable and it doesn't sound "too much" to you, just use it and be happy with what gear you already have. If you really want multiple sub management or better bass management, then look into gear that can provide that. Personally I prefer better sub/bass management than old 2ch gear generally provides, or what a sub can provide in the way of a low pass filter (altho some subs have a limited option for implementing a crossover).

Thanks for the reply!
I'm pretty set here as far as gear. I'm thrilled with everything but if I add subs, I want to integrate them properly.
The Bryston stuff has recently been upgraded to the newest models of my previous 1999 gear. I won't be messing around with anything else other than whatever I may need for subs should I go that route.

I like your first sentence because it sounds like it is worth an experiment. If I don't like the integration, the next step is the MiniDSP or something similar.

I appreciate your response so, thank you for looking and adding your thoughts!

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the reply!
I'm pretty set here as far as gear. I'm thrilled with everything but if I add subs, I want to integrate them properly.
The Bryston stuff has recently been upgraded to the newest models of my previous 1999 gear. I won't be messing around with anything else other than whatever I may need for subs should I go that route.

I like your first sentence because it sounds like it is worth an experiment. If I don't like the integration, the next step is the MiniDSP or something similar.

I appreciate your response so, thank you for looking and adding your thoughts!

Yep, experimenting is a great start. Properly means different things with different rooms/gear, let alone preferences or budget, etc. Ideally you have speakers that incorporate sufficient subwoofage, but.....

 

[TLS Guy]

I stated in my intro post, that I'm quite out of my depth here and don't know what a lot of the well versed, trained audio folks know. I'm not an engineer, I'm a lover of music and I feel I've been steered into making some decent decisions when it comes to equipment, although my Bryston stuff is expensive and can be done for less I have it and like it. That part is what it is. It measures well, so I'm told and I like the quality, warranty and I'm comfortable with it.

I have Perlisten S7T speakers and I'm considering two Subs.

Perlisten R12s subs (more than I want to spend) or Aredndal 1723 S1 subs. SVS is another option.

The question I have is whether most people feel an external crossover is a must or a MiniDSP?

Both Perlisten and Arendal have told me, I can hook up directly to my Bryston BP-19 via balanced XLRs and use their software and apps to tune the timing of the subs for integration and didn't seem to think running the S7Ts full range was an issue.

I am a two channel listener and really only want the bottom end of the bottom end.

I've read and reread the Audioholics S7T review and the Perlisten bass was viewed as very good. The initial review stated subs were not a must at all. I suppose that it true to a degree.

I previously used my NHT 3.3 speakers that were legendary for bass. I still have them but the Perlisten speakers are better in every area except the deepest bass.

I don't know how to take measurements or anything like that and it sounds overwhelming without help.

What do most here feel is the best route for a CD listener that wants to add some very low end?

I do boundary load (7 1/2" off the front wall) the S7Ts a little for extra bass with good results but I think a couple of subs in a diagonal layout might help out.

I probably won't do anything this year but wanted to see if anyone has tried full range and compared it to using a crossover or MiniDSP.

I'm trying to stay as basic as possible but if going beyond the company's software and apps is the best move, I will do so.

Thanks in advance for any advice, I really appreciate forums like this.

I assume that this is a two channel audio system. Now that Bryston preamp has two XLR outputs, one variable and the other fixed. The same for the two RCA outs.

Now I assume you are using the speaker in the ported mode. Saying a speaker can be both ported and sealed is nonsense, as the enclosure volumes are very different. However the speaker has to have the optimal volume for ported application, and so you should use the speakers in ported mode. As far as I can tell from independent measurements, the frequency at which the speaker is 3 db. down is 50 Hz or close.

Now since the Bryson has no sub out, you will have to be creative. Now you only have one variable volume out, so you will need a splitter. I would use an XLR splitter, like this one. So the input is connected to the variable out on the Bryston. Then you connect one output to your power amp and the other to the XLR input in the sub. I would start be setting the crossover on the sub to 80 Hz. Your speakers will be running full range, and this is fine as they are capable speakers. That splitter I linked will drive up to four subs, but I highly doubt you will need more than two subs. I would use two, and this is not an AV unit that has a sub out. Two subs will capture the bass from left and right channels. I would set the sub volume by ear. I do find that most people turn up their subs too high which is not natural. I would start off putting a sub right next to each speaker. You can experiment with sub volume and crossover frequency, but I think I have given you the best place to start.

You did no say how your power amp is connected to the Bryston, or what it is. If it is connected via XLR then that splitter will drive power amp to the mains, and your two subs. You will need one of those splitters for each channel.

I think this is the best way of going about it.

 

[Gio-G]

I assume that this is a two channel audio system. Now that Bryston preamp has two XLR outputs, one variable and the other fixed. The same for the two RCA outs.

Now I assume you are using the speaker in the ported mode. Saying a speaker can be both ported and sealed is nonsense, as the enclosure volumes are very different. However the speaker has to have the optimal volume for ported application, and so you should use the speakers in ported mode. As far as I can tell from independent measurements, the frequency at which the speaker is 3 db. down is 50 Hz or close.

Now since the Bryson has no sub out, you will have to be creative. Now you only have one variable volume out, so you will need a splitter. I would use an XLR splitter, like this one. So the input is connected to the variable out on the Bryston. Then you connect one output to your power amp and the other to the XLR input in the sub. I would start be setting the crossover on the sub to 80 Hz. Your speakers will be running full range, and this is fine as they are capable speakers. That splitter I linked will drive up to four subs, but I highly doubt you will need more than two subs. I would use two, and this is not an AV unit that has a sub out. Two subs will capture the bass from left and right channels. I would set the sub volume by ear. I do find that most people turn up their subs too high which is not natural. I would start off putting a sub right next to each speaker. You can experiment with sub volume and crossover frequency, but I think I have given you the best place to start.

You did no say how your power amp is connected to the Bryston, or what it is. If it is connected via XLR then that splitter will drive power amp to the mains, and your two subs. You will need one of those splitters for each channel.

I think this is the best way of going about it.

Apologies, I thought I mentioned it was primarily a 2 channels setup.
The Bryston BP-19 has the option of changing the fixed XLRs to variable which is how I'd hook up the subs. The Bryston amps 7B-ST mono blocks, are connect via XLR as well.
I do not have the speakers in sealed mode. They are running with the ports open and will stay that way.

I'm going to audition some subs where I bought my speakers to hear If I'd simply prefer to stick with the current setup. I wouldn't mind a little deeper bass but that issue only presents itself with certain music.

If we ever watch TV over 2 channel, we just consider the stereo a bonus. I have no interest in H-T. We just don't do that many movies.

Thanks for the info, I'll consider any advice here and I appreciate your response.

 

[TLS Guy]

Apologies, I thought I mentioned it was primarily a 2 channels setup.
The Bryston BP-19 has the option of changing the fixed XLRs to variable which is how I'd hook up the subs. The Bryston amps 7B-ST mono blocks, are connect via XLR as well.
I do not have the speakers in sealed mode. They are running with the ports open and will stay that way.

I'm going to audition some subs where I bought my speakers to hear If I'd simply prefer to stick with the current setup. I wouldn't mind a little deeper bass but that issue only presents itself with certain music.

If we ever watch TV over 2 channel, we just consider the stereo a bonus. I have no interest in H-T. We just don't do that many movies.

Thanks for the info, I'll consider any advice here and I appreciate your response.

May be the subs were turned up too high. However I do agree that a lot of subs do not sound very good, that includes a lot of speakers also.

I'm lucky, as I don't have to speaker shop, as I design and build all my own speakers and always have.

I do not watch many movies either, but I do think analog only systems like yours sell you short, especially of they don't have good digital connectivity. I think AV preamps are a big advance. There are a huge number of streams out there to grab. The BPO have a wonderful site with an archive of their concerts going back to the Karajan years. There is also Medici TV that I also subscribe to and the Metropolitan Opera. On YouTube premium there are a vast number of concerts and recitals. So having a picture with your music is a huge advance in my view, and enhances the musical experience. I personally think that for most purposes audio only systems have had their day, even for music lovers like you and I. So I went down the AV route 20 years ago, and don't regret that decision at all. All my three systems are AV. My main listening room is 7.2.4 and our great room 3.1, and our family room 2.2. I think audio and video are "linked at the hip" now, and never to separate except for auto sound. Since the AV era really got going, I have embraced it fully, with no regrets. Just being a music lover does not exclude you from the AV world at all, but very much the reverse. These days there are AV preamps that are of equal quality to your Bryston.

 

[Gio-G]

May be the subs were turned up too high. However I do agree that a lot of subs do not sound very good, that includes a lot of speakers also.

I'm lucky, as I don't have to speaker shop, as I design and build all my own speakers and always have.

I do not watch many movies either, but I do think analog only systems like yours sell you short, especially of they don't have good digital connectivity. I think AV preamps are a big advance. There are a huge number of streams out there to grab. The BPO have a wonderful site with an archive of their concerts going back to the Karajan years. There is also Medici TV that I also subscribe to and the Metropolitan Opera. On YouTube premium there are a vast number of concerts and recitals. So having a picture with your music is a huge advance in my view, and enhances the musical experience. I personally think that for most purposes audio only systems have had their day, even for music lovers like you and I. So I went down the AV route 20 years ago, and don't regret that decision at all. All my three systems are AV. My main listening room is 7.2.4 and our great room 3.1, and our family room 2.2. I think audio and video are "linked at the hip" now, and never to separate except for auto sound. Since the AV era really got going, I have embraced it fully, with no regrets. Just being a music lover does not exclude you from the AV world at all, but very much the reverse. These days there are AV preamps that are of equal quality to your Bryston.

I'm not sure what you meant here. I don't have subs so there was nothing turned up too high and I haven't had any issues with poor sound quality. Just the opposite in fact. The New Perlisten speakers are phenomenal. I'm just looking too add a little more low end with a couple of subs.

I'm fine with my current system and really couldn't be happier I don't feel sold short at all. I'm not looking for new AV equipment or anything other than a two subwoofer addition down the road.
I'm simply not interested in streaming. I have plenty of music and plenty of avenues to get new stuff. I don't want or need my video and audio linked.

I don't watch a lot of TV and when I do, I can get stereo sound if I need it and don't require anything more.
UFC and college football are normally what I'll watch or pro tennis.I have a DVD player if I really want to watch a concert performance, and I rarely do that.
I've had 30 years to make changes but I've been very satisfied with everything. I have only upgraded/switched out certain pieces with the newer versions of the same. I understand your take, but I like what I have and TV is typically a distraction when I listen.

Anyway, back to the topic as what I just typed is a bit off the mark from my original question.

If I decide to add subs, I'll try to run them the way Perlisten and Arendal mention first and if that doesn't work I can try the MiniDSP route.

I assume the advice on the splitter you gave me was because you were not aware the BP-19's Fixed balanced could be changed to variable balanced? I think I understood that correctly.

Now that you know I can use another set of variable XLRs would you say I could at least try to run the main speakers full range and match the timing with the subs through their software and the Apps the subs provide?
If you don't know, that's OK, I'm just looking for a few opinions and options should I decide to buy a couple of subs.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not sure what you meant here. I don't have subs so there was nothing turned up too high and I haven't had any issues with poor sound quality. Just the opposite in fact. The New Perlisten speakers are phenomenal. I'm just looking too add a little more low end with a couple of subs.

I'm fine with my current system and really couldn't be happier I don't feel sold short at all. I'm not looking for new AV equipment or anything other than a two subwoofer addition down the road.
I'm simply not interested in streaming. I have plenty of music and plenty of avenues to get new stuff. I don't want or need my video and audio linked.

I don't watch a lot of TV and when I do, I can get stereo sound if I need it and don't require anything more.
UFC and college football are normally what I'll watch or pro tennis.I have a DVD player if I really want to watch a concert performance, and I rarely do that.
I've had 30 years to make changes but I've been very satisfied with everything. I have only upgraded/switched out certain pieces with the newer versions of the same. I understand your take, but I like what I have and TV is typically a distraction when I listen.

Anyway, back to the topic as what I just typed is a bit off the mark from my original question.

If I decide to add subs, I'll try to run them the way Perlisten and Arendal mention first and if that doesn't work I can try the MiniDSP route.

I assume the advice on the splitter you gave me was because you were not aware the BP-19's Fixed balanced could be changed to variable balanced? I think I understood that correctly.

Now that you know I can use another set of variable XLRs would you say I could at least try to run the main speakers full range and match the timing with the subs through their software and the Apps the subs provide?
If you don't know, that's OK, I'm just looking for a few opinions and options should I decide to buy a couple of subs.

Thanks for the reply.

I have no clue why I wrote the first sentence. Yes, you will have to run your Perlisten speakers full range, but that is not a bad thing and often a good thing. The reason it is some, actually most speakers are not capable in the last octave Yours start rolling off just below 70 Hz. But they will integrate with subs well. I do think a couple of subs will improve your system, depending in the type of music you listen to. If you listen mainly to vinyl, the improvement will be less impressive, as LPs roll off in the deep bass, to extend playing time.

 

[Gio-G]

I have no clue why I wrote the first sentence. Yes, you will have to run your Perlisten speakers full range, but that is not a bad thing and often a good thing. The reason it is some, actually most speakers are not capable in the last octave Yours start rolling off just below 70 Hz. But they will integrate with subs well. I do think a couple of subs will improve your system, depending in the type of music you listen to. If you listen mainly to vinyl, the improvement will be less impressive, as LPs roll off in the deep bass, to extend playing time.

LOL!
I was wondering if you were answering another member's question.

No worries.

I'm strictly CD here but I'll give it a try.

Thanks again!!

 

[ski2xblack]

I agree w/ lovin and the reps you spoke to, and TLS is steering you right. Pay close attention to his advice regarding bias to lower level settings (gain, not lpf settings), as having the subs too hot is unnatural sounding. They should compliment your mains but never draw attention to themselves otherwise if done correctly.

Are you calibrating by ear or do you have REW/Omnimic? Sub blending using some sort of rta gear makes quick work of it, while attempting the same by ear is far more tedious and inexact. It can be done, just more luck involved in getting it just right.

Subs WILL enhance your rig, and increase your pleasure, no added kit required. Even if you decide to pursue it further and go full Audioholic OCD, there are a few tricks far less expensive than miniDSP to try first.

 

[Gio-G]

I agree w/ lovin and the reps you spoke to, and TLS is steering you right. Pay close attention to his advice regarding bias to lower level settings (gain, not lpf settings), as having the subs too hot is unnatural sounding. They should compliment your mains but never draw attention to themselves otherwise if done correctly.

Are you calibrating by ear or do you have REW/Omnimic? Sub blending using some sort of rta gear makes quick work of it, while attempting the same by ear is far more tedious and inexact. It can be done, just more luck involved in getting it just right.

Subs WILL enhance your rig, and increase your pleasure, no added kit required. Even if you decide to pursue it further and go full Audioholic OCD, there are a few tricks far less expensive than miniDSP to try first.

Hey,
Thank you for the response.

Unfortunately, I'm ignorant/ill informed as to exactly what you are talking about here (in bold within your response). You guys seem to have a background in, or at minimum, a very good understanding of this stuff. I'm not in that camp and I'm here and on ASR because the knowledge and common sense. I think TSL and I live in the same state here in the US which may end up helpful should I decide to go with subs.

I don't know how to do measurements, nor do I understand them. My preference is NOT to do anything by ear. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen especially if going from one recording to the next.

Ideally, I'd like my beautiful Perlisten S7Ts (I'm now biased) to do most of the work and run them full range and have the subs pickup the deepest bass only when they should. I don't want my house to sound like a "Rap Mobile" (no offense to rap lovers) where the bass dominates everything and shakes everything constantly. I would like to shake the house when the recording actually hits those sonic frequencies but only then.

Your last line is exactly what I want to try to do so you definitely know what I trying to accomplish.

This is all likely a year away as I just bought the new speakers 3 weeks ago and my wife has been extremely cool about the whole situation. The subs are certainly a consideration and I think they will add the final touch.

Had I not used my NHT 3.3s since 1999, I don't know that I'd miss any bass because I likely wouldn't have known it existed if that makes sense.

 

[ski2xblack]

Unfortunately, I'm ignorant/ill informed as to exactly what you are talking about here (in bold within your response)

Regarding levels, this part:

...I do find that most people turn up their subs too high which is not natural...

...as well as the other helpful suggestions he made. He packed *a lot* into his responses that some baseline knowledge would help you to recognize. I happen to agree with him on that specific point, felt it warranted emphasis.

Re rta kit, it's quite helpful for setup and calibration of subs. Since this is a bit off in the future, just something to think about for now.

Re "going full Audioholic OCD..." is only if you decide to do more extensive bass management. Again, cross that bridge if/when you come to it. The benefits of more elaborate bass management would be, potentially at least, better sub integration and slight improvements in modulation distortion and power allocation. You may not benefit significantly enough to warrant the extra hassle, based on your posted listening habits. If, on the other hand, you suddenly change into a headbanger, playing dub step party music at drunken party spls, then it may be wise to protect the Perlistens with a hpf as part of more elaborate bass management. There are far less expensive means to do that than a miniDSP.

 

[Gio-G]

Regarding levels, this part:

...as well as the other helpful suggestions he made. He packed *a lot* into his responses that some baseline knowledge would help you to recognize. I happen to agree with him on that specific point, felt it warranted emphasis.

Re rta kit, it's quite helpful for setup and calibration of subs. Since this is a bit off in the future, just something to think about for now.

Re "going full Audioholic OCD..." is only if you decide to do more extensive bass management. Again, cross that bridge if/when you come to it. The benefits of more elaborate bass management would be, potentially at least, better sub integration and slight improvements in modulation distortion and power allocation. You may not benefit significantly enough to warrant the extra hassle, based on your posted listening habits. If, on the other hand, you suddenly change into a headbanger, playing dub step party music at drunken party spls, then it may be wise to protect the Perlistens with a hpf as part of more elaborate bass management.

Thanks for some of the clarification. It looks like my thoughts on keeping the subs in a situation where they only expose themselves when they need to do so is a good line of thinking.

I checked TSLs avatar and we don't live far from each other so I can certainly throw out a call for help if I need to down the road if he's willing to meet up.

I'm extremely happy with my system and the measurements on the pieces I have that have been reviewed and posted. Moving to the new speakers definitely has improved the system a lot and I don't want to go backwards and I certainly don't want to make things more complicated.

I've looked at the Arendal 1723 S-1 subs and they seem like a nice fit. The Perlisten gear is wonderful but I'm not sure I want to spend another multiple K again.

Thanks to those that have responded!

You've all been helpful.