Small Room, Big SPL: What Subwoofer Should I Buy?

ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I like the Arendal rec.

It's important to consider the trade offs involved. Arendals wouldn't compromise dynamic range, but at the same time his small, multi-use room and listening style might suggest the superior polar and power response of coaxes as better overall solution. But relatively affordable and quite good KEFs for example would be a trade off or compromise when it comes to dynamic range (not just against Arendals but even with his current Monoliths).

"Good" is fairly attainable. "Good and loud" gets expensive. "Good, loud, and ideal for the situation/room" is the least compromised but probably the most expensive of all. Personally, with my own mere mortal's budget, "good and ideal for the room" get prioritized over "loud" when something needs to be sacrificed. Quality over quantity.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I would consider a vnf placement and let the workout area get what it gets.
That's exactly what I did in my garage/shop rig. Optimized for nearfield, pretty enjoyable when wrenching or tinkering elsewhere. Easier to pull off, minimal added expense.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Well, up to this point I've been trying to help with your stated problems, which were a) the need for subs, and b) addressing room modes. Starting from scratch is a whole different ballgame and order of magnitude greater expense.

So let's play that game. As always, it starts with the room. Yours is small and with similar dimensions, so problematic in terms of modes, and lots of room influence overall because of short distances involved. So if you can accommodate it, at least dual subs would be beneficial. Speakers with really smooth power response are key as well.

You appreciate it loud, so you want banger speakers, although the small room works in your favor in this case.

And you seem to listen in different spots rather than having a dedicated and specific mlp, so you want speakers with uniform response, and not only horizontally but also vertically, so they don't change whether you're sitting, standing, working out, etc.

All those considerations suggest possible choices that would check all the boxes. You mentioned Genelec. Good idea, if not for your wallet at least for an initial case study of speakers that check all the requisite boxes on your list. They do have models larger than nearfield monitors that would get loud. They use some of the best coaxial drivers, with really uniform response horizontally and vertically, so they're both room friendly and devoid of the "head in a vice" tiny sweet spot. They would sound good throughout the room. They are a thoroughly modern, fully active, dsp corrected designs with sota performance. Those would check all the boxes.

But they're kinda ugly, and not the only girl at the dance.

I would suggest taking a long, hard look at what Sigberg has to offer, they would check all the boxes too. Their "small" bookshelf models are real bangers. Good coaxes, fantastic performance overall, fully active, huge dynamic range, fuss-free sub integration using their subs, no extra processors or AVR upgrades required.

[edit: Ok, ok, THIS is the Sigberg setup I was thinking of, and whew, not cheap. That might keep it in the "case study" zone rather than a realistic option, but it is a very good case study to look at. Maybe you're wealthy enough for that. If not, what aspects are you willing to compromise on? SPL is the easiest compromise, as there are many less expensive speakers with excellent performance that would work well in your room/situation, they just won't get as loud.]

Compare such approaches to your Monoliths, which have relatively atrocious power response, particularly vertically. That, combined with the mode issues, means you get the sort of experience you've described upthread (sounds kinda ok in that one specific spot, but terrible elsewhere and huge variability throughout the room).

I guess it's up to you which path to take. But, no, don't get a lousy soundbar, please, for the love of music, don't do that!
When I searched for those Genelec's once again and took a look at the bigger cabinets for more SPL, I was disappointed by the prices, but not more when I googled the Sigberg setup. Seriously, is this alien technology or something? Never seen anything similar! But yes, they aren't cheap, at all. 16500euros for 2 bookshelf speakers and dual 12inch subwoofers.

I wouldn't want to compromise SPL, since it's one thing I crave the most from my system during music listening and movies. Imagine that a while ago I was eyeing PA speakers for my small room. I know, it's a crazy idea, but it would be easy SPL. PA speakers + PA subwoofers would be better than a lousy soundbar, I guess. But both, bad ideas, for sure.

What's your opinion on the following three slim options for LCR?

Aperion Audio Theatrus speakers seem to have high sensitivity (so no external amp to drive them) and an F3 at 60Hz or so (-3dB).
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Curious as to whether you have tried running the Monoliths full range without the subs or have you always used subs with them? Before considering starting from scratch, I would examine the performance of your current speakers more closely. Erin's review shows that the speakers do take well to equalization. The speakers should sound good (with EQ) on their own and just lack deep bass without subs. If you can get decent sound with just the main speakers then you have a good starting point. If not, then considering new speakers may not be a bad idea.

The F3 is on the high side and they roll off pretty fast. While most people cross subs around 80Hz, I would probably cross those higher, like 100Hz. Going higher might lead to localization of bass.

You did not mention budget but if you are in Europe have you considered Arendal? The make speakers capable of high SPL and wide dynamic range and have pretty solid bass response. If they offer free trials (free return shipping) in your area, that could be a no cost trial.
I haven't tried running the Monolith full range without subwoofers. I've thought about it, but since I'm increasing the volume at -10dB's or so, I wouldn't want to destroy the small woofers. I know it may sounds silly, but I've read that these speakers aren't made to produce deep bass at higher volumes. Correct me if I'm wrong, could I damage the Monolith by turning up the volume playing a bass-heavy song, while running them full range?

Arendal is great for us living in Europe, yes and they offer free trials. Which model would you suggest from that brand?
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
I like the Arendal rec.

It's important to consider the trade offs involved. Arendals wouldn't compromise dynamic range, but at the same time his small, multi-use room and listening style might suggest the superior polar and power response of coaxes as better overall solution. But relatively affordable and quite good KEFs for example would be a trade off or compromise when it comes to dynamic range (not just against Arendals but even with his current Monoliths).

"Good" is fairly attainable. "Good and loud" gets expensive. "Good, loud, and ideal for the situation/room" is the least compromised but probably the most expensive of all. Personally, with my own mere mortal's budget, "good and ideal for the room" get prioritized over "loud" when something needs to be sacrificed. Quality over quantity.
Most sane people would prioritize "good and ideal for the room". I prioritize "loud", so KEFs wouldn't get me there, as I've read.

Arendal on the other hand, they seem to take a ton of RMS wattage, but I don't know which line-up of that brand you're talking about.

For example, this https://arendalsound.com/product/1610-slim-8/tech/ slim option, has an F3 of 68Hz and can take up to 300w RMS. However, Arendal speakers aren't the most sensitive once out there. I see this as a disadvantage.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
I would consider a vnf placement and let the workout area get what it gets.
I googled this vnf placement and couldn't find any good information. A person on AVS forums said that people get those https://www.thomann.gr/behringer_b1200d_pro.htm?__cTr=6c26a550-b5bb-4ca0-b251-d9759cbaad97&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ3IiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6Mn0=&reload=1#bewertung#bewertung for some weird reason to me.

Does it have to do with placing subwoofers nearfield, facing you, etc?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Can't really comment on the models you mention. I will say it's easy to waste money on essentially lateral moves. It's better to learn to love what you got than do lateral moves. Your current speakers aren't horrible or anything. The XTZ look interesting.

And you asked about running your existing speakers full range. The thing is they are THX certified and adhere to that recipe. They have no pretense of bass extension whatsoever, so they need subs. They are sealed, so not as prone to damage if you let 'em run full range, but they'll still drop off below 100hz. And you could still damage them if you really blast it.

As for the Sigberg setup, it's not alien tech, but it is pretty much sota fully active dsp massaged using great drivers and aimed at unlimited dynamics AND finesse. You don't even need an AVR, just sources for those, although they're strictly a two channel setup. Let's chalk them up to "case study" use for now.

Is it crazy to consider PA speakers for the sake of spl? Yeah. Most kinda suck (nonlinear, need a grip of eq to tame their unruliness, still lack bass extension, voiced for far-field use, huge size, etc.) But I get it. I built a pair of Fusion12 Tempests from diysg a bit over a decade ago to scratch that itch, and those are designed for domestic settings (full bsc, very linear, nice warm sound, don't need any eq at all, a very well done design by the late Jeff Bagby), sort of the ultimate garage speakers IMO. They kick ass. But I don't really exploit their spl capabilities, pretty far from it. I like not suffering from tinnitus, and you should too. Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible.

The low-ish sensitivity of some of the Arendals is Hoffman's Iron Law in action. The bookshelf models that James has tested (1610 bookshelf for example) dig quite deep, which goes hand in hand with lower sensitivity. They're still capable of getting loud, just require more power to do it.

"vnf" as William referred to is just near-field listening. Near field is kinda like cheating. It's easier to achieve "loud" because you're close to the speakers, and also has less room influence because you get more direct sound than reflected sound by that close proximity. Sub integration is the same as mid- or far-field, but having the sub right next to you might sidestep some of the room-related issues. It's just comparably cheap and easier to get a reference grade experience in the near field.
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I googled this vnf placement and couldn't find any good information. A person on AVS forums said that people get those https://www.thomann.gr/behringer_b1200d_pro.htm?__cTr=6c26a550-b5bb-4ca0-b251-d9759cbaad97&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ3IiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6Mn0=&reload=1#bewertung#bewertung for some weird reason to me.

Does it have to do with placing subwoofers nearfield, facing you, etc?
Yes exactly. It basically means placing the sub/s directly behind the MLP. This can help in dealing with FR issues caused by the
room/placement. What it might not help with, is listening in other places. But, in a small room such as yours, that may be irrelevant. It also may work out just fine. I would definitely try it before spending any money. Who knows, you might just fall in love with your system.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the reply. The room is small and for those gigantic ported subwoofers there were only two spots that I could place them. Now, you may wonder, why I bought them in the first place? They were cheap, they were output monsters and I didn't have a clue about quality bass, nulls etc..

Which subwoofer(s) would you get if you were in my shoes?
Not in Europe but BK Elec, Arendal, SVS, XTZ come to mind. I would have kept the Monoliths and reworked the room to position them better. Your spl requirements are quite high and you're risking some hearing health....and makes me wonder if that Denon's amp section is sufficient.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Can't really comment on the models you mention. I will say it's easy to waste money on essentially lateral moves. It's better to learn to love what you got than do lateral moves. Your current speakers aren't horrible or anything. The XTZ look interesting.

And you asked about running your existing speakers full range. The thing is they are THX certified and adhere to that recipe. They have no pretense of bass extension whatsoever, so they need subs. They are sealed, so not as prone to damage if you let 'em run full range, but they'll still drop off below 100hz. And you could still damage them if you really blast it.

As for the Sigberg setup, it's not alien tech, but it is pretty much sota fully active dsp massaged using great drivers and aimed at unlimited dynamics AND finesse. You don't even need an AVR, just sources for those, although they're strictly a two channel setup. Let's chalk them up to "case study" use for now.

Is it crazy to consider PA speakers for the sake of spl? Yeah. Most kinda suck (nonlinear, need a grip of eq to tame their unruliness, still lack bass extension, voiced for far-field use, huge size, etc.) But I get it. I built a pair of Fusion12 Tempests from diysg a bit over a decade ago to scratch that itch, and those are designed for domestic settings (full bsc, very linear, nice warm sound, don't need any eq at all, a very well done design by the late Jeff Bagby), sort of the ultimate garage speakers IMO. They kick ass. But I don't really exploit their spl capabilities, pretty far from it. I like not suffering from tinnitus, and you should too. Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible.

The low-ish sensitivity of some of the Arendals is Hoffman's Iron Law in action. The bookshelf models that James has tested (1610 bookshelf for example) dig quite deep, which goes hand in hand with lower sensitivity. They're still capable of getting loud, just require more power to do it.

"vnf" as William referred to is just near-field listening. Near field is kinda like cheating. It's easier to achieve "loud" because you're close to the speakers, and also has less room influence because you get more direct sound than reflected sound by that close proximity. Sub integration is the same as mid- or far-field, but having the sub right next to you might sidestep some of the room-related issues. It's just comparably cheap and easier to get a reference grade experience in the near field.
The XTZ on-wall speakers wouldn't actually be a waste of money, because I can just sell my Monoliths for almost the same amount of money the XTZ cost. It's good to hear that my current Monoliths aren't horrible. But I need to hold my horses and maybe try some EQ just like ErinAudioCorner mentions. Problem is, I have no knowledge to do that, in order to tame the speaker for a better result.

Running my Monoliths at full range would be really easy, just pressing three buttons on my AVR. However, I have no clue what "blast them" really means. Is there a volume number like at -10dB's from reference at which my speakers would be safe even if they play bass-heavy scenes/music with no crossover limit? I can't even think about those small 6.5inch woofers that they have, playing the Edge of Tomorrow intro loud..

I understand now, that's why any Arendal speakers don't have sensitivity numbers above 90dB's. The 1528 Center 8 looks like a beast of a speaker, with an F3 of 35Hz, 85dB's sensitivity and 700watts of max RMS power. This would easily reach reference levels in my room. Those crazy Norwegians!!

In order to try that "vnf" though, I need subwoofers. And for now at least, I only own one 10inch Logitech Z-5500 subwoofer which I connected to a NEC amplifier and plugged it with an RCA to my AVR. This subwoofer setup is really bad, no limiters, only 25Watts of power and it sounds like an one-note box :/
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Yes exactly. It basically means placing the sub/s directly behind the MLP. This can help in dealing with FR issues caused by the
room/placement. What it might not help with, is listening in other places. But, in a small room such as yours, that may be irrelevant. It also may work out just fine. I would definitely try it before spending any money. Who knows, you might just fall in love with your system.
In my small room, a free spot where I can place one subwoofer is almost 5feet from the MLP. That'll do, I guess. However, I need to get myself some new subwoofers.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Not in Europe but BK Elec, Arendal, SVS, XTZ come to mind. I would have kept the Monoliths and reworked the room to position them better. Your spl requirements are quite high and you're risking some hearing health....and makes me wonder if that Denon's amp section is sufficient.
BK Elec subwoofers are in the UK and they got out of Europe, so I need to pay crazy custom fees to get them to my country. But Arendal, SVS, Klipsch and XTZ are really common here. I can also have a free trial on the Arendal speakers/subwoofers and return them if I don't like them.
 
K

kini

Full Audioholic
Hello Audioholics,

I recently sold my dual Monolith 13s because they were simply too large for my small 15 × 13 ft room. I couldn't position them properly, which resulted in disappointing performance. They also produced a lot of port chuffing because I used to crank the volume up but still wasn't getting any bass to my ears. On top of that, I couldn't justify their size for the relatively few movie scenes that extend below 25 Hz.

Usage:
  • Movies
  • Bass-heavy music (hip-hop, EDM, techno, and rock)
Listening habits:
The louder, the better.

Current setup:
  • Denon X-2700H
  • Monolith 365T
  • Monolith 365C
My main goal is to maximize output from about 25–30 Hz up to 100 Hz while keeping the enclosure reasonably compact. I live in Europe, so brands like RSL, PSA, and JTR aren't readily available.

To be honest, I no longer care much about anything below 25 Hz. What matters most to me is strong output between 25–30 Hz and 100 Hz. Ideally, I'd like to achieve around 118–120 dB (or more) in that range.

Another priority is having smooth bass response throughout the room, not just at the main listening position. I also use this room as a home gym, so I'd like the bass to sound good while I'm standing and blasting music.

I'm open to any suggestions. Should I go with sealed subs, ported subs, or even a DIY build? I haven't set a budget yet, so I'm interested in hearing all recommendations.

Thanks in advance!
Take a look at Ascendo for both speakers and subs. Germany based location.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
The Monoliths are THX certified so I doubt you would be able to damage them with your AVR running them full range, unless you push the amplifier into distortion. It's not matter of matching SPL levels, though. It's a matter of judging the sound quality, which can be better achieved at lower volumes anyway. Above a certain SPL it gets difficult to judge speaker characteristics accurately.

For EQ, you need to check whether you can manually adjust the EQ on the Denon. Most with Audessey also have a manual mode. You can try and use Erin's recommended settings or for the more adventurous use a measurements microphone and REW software to see what your specific room needs.

The 1528 would be an end-game speaker for me but the 1723 is also THX certified and much more affordable. Shady reviewed the Monitors here. All depends what your budget is and if the Monoliths do not work out.

I would also warn about extended high SPL sessions. I went to a lot of rock concerts in my youth and am experiencing hearing loss at 65, when I have more time and money to invest in this hobby. The trade off is not worth it.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
The Monoliths are THX certified so I doubt you would be able to damage them with your AVR running them full range, unless you push the amplifier into distortion. It's not matter of matching SPL levels, though. It's a matter of judging the sound quality, which can be better achieved at lower volumes anyway. Above a certain SPL it gets difficult to judge speaker characteristics accurately.

For EQ, you need to check whether you can manually adjust the EQ on the Denon. Most with Audessey also have a manual mode. You can try and use Erin's recommended settings or for the more adventurous use a measurements microphone and REW software to see what your specific room needs.

The 1528 would be an end-game speaker for me but the 1723 is also THX certified and much more affordable. Shady reviewed the Monitors here. All depends what your budget is and if the Monoliths do not work out.

I would also warn about extended high SPL sessions. I went to a lot of rock concerts in my youth and am experiencing hearing loss at 65, when I have more time and money to invest in this hobby. The trade off is not worth it.
They look to be really good speakers, and I think would cross to a sub at 80 Hz very well. And yes, they would tolerate being run full range and supplemented with the subs.
 
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