Small Room, Big SPL: What Subwoofer Should I Buy?

ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I like the Arendal rec.

It's important to consider the trade offs involved. Arendals wouldn't compromise dynamic range, but at the same time his small, multi-use room and listening style might suggest the superior polar and power response of coaxes as better overall solution. But relatively affordable and quite good KEFs for example would be a trade off or compromise when it comes to dynamic range (not just against Arendals but even with his current Monoliths).

"Good" is fairly attainable. "Good and loud" gets expensive. "Good, loud, and ideal for the situation/room" is the least compromised but probably the most expensive of all. Personally, with my own mere mortal's budget, "good and ideal for the room" get prioritized over "loud" when something needs to be sacrificed. Quality over quantity.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I would consider a vnf placement and let the workout area get what it gets.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I would consider a vnf placement and let the workout area get what it gets.
That's exactly what I did in my garage/shop rig. Optimized for nearfield, pretty enjoyable when wrenching or tinkering elsewhere. Easier to pull off, minimal added expense.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Well, up to this point I've been trying to help with your stated problems, which were a) the need for subs, and b) addressing room modes. Starting from scratch is a whole different ballgame and order of magnitude greater expense.

So let's play that game. As always, it starts with the room. Yours is small and with similar dimensions, so problematic in terms of modes, and lots of room influence overall because of short distances involved. So if you can accommodate it, at least dual subs would be beneficial. Speakers with really smooth power response are key as well.

You appreciate it loud, so you want banger speakers, although the small room works in your favor in this case.

And you seem to listen in different spots rather than having a dedicated and specific mlp, so you want speakers with uniform response, and not only horizontally but also vertically, so they don't change whether you're sitting, standing, working out, etc.

All those considerations suggest possible choices that would check all the boxes. You mentioned Genelec. Good idea, if not for your wallet at least for an initial case study of speakers that check all the requisite boxes on your list. They do have models larger than nearfield monitors that would get loud. They use some of the best coaxial drivers, with really uniform response horizontally and vertically, so they're both room friendly and devoid of the "head in a vice" tiny sweet spot. They would sound good throughout the room. They are a thoroughly modern, fully active, dsp corrected designs with sota performance. Those would check all the boxes.

But they're kinda ugly, and not the only girl at the dance.

I would suggest taking a long, hard look at what Sigberg has to offer, they would check all the boxes too. Their "small" bookshelf models are real bangers. Good coaxes, fantastic performance overall, fully active, huge dynamic range, fuss-free sub integration using their subs, no extra processors or AVR upgrades required.

[edit: Ok, ok, THIS is the Sigberg setup I was thinking of, and whew, not cheap. That might keep it in the "case study" zone rather than a realistic option, but it is a very good case study to look at. Maybe you're wealthy enough for that. If not, what aspects are you willing to compromise on? SPL is the easiest compromise, as there are many less expensive speakers with excellent performance that would work well in your room/situation, they just won't get as loud.]

Compare such approaches to your Monoliths, which have relatively atrocious power response, particularly vertically. That, combined with the mode issues, means you get the sort of experience you've described upthread (sounds kinda ok in that one specific spot, but terrible elsewhere and huge variability throughout the room).

I guess it's up to you which path to take. But, no, don't get a lousy soundbar, please, for the love of music, don't do that!
When I searched for those Genelec's once again and took a look at the bigger cabinets for more SPL, I was disappointed by the prices, but not more when I googled the Sigberg setup. Seriously, is this alien technology or something? Never seen anything similar! But yes, they aren't cheap, at all. 16500euros for 2 bookshelf speakers and dual 12inch subwoofers.

I wouldn't want to compromise SPL, since it's one thing I crave the most from my system during music listening and movies. Imagine that a while ago I was eyeing PA speakers for my small room. I know, it's a crazy idea, but it would be easy SPL. PA speakers + PA subwoofers would be better than a lousy soundbar, I guess. But both, bad ideas, for sure.

What's your opinion on the following three slim options for LCR?

Aperion Audio Theatrus speakers seem to have high sensitivity (so no external amp to drive them) and an F3 at 60Hz or so (-3dB).
 
D

Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
Curious as to whether you have tried running the Monoliths full range without the subs or have you always used subs with them? Before considering starting from scratch, I would examine the performance of your current speakers more closely. Erin's review shows that the speakers do take well to equalization. The speakers should sound good (with EQ) on their own and just lack deep bass without subs. If you can get decent sound with just the main speakers then you have a good starting point. If not, then considering new speakers may not be a bad idea.

The F3 is on the high side and they roll off pretty fast. While most people cross subs around 80Hz, I would probably cross those higher, like 100Hz. Going higher might lead to localization of bass.

You did not mention budget but if you are in Europe have you considered Arendal? The make speakers capable of high SPL and wide dynamic range and have pretty solid bass response. If they offer free trials (free return shipping) in your area, that could be a no cost trial.
I haven't tried running the Monolith full range without subwoofers. I've thought about it, but since I'm increasing the volume at -10dB's or so, I wouldn't want to destroy the small woofers. I know it may sounds silly, but I've read that these speakers aren't made to produce deep bass at higher volumes. Correct me if I'm wrong, could I damage the Monolith by turning up the volume playing a bass-heavy song, while running them full range?

Arendal is great for us living in Europe, yes and they offer free trials. Which model would you suggest from that brand?
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
I like the Arendal rec.

It's important to consider the trade offs involved. Arendals wouldn't compromise dynamic range, but at the same time his small, multi-use room and listening style might suggest the superior polar and power response of coaxes as better overall solution. But relatively affordable and quite good KEFs for example would be a trade off or compromise when it comes to dynamic range (not just against Arendals but even with his current Monoliths).

"Good" is fairly attainable. "Good and loud" gets expensive. "Good, loud, and ideal for the situation/room" is the least compromised but probably the most expensive of all. Personally, with my own mere mortal's budget, "good and ideal for the room" get prioritized over "loud" when something needs to be sacrificed. Quality over quantity.
Most sane people would prioritize "good and ideal for the room". I prioritize "loud", so KEFs wouldn't get me there, as I've read.

Arendal on the other hand, they seem to take a ton of RMS wattage, but I don't know which line-up of that brand you're talking about.

For example, this https://arendalsound.com/product/1610-slim-8/tech/ slim option, has an F3 of 68Hz and can take up to 300w RMS. However, Arendal speakers aren't the most sensitive once out there. I see this as a disadvantage.
 
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Dimitris_dsgg

Enthusiast
I would consider a vnf placement and let the workout area get what it gets.
I googled this vnf placement and couldn't find any good information. A person on AVS forums said that people get those https://www.thomann.gr/behringer_b1200d_pro.htm?__cTr=6c26a550-b5bb-4ca0-b251-d9759cbaad97&shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ3IiLCJsYW5ndWFnZSI6Mn0=&reload=1#bewertung#bewertung for some weird reason to me.

Does it have to do with placing subwoofers nearfield, facing you, etc?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Can't really comment on the models you mention. I will say it's easy to waste money on essentially lateral moves. It's better to learn to love what you got than do lateral moves. Your current speakers aren't horrible or anything.

And you asked about running your existing speakers full range. The thing is they are THX certified and adhere to that recipe. They have no pretense of bass extension whatsoever, so they need subs. They are sealed, so not as prone to damage if you let 'em run full range, but they'll still drop off below 100hz. And you could still damage them if you really blast it.

As for the Sigberg setup, it's not alien tech, but it is pretty much sota fully active dsp massaged using great drivers and aimed at unlimited dynamics AND finesse. You don't even need an AVR, just sources for those, although they're strictly a two channel setup. Let's chalk them up to "case study" use for now.

Is it crazy to consider PA speakers for the sake of spl? Yeah. Most kinda suck (nonlinear, need a grip of eq to tame their unruliness, still lack bass extension, voiced for far-field use, etc.) But I get it. I built a pair of Fusion12 Tempests from diysg a bit over a decade ago to scratch that itch, and those are designed for domestic settings (full bsc, very linear, nice warm sound, don't need any eq at all, a very well done design by the late Jeff Bagby), sort of the ultimate garage speakers IMO. They kick ass.

But I don't really exploit their spl capabilities, pretty far from it. I like not suffering from tinnitus, and you should too. Hearing damage is cumulative and irreversible.
 
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