Small Room, Big SPL: What Subwoofer Should I Buy?

[Dimitris_dsgg]

Hello Audioholics,

I recently sold my dual Monolith 13s because they were simply too large for my small 15 × 13 ft room. I couldn't position them properly, which resulted in disappointing performance. They also produced a lot of port chuffing because I used to crank the volume up but still wasn't getting any bass to my ears. On top of that, I couldn't justify their size for the relatively few movie scenes that extend below 25 Hz.

Usage:

• Movies
• Bass-heavy music (hip-hop, EDM, techno, and rock)

Listening habits:
The louder, the better.

Current setup:

• Denon X-2700H
• Monolith 365T
• Monolith 365C

My main goal is to maximize output from about 25–30 Hz up to 100 Hz while keeping the enclosure reasonably compact. I live in Europe, so brands like RSL, PSA, and JTR aren't readily available.

To be honest, I no longer care much about anything below 25 Hz. What matters most to me is strong output between 25–30 Hz and 100 Hz. Ideally, I'd like to achieve around 118–120 dB (or more) in that range.

Another priority is having smooth bass response throughout the room, not just at the main listening position. I also use this room as a home gym, so I'd like the bass to sound good while I'm standing and blasting music.

I'm open to any suggestions. Should I go with sealed subs, ported subs, or even a DIY build? I haven't set a budget yet, so I'm interested in hearing all recommendations.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ski2xblack]

You want concert level spls and smooth response in a very space constrained and modally challenged room. You may be forced to reel in expectations somewhat. Where are you willing to compromise?

How extensively were you able to play with placement with the dual monolith subs? That room with its similar dimensions is problematic, and you already tried what would be our first suggestions (dual subs, placement).

Would smaller sealed subs open up placement options previously unavailable? Could you live with such subs performance limits relative to your prior subs? The Monolith subs are quite good performers.

SVS has some of the more compact sealed subs, and if your market is like NA, available from retailers, so you could give them a try and return without much hassle if they don't work out.

The Hsu TN1 is a somewhat taller and considerably shallower in depth which may offer more placement options for you. They're still on the large side, seeming overkill for such a small room, but on par with the Monoliths.

DIY would open you up to even more cab customization in a similar vein as the Hsu, or to a trio or quad smaller sealed subs-if you could fit them into your space.

 

[mx416]

I have a hard time believing two mono 13s couldn't pressurize that room to extreme levels. The small room is an issue as mentioned above with modally challenges but placement should somewhat fix that.

Does the X-2700H have independent sub pre-outs? I have a feeling the subs may have been canceling each other.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

You want concert level spls and smooth response in a very space constrained and modally challenged room. You may be forced to reel in expectations somewhat. Where are you willing to compromise?

How extensively were you able to play with placement with the dual monolith subs? That room with its similar dimensions is problematic, and you already tried what would be our first suggestions (dual subs, placement).

Would smaller sealed subs open up placement options previously unavailable? Could you live with such subs performance limits relative to your prior subs? The Monolith subs are quite good performers.

SVS has some of the more compact sealed subs, and if your market is like NA, available from retailers, so you could give them a try and return without much hassle if they don't work out.

The Hsu TN1 is a somewhat taller and considerably shallower in depth which may offer more placement options for you. They're still on the large side, seeming overkill for such a small room, but on par with the Monoliths.

DIY would open you up to even more cab customization in a similar vein as the Hsu, or to a trio or quad smaller sealed subs-if you could fit them into your space.

Thanks for the reply!

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to play with placement with the dual Monolith subs. I feel that this is the reason I wasn't getting good bass even in the MLP. There were songs that hit really hard when I was in a particular height or place in the room and when I moved away I couldn't hear any bass.

Smaller subwoofers (sealed or ported) would open up placement options previously unavailable for sure. If the subwoofer box is like 15x15x15inch I can go with 2, 3 or even 4 of them. Two of them could be placed in diagonal corners (I've heard that this setup can be quite good).

I have access to every SVS subwoofer, but sadly, if I want to order something from HSU I need to pay custom fees and international shipping which can double the cost.

As for the DIY, I've seen the Audioholics review of this sealed kit https://www.soundimports.eu/en/css-sdx12-sealed-kit.html?ss_dev=true&ss_pdp=3 . It seems like a quite capable subwoofer, but it lacks some mid-bass.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

I have a hard time believing two mono 13s couldn't pressurize that room to extreme levels. The small room is an issue as mentioned above with modally challenges but placement should somewhat fix that.

Does the X-2700H have independent sub pre-outs? I have a feeling the subs may have been canceling each other.

I know it sounds crazy that two of those Monoliths couldn't pressurize my rather small room. However, I wasn't able to play with placement with those gigantic dual subwoofers. There were only two spots fitting them, so I just placed them there without any subwoofer-crawl method or anything.

No, the X-2700H doesn't feature independent subwoofer pre-outs. While it has two physical subwoofer outputs, they are internally split. I could get a mini dsp 2x4 for that?

 

[ski2xblack]

Yeah, it seems the room, placement, and insufficient calibration all conspired to give you deep nulls where you listen from. Too bad you already sold the Monoliths, a tweak of the phase control or placement may have salvaged them. But they were too big, placement options too restricted, and they're already gone, so no sense in sweating it now.

If an array of ssmaller subs is in the cards, it seems a valid path to pursue. More subs with more optimal placement will definitely provide more effective modal smoothing, before any corrective eq is applied. And your small room justifies the space savings of going sealed. Small rooms load up, with cabin gain kicking in at 35-40hz, which is quite complimentary to the shallower roll off inherent to sealed subs, particularly 12's of decent pedigree, not requiring heavy handed headroom robbing eq to get deep extension in-room. Three or four of them should bring copious headroom from 25-30hz on up.

The Denon lacks independent sub tweakability. Subs (or sub amps if you pursue DIY) with sufficient built in calibration tools like variable phase controls might allow you to avoid the expense of a miniDSP via manual tweaking. Those miniDSPs are so expensive it may be more cost effective to swap to a higher tier AVR that has multi-sub eq of some sort instead. Start with the subs, and cross that bridge when you come to it.

 

[ski2xblack]

For size and placement flexibility, I like that sdx-12 kit you linked upthread better than the Dayton 1500s that you asked about in the other thread, which are a bit larger, and probably a notch below in performance. Those sdx-12 kits look like a lot of sub in about the smallest possible package. Performance wise, they can hang with commercial offerings like SVS sb3000.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

Yeah, it seems the room, placement, and insufficient calibration all conspired to give you deep nulls where you listen from. Too bad you already sold the Monoliths, a tweak of the phase control or placement may have salvaged them. But they were too big, placement options too restricted, and they're already gone, so no sense in sweating it now.

If an array of ssmaller subs is in the cards, it seems a valid path to pursue. More subs with more optimal placement will definitely provide more effective modal smoothing, before any corrective eq is applied. And your small room justifies the space savings of going sealed. Small rooms load up, with cabin gain kicking in at 35-40hz, which is quite complimentary to the shallower roll off inherent to sealed subs, particularly 12's of decent pedigree, not requiring heavy handed headroom robbing eq to get deep extension in-room. Three or four of them should bring copious headroom from 25-30hz on up.

The Denon lacks independent sub tweakability. Subs (or sub amps if you pursue DIY) with sufficient built in calibration tools like variable phase controls might allow you to avoid the expense of a miniDSP via manual tweaking. Those miniDSPs are so expensive it may be more cost effective to swap to a higher tier AVR that has multi-sub eq of some sort instead. Start with the subs, and cross that bridge when you come to it.

Deep nulls for sure, just like you said.
There were particular songs that sounded truly amazing at particular spots. So, I knew that I had to go and stand at position x to listen to the x song etc. Pretty pathetic, I know. I never experienced a more complete, natural bass response in my room.

If I could achieve 115dB's (obviously the higher SPL the better for me) across the room, from 25-30Hz up to 100Hz, it would be awesome.

To be honest with you, I'd like to upgrade my AVR. That way, I could even have external amp to drive my Monolith LCR channel a bit louder and cleaner. However, that Mini DSP would cost me 269euros https://www.soundimports.eu/en/minidsp-2x4-hd-boxed.html while a new AVR would be like 1200euros.

For size and placement flexibility, I like that sdx-12 kit you linked upthread better than the Dayton 1500s that you asked about in the other thread, which are a bit larger, and probably a notch below in performance. Those sdx-12 kits look like a lot of sub in about the smallest possible package. Performance wise, they can hang with commercial offerings like SVS sb3000.

I asked about thee Dayton newer budget subwoofer, the CS1200 from the classic lineup, which is supposedly a little bit better than the Dayton 1500. https://www.soundimports.eu/en/dayton-audio-cs1200-black.html I emailed Dayton and they told me that this would achieve higher SPL than the older 1500 model. Not sure though, how two, three or even four of those CS1200 would sound in my room.

As for the SDX12 sealed kit vs the SB-3000, I don't really know why Audioholics review also mentions that the SDX12 can outperform the SVS sub. Judging by the measurements, the SDX12 is only stronger at frequencies below 31.5Hz. But then again, I emailed CSS and mentioned that those measurements state the 2nd harmonic distortion, where the SB-3000 go to 3rd at higher SPL. I can't translate that since I'm not experienced at all when it comes to sound

Last but not least, European subwoofer prices are weird:

• SDX12: 750euros
• SB-3000R: 1700euros
• SB-3000: 1600euros
• SB-1000pro: 750euros
• PB-1000pro: 1000euros
• Dayton CS1200: 330euros
• Arendal 1961 1S: 1000euros
• Arendal 1961 1V: 1100 euros
• Arendal 1723 1S: 1700euros
• XTZ 12.17Edge: 750euros

If you have any other model/brand to suggest or see their price, just tell me, I'll do that for you. Klipsch, SVS, Arendal and SVS are widely available here in Europe.

 

[TLS Guy]

Deep nulls for sure, just like you said.
There were particular songs that sounded truly amazing at particular spots. So, I knew that I had to go and stand at position x to listen to the x song etc. Pretty pathetic, I know. I never experienced a more complete, natural bass response in my room.

If I could achieve 115dB's (obviously the higher SPL the better for me) across the room, from 25-30Hz up to 100Hz, it would be awesome.

To be honest with you, I'd like to upgrade my AVR. That way, I could even have external amp to drive my Monolith LCR channel a bit louder and cleaner. However, that Mini DSP would cost me 269euros https://www.soundimports.eu/en/minidsp-2x4-hd-boxed.html while a new AVR would be like 1200euros.



I asked about thee Dayton newer budget subwoofer, the CS1200 from the classic lineup, which is supposedly a little bit better than the Dayton 1500. https://www.soundimports.eu/en/dayton-audio-cs1200-black.html I emailed Dayton and they told me that this would achieve higher SPL than the older 1500 model. Not sure though, how two, three or even four of those CS1200 would sound in my room.

As for the SDX12 sealed kit vs the SB-3000, I don't really know why Audioholics review also mentions that the SDX12 can outperform the SVS sub. Judging by the measurements, the SDX12 is only stronger at frequencies below 31.5Hz. But then again, I emailed CSS and mentioned that those measurements state the 2nd harmonic distortion, where the SB-3000 go to 3rd at higher SPL. I can't translate that since I'm not experienced at all when it comes to sound

Last but not least, European subwoofer prices are weird:

• SDX12: 750euros
• SB-3000R: 1700euros
• SB-3000: 1600euros
• SB-1000pro: 750euros
• PB-1000pro: 1000euros
• Dayton CS1200: 330euros
• Arendal 1961 1S: 1000euros
• Arendal 1961 1V: 1100 euros
• Arendal 1723 1S: 1700euros
• XTZ 12.17Edge: 750euros

If you have any other model/brand to suggest or see their price, just tell me, I'll do that for you. Klipsch, SVS, Arendal and SVS are widely available here in Europe.

I think you problem may well be your main speakers and NOT the subs. We have this common misconception that all the bass is produced by subs, and in fact very little of it is. The bass range is 20 Hz to 400/500 Hz. So VERY little of the bass range is produced by the subs. The most important and impactful part of the bass range is above sub range. Subs are the least important speakers in any system.

Unfortunately speaker manufacturers have failed to realize this absolute fact and we now have a lot, if not most speakers actually woefully bass deficient. That won't show on speaker tests, as it would blow the speakers up during the test. But I can tell you only the minority of speakers are designed correctly for proper reproduction of most music. It comes from a total misunderstanding of the power range of music from the public and worse "professional" speaker designers, which very, very few seem to be. This is a new phenomenon with many good vintage speakers being a better bet than a most new ones. The reason: - they were designed before this largely harmful sub craze.

 

[ski2xblack]

The OP's mains did pretty well in Erin's compression tests, at least below 500 hz (they got more unruly at higher freq when flogged hard). But your (Doc's) point is on to something, which brings me back to the room. The transition or Schrader freq is higher in small rooms, well above sub range, so the mains are indeed contributing to modal lumpiness.

 

[TLS Guy]

The OP's mains did pretty well in Erin's compression tests, at least below 500 hz (they got more unruly at higher freq when flogged hard). But your (Doc's) point is on to something, which brings me back to the room. The transition or Schrader freq is higher in small rooms, well above sub range, so the mains are indeed contributing to modal lumpiness.

Pretty well, if you add another proper bass section. Just look at this FR.

So, the speaker has a nasty peak between 110 AND 120 Hz, below the peak there is rapid roll off. So that speaker really requires crossing over at around 120 Hz. That needs to be custom crossover and not one in a AVR sub crossover. That is well in the ear sensitive range and really requires a custom active crossover. It is not really possible to cross that sub over to subs scattered about the room.

With the OPs plans, that system is not going to have a good natural bass. This is just the sort of issue I am addressing.

 

[Dimitris_dsgg]

I think you problem may well be your main speakers and NOT the subs. We have this common misconception that all the bass is produced by subs, and in fact very little of it is. The bass range is 20 Hz to 400/500 Hz. So VERY little of the bass range is produced by the subs. The most important and impactful part of the bass range is above sub range. Subs are the least important speakers in any system.

Unfortunately speaker manufacturers have failed to realize this absolute fact and we now have a lot, if not most speakers actually woefully bass deficient. That won't show on speaker tests, as it would blow the speakers up during the test. But I can tell you only the minority of speakers are designed correctly for proper reproduction of most music. It comes from a total misunderstanding of the power range of music from the public and worse "professional" speaker designers, which very, very few seem to be. This is a new phenomenon with many good vintage speakers being a better bet than a most new ones. The reason: - they were designed before this largely harmful sub craze.

I understand and thanks a lot for the reply. My Monolith speakers sound awful without any subwoofers.

But on the other hand, those speakers are meant to be crossed to subwoofers. At least that's what I'm reading. Most speakers of this kind are made for this exact reason. All home theater enthusiasts will own a subwoofer or two (or even more). I didn't know that I needed a custom crossover to cross them over at around 120Hz. I was using my AVR to cross them at 100Hz.

The OP's mains did pretty well in Erin's compression tests, at least below 500 hz (they got more unruly at higher freq when flogged hard). But your (Doc's) point is on to something, which brings me back to the room. The transition or Schrader freq is higher in small rooms, well above sub range, so the mains are indeed contributing to modal lumpiness.

In the future, I'd certainly swap my LCR for something slimmer and with more dynamic range.
But you guys will have me sell my Monolith 365T's and Monolith 365C and start over... But even then, I don't have a clue of what LCR and subwoofers to go for.

Three of my favourite options for LCR channels are:

AperionAudio Theatrus T80 Slim Long, 1.549,00 €

3-Way On-Wall Speaker High-End AMT Tweeter 2 x 8" Curv™ Woofer 880 x 280 x 130 mm 18,3 kg

www.hifipilot.de

Magnat Cinema Ultra LCR 100-THX Lautsprecher Stück | Neu, 468,00 €

THX Ultra 2-zertifizierter 2-Wege-Frontlautsprecher für perfektes Heimkino Extrem große 42-mm-High-Performance-Hochtonkalotte mit Waveguide-Frontplatte für

www.md-sound.de

XTZ InWall OnWall E-IW82

XTZ E-IW82 - THREE-WAY ON-WALL / IN-WALL CUSTOM INSTALLATION SPEAKER E-IW82 is a powerful and flexible three-way wall mounted customized speaker. As a professional multi-channel home theater sound system it ensures stunning sound effects while also achieving the demand for wall mounted...

xtzsound.eu

And then I'll also need subwoofers, I guess

 

[TLS Guy]

I understand and thanks a lot for the reply. My Monolith speakers sound awful without any subwoofers.

But on the other hand, those speakers are meant to be crossed to subwoofers. At least that's what I'm reading. Most speakers of this kind are made for this exact reason. All home theater enthusiasts will own a subwoofer or two (or even more). I didn't know that I needed a custom crossover to cross them over at around 120Hz. I was using my AVR to cross them at 100Hz.



In the future, I'd certainly swap my LCR for something slimmer and with more dynamic range.
But you guys will have me sell my Monolith 365T's and Monolith 365C and start over... But even then, I don't have a clue of what LCR and subwoofers to go for.

Three of my favourite options for LCR channels are:

AperionAudio Theatrus T80 Slim Long, 1.549,00 €

3-Way On-Wall Speaker High-End AMT Tweeter 2 x 8" Curv™ Woofer 880 x 280 x 130 mm 18,3 kg

www.hifipilot.de

Magnat Cinema Ultra LCR 100-THX Lautsprecher Stück | Neu, 468,00 €

THX Ultra 2-zertifizierter 2-Wege-Frontlautsprecher für perfektes Heimkino Extrem große 42-mm-High-Performance-Hochtonkalotte mit Waveguide-Frontplatte für

www.md-sound.de

XTZ InWall OnWall E-IW82

XTZ E-IW82 - THREE-WAY ON-WALL / IN-WALL CUSTOM INSTALLATION SPEAKER E-IW82 is a powerful and flexible three-way wall mounted customized speaker. As a professional multi-channel home theater sound system it ensures stunning sound effects while also achieving the demand for wall mounted...

xtzsound.eu

And then I'll also need subwoofers, I guess

Actually good speakers sound very good without a sub for most music. Special effects in movies are best handled by subs. The issue is that you need to get speakers that can cross in the range where the ear is not so critical, and that is around 80 Hz or less, so that means for good results you need speakers with an F3 60 Hz or lower, as well as a superb response above that.

Speakers should absolutely not sound horrible without a sub, but be very enjoyable.