Measurements not Revealing Significant Differences Between AVRs and AVPs

[TLS Guy]

As you know my Marantz AV 10 has revealed a significant improvement in SQ over my 7705 and 7706.

A year or so ago, I bought a 2 BD Atmos disc set for the BPO, it was to highlight their prowess in Atmos production.

When I played the discs on my Marantz 7705 I was very disappointed. The sound was weak and not "immersive" at all. Now the same programs were available to stream in Atmos from the BPO. The stream was significantly better than the discs.

So I put the discs assides as duds. I don't think I ever played them on the 7706 and I only had that for 3 months.

Anyhow last week just for kicks I got out those Atmos discs. I had to think hard were I had put them, as I did not think I would play them again.

However when played back via the AV 10 the sound was absolutely spectacular, exciting and true to life.

Now I don't think there is anything in test results from these units that would give a hint of this dramatic difference in sound and presentation.

Now Dolby Atmos is streamed in Dolby Digital Plus and the discs Dolby True HD.

So, it seems that the 7705 was incapable of properly decoding Dolby True HD at the very least.

This came as a surprise to me. I note that there has been discussion about this on Audio Science Review and Amir has called the situation a total mess and I would agree.

So, I have to report that there are huge differences in SQ between devices you would not expect from specs and even reviews containing standard measurements.

 

[TLS Guy]

I can tell you Lovin, that the 7705 could not decode those discs correctly. The Atmos was way inferior to the stereo track, but the AV 10 produced glorious and ambient full bodied sound. We are talking about a massive difference here and not a minor one. On the 7705 the Atmos track was essentially unlistenable. So the processor was clearly not up to the task.

 

[lovinthehd]

Uh huh.

 

[TLS Guy]

Uh huh.

By far the biggest difference between the AV 10 and the others is playback of Atmos streams and discs. It is a huge improvement. it is clear to me that the others did not decode Atmos content optimally and was way wide of the mark. I suspect most AVRs do not, at least Marantz and Denon. This is not a splitting hairs difference but huge and unmistakable.

 

[m. zillch]

As you know my Marantz AV 10 has revealed a significant improvement in SQ over my 7705 and 7706.

Out of curiosity, at what volume level?

 

[TLS Guy]

Out of curiosity, at what volume level?

I generally play back at concert level. However, both the AV 7705 and 7706 played back Atmos streams at least 10 db. quieter so that the volume had to be significantly advanced for the Atmos streams. On the AV 10 the stereo and Atmos streams play back at the same level.

But the big issue is that the perspective of the sound stage is totally different. The AV 10 reproduces them like the concert hall with realistic positioning of the players left to right and front to back. The orchestra is set back behind the screen and sounds as if it is on stage. I am absolutely stunned at how realistic the sound stage is. The 7705 and 7706 did not come close to that. With the audience applause it surrounds you, whereas before it was all up front and it did not sound as if you were surrounded by the audience.

I have to suspect that this is all related to the increased power of the DAC in the AV 10. But before and after is not close to comparable. This is all unfortunate, as it means that at the current time, you need high end units to optimize Atmos playback. However technology has a habit of filtering down. I suspect overtime Atmos playback is likely to improve at the mid to lower end of the market.

I never thought I would have to spend as much as I did to get a decent processor. I only did as the 7705 and especially the 7706 had short lifespans and therefore were a problem and bad value for money. I like gear that has "long legs" and by most of my purchases have had, with gear over 60 years old in regular use.

I have no tolerance for gear that blows up in a few years and certainly not in a few months like the 7706.,

 

[m. zillch]

I'm of the mind the only evaluations of hi-fi gear which are valid must be done at precisely matched volume levels, for all channels, determine by instrumentation measuring calibration tones not "winging it", because otherwise small level differences (even of just a faction of a dB) can be, and often are, misconstrued by the human brain as qualitative differences. This holds true for everyone, including myself, regardless of their background, expertise, or their description of what exactly it was they heard.

 

[PENG]

I have to suspect that this is all related to the increased power of the DAC in the AV 10.

You shocked me, like with 50 kV, for even thinking it is the DAC!!!!!!!!! Of all people, I would have though you know what DACs do right?

By the way, it is a fact that the AV10 use a reference class ESS DAC IC, but not the flagship class that is used in some other AVPs/AVRs such as the Anthem AVM90, but that's irrelevant for this discussion anyway.

The DSP is a different story, D+M upgraded the IC to one that has sufficient capabilities to do not only the increase channel counts from previously 15 to now 19, but also has to do the paid upgrade Dirac Live Bass Control plus Dirac Live ART so there is just no comparison.

With all that increased raw processing capabilities of the Griffin Lite chip, it should not be a surprise you are so much more impressed with the AV10's Atmos performance vs the AV7705'.

Just a side note: credit to D+M, they have done it again, leveraging purchasing power, by filtering down such improvements onto the lower models, even the Denon 3000 series and Marantz 50,40 use the same DSP IC, so I would say those on a tighter budget, can expect superior Atmos performance too by simply going with the X3800H or Cinema 50 AVR, yes, AVRs. Those AVRs also use the same preamp/volume control IC, and most of the opas as the AV10, but of course the AV10 has superior wiring scheme, layouts, shielding and the better HDAMs etc.