Phase Confirmation

[dolynick]

I'm reasonably sure I've got this the right way around but just looking for a little sanity check just in case.

I'm looking to make sure I've got my sub in phase with my mains so I'll open this up to the floor for opinions. The Rel is run in it's high-level connection mode in tandem with the mains as a bass augmentor. It is not possible to adjust the phase via ARC/MRX 540 controls since it would affect both, so this needs to be set correctly the old fashioned way at the Rel.

The sub is set to come in around 80-85 Hz to try and address that suckout in that range. Ignore the overall level as this is just a raw amped up setting to give me a nice broad region to work with in ARC/RoomEQ.

This is the Founder100Fs from the listening position by themselves (Red) and with the Rel S/510 set to 0 phase (blue):

And this is the Founders with the Rel at 180 phase (orange):

I would expect that the sub being in phase with the mains would be the one that more closely mimics the curve as it is positively increasing the output over it's range overall. In this case, that appears to be the second graph with the sub set to 180 phase. The first one also has that rather steep drop around 23Hz which, to me, suggests it's out of phase with the mains and creating a cancellation at that frequency.

Having done a complete ARC setup on each setting now, I do think that the bass is sharper and more defined using the 180 phase setting. It also seem much harder (not really possible) to localize the sub vs the mains in that setting as well.

Having said all that, it is possible that I've got my head a little backwards on something here. Feel free to weigh in on which one you think is the correct in phase one. I was able to use phase 0 with my previous mains, so this wasn't something I expected to have to change with the new mains.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm reasonably sure I've got this the right way around but just looking for a little sanity check just in case.

I'm looking to make sure I've got my sub in phase with my mains so I'll open this up to the floor for opinions. The Rel is run in it's high-level connection mode in tandem with the mains as a bass augmentor. It is not possible to adjust the phase via ARC/MRX 540 controls since it would affect both, so this needs to be set correctly the old fashioned way at the Rel.

The sub is set to come in around 80-85 Hz to try and address that suckout in that range. Ignore the overall level as this is just a raw amped up setting to give me a nice broad region to work with in ARC/RoomEQ.

This is the Founder100Fs from the listening position by themselves (Red) and with the Rel S/510 set to 0 phase (blue):
View attachment 75066
And this is the Founders with the Rel at 180 phase (orange):
View attachment 75067

I would expect that the sub being in phase with the mains would be the one that more closely mimics the curve as it is positively increasing the output over it's range overall. In this case, that appears to be the second graph with the sub set to 180 phase. The first one also has that rather steep drop around 23Hz which, to me, suggests it's out of phase with the mains and creating a cancellation at that frequency.

Having done a complete ARC setup on each setting now, I do think that the bass is sharper and more defined using the 180 phase setting. It also seem much harder (not really possible) to localize the sub vs the mains in that setting as well.

Having said all that, it is possible that I've got my head a little backwards on something here. Feel free to weigh in on which one you think is the correct in phase one. I was able to use phase 0 with my previous mains, so this wasn't something I expected to have to change with the new mains.

Yes, the 180 degrees is better, however given the way you are using the sub, I suspect -90 might be better.

 

[dolynick]

I suspect -90 might be better

Unfortunately not an option in this scenario. Thanks for giving your opinion on the two options though.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious, why use the high level connections when you have bass management?

 

[dolynick]

Curious, why use the high level connections when you have bass management?

I actually quite enjoy the sound of the modern Rels running high level. I personally think that sound better integrated when playing in tandem with the mains (sub in close proximity to one or both) rather than doing a crossover hand-off. Having said that, it would be much harder to tune/balance correctly without bass management to shape and trim the lower end.

In the past, I ran this sub config for both music and movies. But with that drop in the low 20s (my old mains were able to cover that up), this particular setup will be more music only (where the vast majority is 25Hz+). I have another pair of subs that I do cross over to sub 40Hz for movie content to fill in that bottom end.

I wasn't going to get into all of that in this thread though. If you're curious about the whole thing, I should probably update the system post with the changes and full before/after/correction curve settings, etc. I've still been working out some issues here or there with it though - this was one of the steps in cleaning some of that up.

 

[lovinthehd]

I actually quite enjoy the sound of the modern Rels running high level. I personally think that sound better integrated when playing in tandem with the mains (sub in close proximity to one or both) rather than doing a crossover hand-off. Having said that, it would be much harder to tune/balance correctly without bass management to shape and trim the lower end.

In the past, I ran this sub config for both music and movies. But with that drop in the low 20s (my old mains were able to cover that up), this particular setup will be more music only (where the vast majority is 25Hz+). I have another pair of subs that I do cross over to sub 40Hz for movie content to fill in that bottom end.

Meh, Rels aren't very good subs to begin with let alone having particularly good extension over capable speakers....only one sub?

 

[dolynick]

Meh, Rels aren't very good subs to begin with let alone having particularly good extension over capable speakers....only one sub?

I love how people like to pass judgment without any experience with what it sounds like in the room in the setup.

As I mentioned in my first reply, I have two SVS PB-1000s in the system now too. They work fine for filling in that low 20s region. The Rel, oddly, has more output than the two of them combined below 20. I can also say unequivocally that the single Rel with its active 10 and passive 12 has far more slam and texture in it's bass output than the SVS pair when flipping between the 2.0 and 2.1 setup. But yes, I have profiles set up for both so I can use whichever I prefer at the moment.

I'm not saying they're a superior sub to others, or even particularly cost efficient for what they do. But they most definitely have their charms as well. Nor was that the point of this thread.

 

[lovinthehd]

I love how people like to pass judgment without any experience with what it sounds like in the room in the setup.

As I mentioned in my first reply, I have two SVS PB-1000s in the system now too. They work fine for filling in that low 20s region. The Rel, oddly, has more output than the two of them combined below 20. I can also say unequivocally that the single Rel with its active 10 and passive 12 has far more slam and texture in it's bass output than the SVS pair when flipping between the 2.0 and 2.1 setup. But yes, I have profiles set up for both so I can use whichever I prefer at the moment.

Got some measurements to back that up? I have "used" Rel subs and shopped them, wouldn't even be a consideration for me, especially with their stupid marketing for the high level connection....

 

[dolynick]

Got some measurements to back that up? I have "used" Rel subs and shopped them, wouldn't even be a consideration for me, especially with their stupid marketing for the high level connection....

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't. It's +5db up over the paired SVS 12s at 14Hz. Fortuitious room interaction? Possibly. Still doesn't change the measurement at the listening/measurement point though.

But again, this thread was about getting the phase right. Not whether you like Rel subs or not.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't. It's +5db up over the paired SVS 12s at 14Hz. Fortuitious room interaction? Possibly. Still doesn't change the measurement at the listening/measurement point though.

But again, this thread was about getting the phase right. Not whether you like Rel subs or not.

Not about my liking of subs but rather your use of the high level connection vs bass management, and the stupidity of Rel "advice" in that regard. YMMV. You only have one of these limited Rel bass modules?