Pre main amplifier

[Stormydog]

My house was built 20 years ago and I installed stereo ceiling speakers and 2 outdoor speakers (I think 100w) in several rooms. They were hooked up to a simple 2 channel stereo receiver. Played just fine.
Recently I bought Onkyo TX SR393 A/V receiver to create home theater. Hooked up ceiling speakers to Front channel and sound is very low. Contacted Onkyo and finally convinced them that the ceiling speakers are not part of any 3.1 home theater setup, but simple 2 channel stereo. This receiver is home theater, but does have a Line Out Zone B ability which outputs 2 channel stereo to another room. I think this is what I need

However it requires the output to go into a pre main amplifier. I am so confused here as to what I need. I do want to spend less than $100 since it is just to use the ceiling speakers and nothing else. I've looked at something like Nobsound NS-04G PRO Mini Digital Power Amplifier HiFi Stereo 2.0 Channel Class D Home Desktop Audio Amp 100W+100W for $35.
Totally confused with phono pre amp, car pre amps and stereo preamps. Do not need to spend much money on simple use. Any guidance appreciated.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your receiver lacks pre-outs (pre-amplifier outputs) to use a power amp with the zone 2 line outs (line outs simply output a low level signal without volume control). To use zone 2 you'd need another integrated amp (your avr is a type of integrated amp), so that you could control volume for zone 2. The Nobsound you mention would work.

Low sound on your ceiling speakers (which is a poor place for L/R speakers btw) is more related to the speakers' sensitivity...wattage ratings mean little except a warning as to how much power they can take. Paying attention to speakers' impedance is important along with sensitivity, max wattage is fairly useless.

An integrated amp simply means a pre-amp and amplifier in the same box (a receiver generally added radio tuner in the past, often more about internet capability these days). A phono pre-amp takes the very low signal level of a cartridge (moving magnet type or moving coil type) and boosts it as well as applies the RIAA eq curve needed to play vinyl back properly. A pre-amp would not have amplifiers for passive speakers (basically a switch/volume control only). Car or home would be the same capability in that regard. If your avr had pre-outs then you could use a (power) amplifier to supplement it.

That help?

 

[everettT]

Are the speakers going through a speaker selector to volume controls and what was the previous receiver/amp (can you describe your equipment a little more?) That model of Onkyo doesn't have a lot of power to drive several speakers at the same time at a moderate volume.

 

[Stormydog]

To everettT: I had Levitron speaker 6.5" Cat No. SGC65-00W which is a single stereo speaker in the ceiling in certain rooms. I also have mounted on the outside porch a Left and Right Outdoor speaker Cat No. SG099-00W.
That is info is from a Levitron speaker sheet I have. Each room with the speakers has a volume control mounted into the wall.

I used a Yamaha Natural Sound AV Receiver R-V503. Using (I don't remember what speaker output used - this was 20 years ago) speaker wire to a wall stereo jack. Was able to adjust sound just fine in rooms back then. Went to a home theater setup and I kind of gave up using the ceiling speaks for years and got the ONKYO receiver for home theater using a 3.1 setup as no room for extra speakers in a 5.1 setup. I finally figured out how to wire the wall jacks to the Front speaker outputs. Low volume. After conversing with ONKYO support, I was finally informed that Zone B uses a low power 2 channel stereo output and could use that.

ZONE B LINE OUT jacks: Output audio signals with an analog audio cable
connected to a pre-main amplifier in a separate room (ZONE B).


The ONKYO manual simply says to a pre main amplifier. i am stumped and very confused on how to proceed. Since ONKYO would only recommend their pre amps for like $400 and suggested I do my own research for 3rd party amps. Didn't know where to go for advice and found this site figuring I can get excellent advice. I can't and don't want to spend that kind of money just to get sound to ceiling speakers. Looking for cheaper alternatives to accomplish this. And now I am dumbfounded and looking for advice.

 

[Stormydog]

To LovingtheHD: You said "Your receiver lacks pre-outs (pre-amplifier outputs) to use a power amp with the zone 2 line outs (line outs simply output a low level signal without volume control). To use zone 2 you'd need another integrated amp (your avr is a type of integrated amp), so that you could control volume for zone 2. The Nobsound you mention would work. "

That does confuse me. As in my previous reply to everettT, you can see my complete lack of knowledge in all this new technology and confusing to me, information. I know not what to do. Looking for best advice as I don't know where to turn.

 

[lovinthehd]

To LovingtheHD: You said "Your receiver lacks pre-outs (pre-amplifier outputs) to use a power amp with the zone 2 line outs (line outs simply output a low level signal without volume control). To use zone 2 you'd need another integrated amp (your avr is a type of integrated amp), so that you could control volume for zone 2. The Nobsound you mention would work. "

That does confuse me. As in my previous reply to everettT, you can see my complete lack of knowledge in all this new technology and confusing to me, information. I know not what to do. Looking for best advice as I don't know where to turn.

My comment on using your 393 was how to power Zone speakers (and it is "B" rather than "2" so I misnamed it earlier). Many avrs you can use some of the surround channels for the second zone speakers, this 393 does not have that option. Many avrs have pre-outs for the zone(s) so you can use simply a power amp and control the volume with the avr, but your 393 does not have that option, it instead uses line outs so you need an integrated amp like the Nobsound (and will need to control volume on the Nobsound for the zone speakers). Premain amplifier is a strange term, integrated amplifier is better.

For the older avr you mention, the 503, that one seems to have A/B speaker terminals so you could simply use the amplifiers in the avr for the zone speakers.

That do it?

 

[Stormydog]

Thanks so much for your response.
If I am understanding you, I can

1) hook up my old unused Yamaha 503 as maybe AUX and use that to power the speakers o

2) get the small Nobsound unit. I have no problem of spending $35 for Nobsound, providing it will do what I need. I will not pay $400+ for this ability like ONKYO can only suggest as they will not suggest third party units.

I just need the assurances that Nobsound is what I need. My meager research led me to consider it. You seem to have assured me it will do what I need. Thanks.

I also checked and the wall speaker jacks go to a Structured Media Cabinet in the basement and has in it a Systems Controller which has wires from an amplifier and sends wires out to each speaker and wall volume control. So, setting the volume with the Nobsound and then adjusting the wall volume should work like I want.

 

[Stormydog]

I went looking for the Nobsound NS-04G PRO Mini Digital Power Amplifier HiFi Stereo 2.0 Channel Class D Home Desktop Audio Amp 100W+100W and get this: Amazon has it for $401, This must be a mistake. AliExpress now has it for $40 (was $35 yesterday) which includes power supply.

My problem is AliExpress ships from China. I was hoping for something made is USA or at least sold and shipped from USA.

Appreciate any suggestions on suitable units. Your advice to me is immeasurable.
Thanks for your time.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks so much for your response.
If I am understanding you, I can

1) hook up my old unused Yamaha 503 as maybe AUX and use that to power the speakers o

2) get the small Nobsound unit. I have no problem of spending $35 for Nobsound, providing it will do what I need. I will not pay $400+ for this ability like ONKYO can only suggest as they will not suggest third party units.

I just need the assurances that Nobsound is what I need. My meager research led me to consider it. You seem to have assured me it will do what I need. Thanks.

I also checked and the wall speaker jacks go to a Structured Media Cabinet in the basement and has in it a Systems Controller which has wires from an amplifier and sends wires out to each speaker and wall volume control. So, setting the volume with the Nobsound and then adjusting the wall volume should work like I want.

If your old Yamaha still works, and you don't mind the size, that should work fine. Whether that's a good solution for the "system controller" you have, hard to know....what make/model of gear is that? I was thinking more of a direct connection to the zone speakers. Couldn't tell you about the Nobsound pricing but keep in mind that the wattage rating of such amps is somewhat vague and likely overstated and often very dependent on power supply.

I just looked at your speakers detail and confused about what you've set up for main L/R channels now....was assuming single speakers in the ceiling for a 2ch playback also directly connected to the amp rather than via volume controls let alone the "stereo" nature of each speaker. How many rooms are there?

 

[lovinthehd]

Just a general note, trying to use a previous home owner's multi-room sound system gear can be hard without a lot of details about the gear/wiring involved. Often is a mess.

 

[Stormydog]

I would think my multi-room set up should be easier to understand.

I have a Structured Media Cabinet that includes a Levitron SYSTEM MATCHING MODULE WITH AUTO SURGE Cat. No. SGAMP.

It has 1 plugin with 4 wires that say "to amplifier". In my case they go to the wall terminal that has 2
R/L screw terminals that then connect to the amp via speaker wire. The wall screw terminal has what I think is a Right channel with +/_ connectors and a Left channel with +/- connectors. So 4 connectors.

There are up to 6 connections possible on the system module that go to the rooms, I am using 4: Bedroom, bathroom, dining/kitchen and living room. There are 2 more connections - one to Left outdoor speaker and one to Right outdoor speaker. The ceiling speakers is one stereo speaker in each room. Each room has a separate volume control mounted on the wall.

In my limited knowledge in researching for a pre main amp, I thought the Nobsound NS-04G PRO Mini Digital Power Amplifier HiFi Stereo 2.0 Channel Class D Home Desktop Audio Amp 100W+100W would do what I needed.
Found Nobsound store on Ebay that ships from USA. Just need verification that it is what I need. Or else I have no idea what a pre main amp is. Prefer to not use the old Yamaha (space restraints) if I can get something smaller.

 

[Stormydog]

I contacted Douk Audio and they said NS-04G PRO is an amplifier not a preamp.
Totally confused.

 

[TLS Guy]

I contacted Douk Audio and they said NS-04G PRO is an amplifier not a preamp.
Totally confused.

Those old wired round the house systems are a nightmare. They are usually installed wrong by the builder. My advice is forget they were ever there.

We are not going to sort out this mess form our armchairs. You need professional help from an AV installer with credentials, to find out what you have. Then you will get an honest opinion on whether it is worth any expense or effort, and most are not. Then he can advise about what you need to make it work and if it is possible or worth it,

 

[lovinthehd]

I contacted Douk Audio and they said NS-04G PRO is an amplifier not a preamp.
Totally confused.

It is specifically an integrated amp (vs power amp only). An integrated amp incorporates a pre-amp section with a power amp. Do you have comprehension issues or is it translation issues or ?

 

[highfigh]

I would think my multi-room set up should be easier to understand.

I have a Structured Media Cabinet that includes a Levitron SYSTEM MATCHING MODULE WITH AUTO SURGE Cat. No. SGAMP.

It has 1 plugin with 4 wires that say "to amplifier". In my case they go to the wall terminal that has 2
R/L screw terminals that then connect to the amp via speaker wire. The wall screw terminal has what I think is a Right channel with +/_ connectors and a Left channel with +/- connectors. So 4 connectors.

There are up to 6 connections possible on the system module that go to the rooms, I am using 4: Bedroom, bathroom, dining/kitchen and living room. There are 2 more connections - one to Left outdoor speaker and one to Right outdoor speaker. The ceiling speakers is one stereo speaker in each room. Each room has a separate volume control mounted on the wall.

In my limited knowledge in researching for a pre main amp, I thought the Nobsound NS-04G PRO Mini Digital Power Amplifier HiFi Stereo 2.0 Channel Class D Home Desktop Audio Amp 100W+100W would do what I needed.
Found Nobsound store on Ebay that ships from USA. Just need verification that it is what I need. Or else I have no idea what a pre main amp is. Prefer to not use the old Yamaha (space restraints) if I can get something smaller.

Show the structured wiring enclosure, with all of the equipment. That will help.

 

[Stormydog]

It must be a comprehension issue. My set up couldn't (to me) be simpler. and I am not an audio expert by any means.
Do not confuse my issue with hooking up to any multi room home theaters situation. These ceiling/outdoor speakers are simple 2 channel stereo, separate from anything. Not hooked up to anything. I simply have wall screw terminals to receive speaker wire from a simple stereo receiver. Use to work fine when first installed and using simple stereo receiver. I bought a home theater ONKYO and discovered becaise of 3.1 home theater output, the only way to hook up the stereo speakers was to use Zone B Line out (2 channel stereo). This line out is to go to a pre main amplifier. I have never had any dealings with this, only a regular A/V Receiver.

Looking for low-cost solution to increase speaker volume. This situation does not need $400+ pre amps. Not gong to hook up to anything else.

Attached are photos of SMC (Structured Media Cabinet) which is pretty simple.
SMC.jpg is whole unit. 1 = 4 port wired gateway 2= System Module 3=Cable/Internet router

SMCSystemModule.jmp

is close up of Ceiling/outdoor speaker hookup. Left connector goes to speaker screw wall terminals (received speaker wire from amp) The 6 right connectors go to individual ceiling or outdoor speakers (each has its own volume control in a wall plate).
Thanks for your input.

 

[Stormydog]

I was told in an earlier post that I could use my old Yamaha R-V503 and use its amplifier. Not sure how to input the RCA connectors from the ONKYO Zone B Line Out (to pre main amp). Not sure what input to use : CD, Phono, Tape etc. There is no pre amp in.

I think too much information in trying to convey my situation is letting this forum to think it is a more involved hookup. It is simple, simple matter.

I do not know of an inexpensive solution, nor how pre main amps need to be hooked up.

 

[TLS Guy]

I was told in an earlier post that I could use my old Yamaha R-V503 and use its amplifier. Not sure how to input the RCA connectors from the ONKYO Zone B Line Out (to pre main amp). Not sure what input to use : CD, Phono, Tape etc. There is no pre amp in.

I think too much information in trying to convey my situation is letting this forum to think it is a more involved hookup. It is simple, simple matter.

I do not know of an inexpensive solution, nor how pre main amps need to be hooked up.

What are you smoking? That is a typical builder's bird's nest. Heaven knows what you have there and what goes where.

You can run any receiver in two channel mode. It will be in the set up menu, and you connect to the right and left speaker outs. Don't be surprised if it goes up in smoke when you connect it, to that bird's nest.

From the pictures, I suspect that system already has amplification, but I can be certain of nothing. Without professional help you will waste money and more likely than not, do a lot of damage.

You need to know exactly what you have there and a map made of what is connected to what. We can not possibly sort that mess out from our armchairs.

 

[Stormydog]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

The "Birds nest" has nothing to do with the ceiling speakers. Only the System Module. All the other wires deal with cable tv, phone and internet wired connections in the rooms. I keep the wires "loose" so I can easily switch an internet connection. Has nothing to do with my 4 ceiling speakers or my 2 outdoor speakers.

The System Module has one connection to wall speaker terminals and connections to each room. Period. No other involvement with anything in that cabinet.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

The "Birds nest" has nothing to do with the ceiling speakers. Only the System Module. All the other wires deal with cable tv, phone and internet wired connections in the rooms. I keep the wires "loose" so I can easily switch an internet connection. Has nothing to do with my 4 ceiling speakers or my 2 outdoor speakers.

The System Module has one connection to wall speaker terminals and connections to each room. Period. No other involvement with anything in that cabinet.

In that case we need to know how the rooms are set up. Is it a low impedance system or a 70 volt system? What type of controls are in the rooms? Impedance compensated or otherwise?

From what you are saying now it seems you likely need a distribution amplifier.

We can't answer your question until we know what load or loads you have to drive.

You have not asked a simple question and we need to know precisely what the input will be, and what are the loads it has to drive, and how they are controlled. This is not simple and far more complicated than you think.
We have had these post over the years and not had the information we need. Then when connected it all blows up and money goes down the drain.