Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[trochetier]

Bombing places was the go to before the assault rifle ban was lifted in the US. Crazy people will always find a way to kill innocent people, but giving them access to weapons that make it so much easier is just plain stupid. Red flag laws and mandatory waiting periods help, but aren't the solution.

It's like the argument that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Replace the word "guns" with "bombs" and it suddenly sounds as stupid as it is.

Or that "Europe has an issue with people stabbing people in crowds, should we ban knives too?" Yes, people are the main problem, but nobody wants to admit that we really need to start looking after one another more than we do.

Except mass stabbing like mass shooting is difficult to carry out and even if so the kill rate will not be as high.

 

[highfigh]

We’ve had those trucks driving into crowded areas killing dozens here in Europe but that is now much harder to do because of physical obstacles. If mass murder is what you were thinking off.

A single car hitting a single target is not more lethal than an assault rifle.

Have you seen this and the outcry over China seeming to want it to go away by removing items left by mourners and restricting media coverage?

The driver stabbed himself before the police arrived- too bad he didn't start there, instead of ruining the lives of so many others.

35 people killed as driver rams into crowd at a sports center in China

A 62-year-old man was detained outside the Zhuhai Sports Center, police said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[highfigh]

Access to a gun is part of the problem, but the 17 year old is completely at fault- once again, it was a bad person using a gun.

17-year-old charged in fatal shooting of teen at Milwaukee bus stop

The shooting at a Milwaukee bus stop has led to charges against a 17-year-old, who has not been arrested.

www.wisn.com

 

[Trell]

Have you seen this and the outcry over China seeming to want it to go away by removing items left by mourners and restricting media coverage?

The driver stabbed himself before the police arrived- too bad he didn't start there, instead of ruining the lives of so many others.

35 people killed as driver rams into crowd at a sports center in China

A 62-year-old man was detained outside the Zhuhai Sports Center, police said.

www.nbcnews.com

This is why so many streets have roadblocks across Europe. While you have daily mass shootings we don’t have daily attacks using cars to drive into crowds of people.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Teen arrested in Queen West shooting facing murder charge | CBC News

Toronto police say a 16-year-old arrested in a dramatic incident this week where 100 gunshots were fired outside a Queen Street W. recording studio has now been charged with second-degree murder in connection with a homicide from earlier this year.

Police say the teenager was among 23 arrested in connection with Monday night's shooting, which also resulted in 16 guns being seized.

Police said they recovered several firearms that were left behind by those running away, with some weapons being discarded at the garbage bins at the recording studio and other areas. Police say the recovered firearms are all from the U.S.

Meanwhile...

Trump's border czar says Canadian border is an 'extreme' vulnerability | CBC News

Tell you what - if you guys do more to keep guns from coming north, we'll do more to keep illegal migrants from coming south. Deal?

 

[Trell]

Tell you what - if you guys do more to keep guns from coming north, we'll do more to keep illegal migrants from coming south. Deal?

Trump had said that missiles should be launched at drug labs in Mexico, but perhaps other countries should launch missiles at some US corporate HQ to stop influx of guns?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Trump had said that missiles should be launched at drug labs in Mexico, but perhaps other countries should launch missiles at some US corporate HQ to stop influx of guns?

Too late for "buyer's remorse."

 

[highfigh]

Teen arrested in Queen West shooting facing murder charge | CBC News




Meanwhile...

Tell you what - if you guys do more to keep guns from coming north, we'll do more to keep illegal migrants from coming south. Deal?

Ever try to pick up a bead of Mercury or herd cats? Go after one criminal and the rest scatter. I don't know how many points of entry are being used by gun smugglers, but metal detectors need to cover any area within a mile of each one.

If I had a choice, criminals could be scooped up with excavation equipment and put in garbage trucks.

 

[highfigh]

Trump had said that missiles should be launched at drug labs in Mexico, but perhaps other countries should launch missiles at some US corporate HQ to stop influx of guns?

What about Glock? Those are used extensively by gang bangers and it's one of the only brands that can be fitted with a 'switch', making them fully automatic. Not a US manufacturer. Taurus is another popular brand, made in Brazil. Most of the other brands form outside of the US are too expensive if they were purchased, but they're frequently stolen because the owners are too stupid to secure them.

Must be nice to not have our problems, but think you know the solutions. And what's a major difference between your country and the US? THE PEOPLE. We have more criminals than your entire population and those of us who aren't criminals are f&cking sick of their BS.

 

[Mikado463]

Instead of essentially freely legally available guns and assault weapons what will they choose?

Give an example, please.

well here's a recent one.........

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/16/china/china-stabbing-yixing-campus-intl/index.html

 

[highfigh]

well here's a recent one.........

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/16/china/china-stabbing-yixing-campus-intl/index.html

These are just from 2020 to Nov 16 of this year. Not a surprise, but Milwaukee made the list-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_stabbing_incidents_(2020–present)

In this link, the weapon & circumstances are shown- knives or cutting instruments accounted for 1476 homicides-

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11.xls

 

[highfigh]

Trump had said that missiles should be launched at drug labs in Mexico, but perhaps other countries should launch missiles at some US corporate HQ to stop influx of guns?

Drugs kill far more people than guns.

Violence to avenge violence? The US can't even keep murderers in jails and prisons.

 

[highfigh]

Recently, a 15 year old girl killed two and herself, wounding others, at a school in the Madison, WI area. I haven't heard much lately about how she got the guns, but there was nothing at the school to stop her bringing them in- the school may have 'Gun Free Zone' signs but Wisconsin doesn't allow metal detectors in schools because it has been deemed a violation of privacy. Brilliant. If they had them, three people might be alive. I searched and the last news info I found was from late-December.

 

[TankTop5]

Recently, a 15 year old girl killed two and herself, wounding others, at a school in the Madison, WI area. I haven't heard much lately about how she got the guns, but there was nothing at the school to stop her bringing them in- the school may have 'Gun Free Zone' signs but Wisconsin doesn't allow metal detectors in schools because it has been deemed a violation of privacy. Brilliant. If they had them, three people might be alive. I searched and the last news info I found was from late-December.

Insanity

 

[Trell]

Recently, a 15 year old girl killed two and herself, wounding others, at a school in the Madison, WI area. I haven't heard much lately about how she got the guns, but there was nothing at the school to stop her bringing them in- the school may have 'Gun Free Zone' signs but Wisconsin doesn't allow metal detectors in schools because it has been deemed a violation of privacy. Brilliant. If they had them, three people might be alive. I searched and the last news info I found was from late-December.

Well, as you've said before: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And you're adamant against gun safety controls.

So, it's a bit surprising that you lament lack of invasive metal detector searching in schools. How are the other children to defend themselves against lunatics with guns if they don't have gun themselves?

 

[Dude#1279435]

Trump had said that missiles should be launched at drug labs in Mexico, but perhaps other countries should launch missiles at some US corporate HQ to stop influx of guns?

*Can save everyone by nuking this dumb thread.

 

[highfigh]

Well, as you've said before: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And you're adamant against gun safety controls.

So, it's a bit surprising that you lament lack of invasive metal detector searching in schools. How are the other children to defend themselves against lunatics with guns if they don't have gun themselves?

Man, you really can't read- I have never posted anything against gun safety. Safety requirements are great and I would like more, but the people who have guns illegally don't give a rat's ass about that. They do incredibly stupid things on a regular basis, then they do other stupid things with guns. We have laws but criminals don't give a shyte. I would like mandatory firearm training that shows proficiency, but self-guided practice isn't what I would consider 'adequate' because people shoot themselves and others at gun ranges or outdoors on private land when they get together and play army or try to act like cowboys. If anyone thinks that drinking isn't involved, they would be wrong in many cases. Then, there's YouTube, where idiots show how they can perform quick draw and shoot themselves in the leg- real video, not just made up for this reply. I want real training, with real trainers, so fewer people will be shot accidentally either by carelessness or stupid storage (or lack of).

I want metal detectors in schools, but the idiots in the state legislature won't allow them in. Walk through and if it doesn't make noise, there's no metal. If it does, the person is searched. They can stop weapons coming into a building as long as the weapons and ammunition aren't made of something that disrupts the field. If you don't know, Uvalde happened because someone left a door unsecured and since it was an exit, a metal detector in that school wouldn't have helped

I don't want to see 1984 become real, but if someone wants to shoot up a school, they need to be stopped before they have a chance.

That's a ridiculous question.

 

[Trell]

Man, you really can't read- I have never posted anything against gun safety. Safety requirements are great and I would like more, but the people who have guns illegally don't give a rat's ass about that. They do incredibly stupid things on a regular basis, then they do other stupid things with guns. We have laws but criminals don't give a shyte. I would like mandatory firearm training that shows proficiency, but self-guided practice isn't what I would consider 'adequate' because people shoot themselves and others at gun ranges or outdoors on private land when they get together and play army or try to act like cowboys. If anyone thinks that drinking isn't involved, they would be wrong in many cases. Then, there's YouTube, where idiots show how they can perform quick draw and shoot themselves in the leg- real video, not just made up for this reply. I want real training, with real trainers, so fewer people will be shot accidentally either by carelessness or stupid storage (or lack of).

I want metal detectors in schools, but the idiots in the state legislature won't allow them in. Walk through and if it doesn't make noise, there's no metal. If it does, the person is searched. They can stop weapons coming into a building as long as the weapons and ammunition aren't made of something that disrupts the field. If you don't know, Uvalde happened because someone left a door unsecured and since it was an exit, a metal detector in that school wouldn't have helped

I don't want to see 1984 become real, but if someone wants to shoot up a school, they need to be stopped before they have a chance.

That's a ridiculous question.

You're the one arguing, repeatedly, that any gun control/safety/laws are a waste of time because criminals don't respect laws so the law abiding denizens should arm themselves to the teeth to protect themselves. That's an ignorant fantasy soundly disproven by science, but here we are.

So what is it? You're for gun safety now?

 

[Dude#1279435]

More a rant but with real examples LOL.....

Can we have a rational discussion about guns?
Nope, cause some gun owners in this discussion are not rational.

If you want a machine gun for personal use, you're an idiot.'
Doesn't matter how responsible you think you are. You're still an idiot.

Plus now more of them would be in circulation.

Well the feds banned machine guns in '86!
To ban them from idiots like you too.

If you own a glock, semi-automatic, or any other high powered equipment, there's reason to believe you'd want to own a MG for personal use. Therefore you're still an idiot.

If say like one person you go, Well "i" don't want to own a MG, you're also part of the problem cause you don't have the cajones to call out your fellow brethren for being idiots.

If say you go gaga over police specs, yeah you think you need that too. You're an idiot. (There's a point to police/military having superior fire power over civilians.)

Who are YOU to tell us what we can have?
The person who apparently knows better than you. It's actually ass-backwards: the non-gun owner knows more than the gunowner on this one.

 

[highfigh]

More a rant but with real examples LOL.....

1- Can we have a rational discussion about guns?
Nope, cause some gun owners in this discussion are not rational.

2- If you want a machine gun for personal use, you're an idiot.'
Doesn't matter how responsible you think you are. You're still an idiot.

3- Plus now more of them would be in circulation.

4- Well the feds banned machine guns in '86!
To ban them from idiots like you too.

5- If you own a glock, semi-automatic, or any other high powered equipment, there's reason to believe you'd want to own a MG for personal use. Therefore you're still an idiot.

6- If say like one person you go, Well "i" don't want to own a MG, you're also part of the problem cause you don't have the cajones to call out your fellow brethren for being idiots.

7- If say you go gaga over police specs, yeah you think you need that too. You're an idiot. (There's a point to police/military having superior fire power over civilians.)

8- Who are YOU to tell us what we can have?
The person who apparently knows better than you. It's actually ass-backwards: the non-gun owner knows more than the gunowner on this one.

I numbered the points to make it easier to address them.

1- So YOU get to decide that someone's not rational? Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't make THEM irrational and some of your points in this post are ridiculous. Calling people idiots doesn't help your case.

2- Who uses machine guns? An AR IS NOT a 'machine gun'. A ban on actual machine guns still exists for most people, but it's still possible to buy and own them, if someone passes the requirements. I don't see a need for them, but so far, they haven't been used, with the exception of firearms that have been illegally modified.

3- Do you know something the rest of the world doesn't? Will it be possible to own machine guns in the near future, or are you just over-reacting to something?

4- Again, calling people idiots doesn't help your case and my intent in starting this thread was to see actual recommendations that might help the problem, which you AREN'T doing. I don't want machine guns- I don't know where you got that.

5- Now, you're posting gibberish- were you shouting while you typed? Seems so. A Glock is semi-automatic, but it's the main brand modified ILLEGALLY, with a device called a 'switch', that allows it to fire automatically. This device is illegal. Define 'high powered'- why did you group Glock, semi-automatic and high powered? That doesn't make sense because very few handguns are 'high powered'.

6- What 'brethren'? If you ever find a post from me that supports the NRA in any way other than being a tool for fighting absolute gun control and removal of the right to own guns, show it.

So, no cajones, eh? Got it- one of yours is bigger than the other two?

We have the right, but it's not a requirement for us to own guns. Some don't want them, some are totally afriad of them, some don't want anyone to have them. That's OK and not all are idiots but just as you think that people who want guns are idiots, some definitely are. I'm not a fan of the gung ho "I NEED MORE GUNS BECAUSE THE GUB'MINT IS COMIN'!" types and they're dangerous. Still, it's not often that one of them goes off.

7- Yeah, there are lots of points to having higher firepower by the police and military, but it's not for fighting off sensible people. One of the main reasons police armament has been upgraded to paramilitary proportions is to prevent another North Hollywood shootout, where the police were completely out-gunned.

Sure, some people obsess about gun specs- it may be their hobby but there's nothing that says they're going to go nuts and blow people away.

8- What are you on?

You completely missed the point of this thread. I asked, in order to find ways to stop ILLEGAL posession and use of firearms and you went bonkers by going after LEGAL gun ownership. The two are intermingled, but are not the same problem.

I get it- you hate this thread and that's OK. If you can't be civil, avoid it. However, it would be good if you educate yourself and learn the facts about gun crime. Politicians want to control people and control of all guns would make that easy in ways that we shouldn't want if they lean too hard.