Elon

[Trell]

Really? This is the first time I've seen this justification. Got any credible references?

Fixed that for you.

 

[everettT]

So all the illegals doing lawn care etc. that no one in the US would do are NOT contributing to the economy? OK so it takes 200000 of them for one Musk but which would really effect the economy more?

That isn't what I was trying say, I was commenting on Musk only and why investors insisted he obtain citizenship because of those contributions.

 

[TankTop5]

Really? This is the first time I've seen this justification. Got any references?

“who will do these jobs if we don’t have illegal immagrants…” Pretty much the same argument.

The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]

U.S. Slavery and Economic Thought - Econlib

Introduction Chattel slavery involves the ownership by one person of another. This entry focusses on the operation of that labor system in the United States. Although chattel slavery dates back to the dawn of civilization, in the area that became the United States it emerged after the...

www.econlib.org

 

[mtrycrafts]

“who will do these jobs if we don’t have illegal immagrants…” Pretty much the same argument.

The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]

U.S. Slavery and Economic Thought - Econlib

Introduction Chattel slavery involves the ownership by one person of another. This entry focusses on the operation of that labor system in the United States. Although chattel slavery dates back to the dawn of civilization, in the area that became the United States it emerged after the...

www.econlib.org

Is it even anywhere close to bring it up? Illegals working or needing them is nowhere close to the historical slavery.

 

[GO-NAD!]

“who will do these jobs if we don’t have illegal immagrants…” Pretty much the same argument.

The Southern Argument for Slavery [ushistory.org]

U.S. Slavery and Economic Thought - Econlib

Introduction Chattel slavery involves the ownership by one person of another. This entry focusses on the operation of that labor system in the United States. Although chattel slavery dates back to the dawn of civilization, in the area that became the United States it emerged after the...

www.econlib.org

I read through your attachment, but I don't see any link between the institution of slavery and the willingness (or lack thereof) of free labourers to seek plantation work. The American colonies were established at a time when indentured and enslaved labour were world-wide practices. I think it was the lack of available free labourers, rather than their willingness to work that lead to the use of indentured and enslaved people. Any free people would have been otherwise employed. That, or they would have starved.

Race and the Origins of Plantation Slavery | Oxford Research Encyclopedia of American History

 

[highfigh]

I read through your attachment, but I don't see any link between the institution of slavery and the willingness (or lack thereof) of free labourers to seek plantation work. The American colonies were established at a time when indentured and enslaved labour were world-wide practices. I think it was the lack of available free labourers, rather than their willingness to work that lead to the use of indentured and enslaved people. Any free people would have been otherwise employed. That, or they would have starved.

Race and the Origins of Plantation Slavery | Oxford Research Encyclopedia of American History

Some of the indentured didn't have enough money to pay their way to the colonies- hard labor wasn't the only way they paid the debt.

 

[Trell]

Some of the indentured didn't have enough money to pay their way to the colonies- hard labor wasn't the only way they paid the debt.

Yeah, inherited debt was a real thing, and still is in many parts of the world. With this I mean debt exceeding the value of the estate along with children having to pay the difference.

The indentured were not free to leave, though.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Some of the indentured didn't have enough money to pay their way to the colonies- hard labor wasn't the only way they paid the debt.

Some? I believe "didn't have enough money" was the primary reason they entered into such a relationship.

 

[highfigh]

Some? I believe "didn't have enough money" was the primary reason they entered into such a relationship.

It's likely that 'some' weren't asked if they wanted to go. In some cases, indenture is due to committing some offense against the party who paid and the work done by the offender was the restitution- the cost of passage was lower than the benefits from the work done but it wasn't necessarily slavery.

Indentured Servants In The U.S. | History Detectives | PBS

 

[Trell]

It's likely that 'some' weren't asked if they wanted to go. In some cases, indenture is due to committing some offense against the party who paid and the work done by the offender was the restitution- the cost of passage was lower than the benefits from the work done but it wasn't necessarily slavery.

Indentured Servants In The U.S. | History Detectives | PBS

Indenture was and is an evil exploitation of people, so what are you actually trying to say with your posts? Yes, I read your PBS link.

 

[GO-NAD!]

It's likely that 'some' weren't asked if they wanted to go. In some cases, indenture is due to committing some offense against the party who paid and the work done by the offender was the restitution- the cost of passage was lower than the benefits from the work done but it wasn't necessarily slavery.

Indentured Servants In The U.S. | History Detectives | PBS

Indentured servitude - Wikipedia

Between one-half and two-thirds of European immigrants to the American Colonies between the 1630s and the American Revolution came under indentures.[2] However, while almost half the European immigrants to the Thirteen Colonies were indentured servants, at any one time they were outnumbered by workers who had never been indentured, or whose indenture had expired, and thus free wage labor was the more prevalent for Europeans in the colonies.[3] Indentured people were numerically important mostly in the region from Virginia north to New Jersey. Other colonies saw far fewer of them. The total number of European immigrants to all 13 colonies before 1775 was about 500,000; of these 55,000 were involuntary prisoners. Of the 450,000 or so European arrivals who came voluntarily, Tomlins estimates that 48% were indentured.[4]

Indeed, "some" did not go voluntarily into indentured servitude, but were far outnumbered by those who did. Regardless, discussion of the circumstances leading to this status is a digression from my point - which is that slavery wasn't "justified" by proponents because free people weren't willing to take the jobs.

 

[Trell]

Regardless, discussion of the circumstances leading to this status is a digression from my point - which is that slavery wasn't "justified" by proponents because free people weren't willing to take the jobs.

@TankTop5 link did contain a number of “Christian” views as why slavery is “God’s will” and so forth. Interestingly, he did not mention that as a self professed “Christian”.

 

[eljr]

it's human nature to be evil.

QFT

 

[eljr]

And Melania had work issues as well.

She ignored her VISA to be exact. She then became illegal just like the South Americans coming over the boarder. Difference, she came her first class to take off her clothes.

But let's hate the people that walked for weeks to get here not the people who are worthless and arrive first class.

 

[Trell]

Ah he was an illegal hehehe.
Also heads DOGE but has billions in govt subsidies.

Government subsidies and handouts are only a problem if you don’t get most of it

 

[Trell]

QFT

You mean Quantum field theory?

 

[Trell]

I'm.not sure some of you understand Musk (not that I do). Yes, he had illegal status for a brief period, however he was contributing to the US economy and in other areas in favorable ways.

I can't speake for MAGA, but his case is completely different and I'm not sure how this is a valid comparison?.

Will rank hypocrisy suffice?

 

[everettT]

Will rank hypocrisy suffice?

Possibly

 

[highfigh]

Indentured servitude - Wikipedia


Indeed, "some" did not go voluntarily into indentured servitude, but were far outnumbered by those who did. Regardless, discussion of the circumstances leading to this status is a digression from my point - which is that slavery wasn't "justified" by proponents because free people weren't willing to take the jobs.

I'm a bit familiar with it- my 10th great grandfather was indentured and the info wa passed down.

I'm really tired of the "they do work that the Americans don't want to do", but from the standpoint of telling those Americans "Get off your ass and get a GD job!". So many think they're so effing special that manual labor is beneath them and these aren't middle-income or wealthy people, they're low income, uneducated/dropped out and sit on their butts or go into crime. Kids who get into trouble are frequently asked "Did you graduate" and they say "I dropped out because there was nothing for me in school". Yeah, there is- a way out of poverty. Then, they want $20/hour minimum wage, which is more than many skilled labor jobs pay.

I know several people who came to the US illegally and became citizens or are in the process- they came here to work, but some have gotten into trouble but they weren't a part of an organized crime gang, cartel, etc- they just drank far too much and got into a lot of fights.

That said, we need to check out who's coming across the border into the US, your country or any other. Not doing that is causing problems in all countries that allow it. The process shouldn't be a burden to anyone with a clean record, but it should weed out the bad ones, from any country.

 

[davidscott]

Funny how billionaires are going to decide on the fate of Medicare and SS for the common peeps. I'm sure Trump will once again reduce taxes for the ultra-rich. Oh well we voted for this.