Problems With Liberal Democracy

Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
You guessed wrong. I'm not a fan. I stated this more than once. However, I criticize him for actual faillings. I mean, I wouldn't expect Trump to leave the golf course to personally deal with a BLM protest either.
Understood, I was having one of my 'tongue-n-cheek' moments, besides I'm still pissed that one of my favorite restaurants in North America, located in Montreal is no longer, Queue De Cheval...........
 
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cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
I haven't looked into it, but on the surface it's odd to me one of Hunter's charges is possession of an illegal firearm. If that came from the Republican House, it's pretty LOL given their support of firearms. Seems like 'conspiracy to gain govt contracts' or something or other.
A little more than an illegal firearm.

"
After a week-long trial, a federal jury in the District of Delaware found Robert Hunter Biden guilty of three felonies connected with his illegal purchase of a firearm in October 2018, including making a false statement in the purchase of a firearm, making a false statement related to information required to be kept by a federally licensed firearms dealer, and possession of a firearm by a person who is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance.
“This case was about the illegal choices the defendant made while in the throes of addiction — his choice to lie on a government form when he bought a gun and the choice to then possess that gun,” said Special Counsel David C. Weiss. “It was these choices and the combination of guns and drugs that made his conduct dangerous. No one in this country is above the law. However, Hunter Biden should be no more accountable than any other citizen convicted of the same conduct. The prosecution has been and will continue to be committed to this principle, and to the principles of federal prosecution in carrying out its responsibilities.”
Biden purchased a Colt Cobra 38SPL revolver from a federally licensed firearms dealer on Oct. 12, 2018. When purchasing a firearm, a prospective purchaser must fill out a Firearm Transaction Record, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) Form 4473, and certify that all of his or her answers on the form are true and correct.
According to the evidence presented at trial, Biden knowingly made a false written statement on the ATF Form 4473 when he certified that he was not an unlawful user of, or addicted to, any stimulant, narcotic drug or any other controlled substance. In fact, he knew that statement was false. Evidence at trial further proved that Biden knowingly made a false statement and representation to a federally licensed firearms dealer with respect to information the dealer is required to keep under federal law. Lastly, during an 11-day period between Oct. 12 and Oct. 23, 2018, Biden possessed a firearm while knowing he was an unlawful user of or addicted to any stimulant, narcotic drug or any other controlled substance, in violation of federal law.
Court documents and information for this case is located on the website of the U.S. District Court for the District of Delaware or on PACER by searching for Case No. 23-cr-00061-MN.

Updated June 11, 2024 https://www.justice.gov/sco-weiss/pr/robert-hunter-biden-found-guilty-three-felonies-related-illegal-purchase-firearm
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Which actions, lying or the pardon?

I watched a John Stewart video last night and he made an interesting comment- "Eleven years is awfully specific". What crimes did he commit eleven years ago that might cause him to be imprisoned and how serious were they? That hardly seems to be a case of "I'm only pardoning him for the crimes the general public know about".

Hunter lied about his drug use, which means he is guilty of a Federal crime. I wouldn't have as much problem if it had been less serious, but 'The Big Guy' lying about it for so long and then reversing? That's bad. Also, this was obviously during Biden's term, so we really don't need to see anything about weaponized DOJ.

From the second link-

"As I also said last week, I will accept the outcome of this case and will continue to respect the judicial process as Hunter considers an appeal."

The link also shows the potential penalties and this is a quote from that-

"Hunter Biden could face up to 25 years in prison and a fine of up to $750,000 at sentencing, though he likely will receive far less than the maximum as a first-time offender. "

From the first link-

"Penalties for Making a False Statement on a Firearms Transaction Record
Intentionally and knowingly making a false statement on a Firearms Transaction Record can result in up to 10 years in federal prison. Failing to disclose illegal drug use (including marijuana) or an addiction is a felony punishable by up to 5 years in prison.".


Any other skeletons that may or may not be hanging out in Hunter's closet is a matter of conjecture at this point.

In case I wasn't clear enough already:

While I'm disappointed in Joe doing an about-turn on his promise not to pardon his son, this isn't a 'both sides' issue. If anyone expects snow-white purity from any political party, they will be perennially disappointed. But, in today's context, when we compare the Democrats' and the GOP's efforts to "do the right thing", I don't think there is much of a contest. While the Democrats set themselves a high bar and often fail to clear it, during the Trump era, the GOP seems to be following a nihilistic "the ends justify any and all means" philosophy.

To reiterate, Joe shouldn't have the sole prerogative to pardon anyone, as Trump shouldn't have been able to pardon a veritable rogue's gallery of henchmen - it is a clear conflict-of-interest.

I knew the process for being granted a pardon was different in Canada, but I didn't realise how stringent it was:
Canadian Pardons - FAQs | Pardons Canada

"What is a pardon/record suspension?
A pardon/record suspension allows people who were convicted of a criminal offence, but have completed their sentence and demonstrated they are law-abiding citizens, to have their criminal record kept separate and apart from other active criminal records. Pardons/Record Suspensions are issued by the federal government of Canada. This means that any search of the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) will not show that you had a criminal record, or that you were issued a pardon/record suspension.

Who can grant or issue a pardon/record suspension?
The Parole Board of Canada (PBC) has exclusive jurisdiction to grant, refuse to grant or to revoke a pardon/record suspension. The law that governs pardons/record suspensions is known as the Criminal Records Act (CRA). The Criminal Records Act provides for the relief of persons who have been convicted of offences and have subsequently rehabilitated themselves.

How likely am I to be granted a pardon/record suspension?
If you have waited the requisite time period (5, or 10 years) after the sentence imposed was completed, and if you have all the proper supporting documents and have been of good conduct, the federal government will grant you a pardon/record suspension. Pardons/Record Suspensions are not granted if you have a sexual offence against a minor or if you have more than 3 convictions where you received sentencing with more than 2 years jailtime.

What happens if I have a pardon/record suspension and I get charged again?
Your pardon/record suspension can be revoked. If you are convicted of an indictable offence (more serious offence) your pardon/record suspension ceases and your past convictions will once again be on your criminal record. If you are convicted of a summary offence (less serious), or given a discharge, the PBC may revoke your pardon/record suspension. A pardon/record suspension may also be revoked if the PBC learns that a false or deceptive statement was made or relevant information was concealed at the time of the application."

In Canada, neither Hunter, nor Trump's cronies would be granted pardons, as none qualify. Ya do the crime, ya gotta do the time first, before even being considered. Being given a get-out-of-jail-free card before even being charged is impossible.

It's ironic that while Canada is a (constitutional) monarchy, American presidents have a right that smacks of the royal prerogative of old-time monarchs. Go figure...
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
... It's ironic that while Canada is a (constitutional) monarchy, American presidents have a right that smacks of the royal prerogative of old-time monarchs. Go figure...
Add to this the recent US Supreme Court giving the President very broad criminal immunity even after leaving office. So, tongue-in-cheek, USA got their old-time monarch in the end.

In any case, Americans can lo longer in good faith claim that no-one is above the law.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Any other skeletons that may or may not be hanging out in Hunter's closet is a matter of conjecture at this point.

In case I wasn't clear enough already:

While I'm disappointed in Joe doing an about-turn on his promise not to pardon his son, this isn't a 'both sides' issue. If anyone expects snow-white purity from any political party, they will be perennially disappointed. But, in today's context, when we compare the Democrats' and the GOP's efforts to "do the right thing", I don't think there is much of a contest. While the Democrats set themselves a high bar and often fail to clear it, during the Trump era, the GOP seems to be following a nihilistic "the ends justify any and all means" philosophy.

To reiterate, Joe shouldn't have the sole prerogative to pardon anyone, as Trump shouldn't have been able to pardon a veritable rogue's gallery of henchmen - it is a clear conflict-of-interest.

I knew the process for being granted a pardon was different in Canada, but I didn't realise how stringent it was:
Canadian Pardons - FAQs | Pardons Canada

"What is a pardon/record suspension?
A pardon/record suspension allows people who were convicted of a criminal offence, but have completed their sentence and demonstrated they are law-abiding citizens, to have their criminal record kept separate and apart from other active criminal records. Pardons/Record Suspensions are issued by the federal government of Canada. This means that any search of the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) will not show that you had a criminal record, or that you were issued a pardon/record suspension.

Who can grant or issue a pardon/record suspension?
The Parole Board of Canada (PBC) has exclusive jurisdiction to grant, refuse to grant or to revoke a pardon/record suspension. The law that governs pardons/record suspensions is known as the Criminal Records Act (CRA). The Criminal Records Act provides for the relief of persons who have been convicted of offences and have subsequently rehabilitated themselves.

How likely am I to be granted a pardon/record suspension?
If you have waited the requisite time period (5, or 10 years) after the sentence imposed was completed, and if you have all the proper supporting documents and have been of good conduct, the federal government will grant you a pardon/record suspension. Pardons/Record Suspensions are not granted if you have a sexual offence against a minor or if you have more than 3 convictions where you received sentencing with more than 2 years jailtime.

What happens if I have a pardon/record suspension and I get charged again?
Your pardon/record suspension can be revoked. If you are convicted of an indictable offence (more serious offence) your pardon/record suspension ceases and your past convictions will once again be on your criminal record. If you are convicted of a summary offence (less serious), or given a discharge, the PBC may revoke your pardon/record suspension. A pardon/record suspension may also be revoked if the PBC learns that a false or deceptive statement was made or relevant information was concealed at the time of the application."

In Canada, neither Hunter, nor Trump's cronies would be granted pardons, as none qualify. Ya do the crime, ya gotta do the time first, before even being considered. Being given a get-out-of-jail-free card before even being charged is impossible.

It's ironic that while Canada is a (constitutional) monarchy, American presidents have a right that smacks of the royal prerogative of old-time monarchs. Go figure...
You were clear and I agree on most points- I'm less disappointed and more pissed off about the pardon- he isn't known for his honesty, yet the Dems and media defended him and deflected any comments about him being likely to pardon as politically-motivated. No, that was based on his past as a liar, embellisher and plagiarist. Later, he became less able to distinguish fact from fantasy.

I don't like one person being able to pardon anyone without oversight- doesn't matter who's in office. This needs to change.

Now, I'm seeing that the WH is planning preemptive pardons for Fauci and others.

US government needs a good cleaning and some parts need to be re-tooled. The Founding Fathers never saw this kind of crap coming.

Canada is more strict on crime and that extended to just entering the country for vacations- I know someone who was denied entry because of a DUI conviction but that may have changed in the last 20-ish years. Here, murderers are (far too) often released after only a few years in prison. An Afghani was arrested for plotting a terrorist attack, in the name of ISIS-

 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
You were clear and I agree on most points- I'm less disappointed and more pissed off about the pardon- he isn't known for his honesty, yet the Dems and media defended him and deflected any comments about him being likely to pardon as politically-motivated. No, that was based on his past as a liar, embellisher and plagiarist. Later, he became less able to distinguish fact from fantasy.
Are you confusing Trump with Biden?
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
You were clear and I agree on most points- I'm less disappointed and more pissed off about the pardon- he isn't known for his honesty, yet the Dems and media defended him and deflected any comments about him being likely to pardon as politically-motivated. No, that was based on his past as a liar, embellisher and plagiarist. Later, he became less able to distinguish fact from fantasy. I don't like one person being able to pardon anyone without oversight- doesn't matter who's in office. This needs to change.
I haven't seen a politician yet who hasn't lied at some point. That said, I don't get the impression that Biden has been especially mendacious when compard with his peers. Bear in mind, he's been around a looong time, so untruths and partial truths are gonna pile up over time. He may have actually meant it when he said he wouldn't pardon Hunter. But, the events over the succeeding months may have caused him to reconsider. Again, such an expansive right to pardon shouldn't be in his hands - but he does have the right, so he's free to exercise it.
Now, I'm seeing that the WH is planning preemptive pardons for Fauci and others.

US government needs a good cleaning and some parts need to be re-tooled. The Founding Fathers never saw this kind of crap coming.
Notwithstanding my previous statements, I can see justification for a preemptive pardon for Fauci, considering all the threats coming from MAGA to prosecute persecute him. One could say, "Well, if he's innocent, that will be born out in the court of law." Left unspoken, is that the point would be to torture him in - a conviction for some imagined crime would just be a bonus.
Canada is more strict on crime and that extended to just entering the country for vacations- I know someone who was denied entry because of a DUI conviction but that may have changed in the last 20-ish years. Here, murderers are (far too) often released after only a few years in prison. An Afghani was arrested for plotting a terrorist attack, in the name of ISIS-

I don't think I agree on that point. The incarceration rate in the US is about 6 times higher than in Canada. And, entry rules are similar in the US - Canadians can be denied admission to the US for a DUI, as well.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Notwithstanding my previous statements, I can see justification for a preemptive pardon for Fauci, considering all the threats coming from MAGA to prosecute persecute him. One could say, "Well, if he's innocent, that will be born out in the court of law." Left unspoken, is that the point would be to torture him in - a conviction for some imagined crime would just be a bonus.
The play would be to drive Fauci, and other Trump targets, to economic hardship and bankruptcy by fraudulent investigations. Good lawyers are expensive.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I haven't seen a politician yet who hasn't lied at some point. That said, I don't get the impression that Biden has been especially mendacious when compard with his peers. Bear in mind, he's been around a looong time, so untruths and partial truths are gonna pile up over time. He may have actually meant it when he said he wouldn't pardon Hunter. But, the events over the succeeding months may have caused him to reconsider. Again, such an expansive right to pardon shouldn't be in his hands - but he does have the right, so he's free to exercise it.

Notwithstanding my previous statements, I can see justification for a preemptive pardon for Fauci, considering all the threats coming from MAGA to prosecute persecute him. One could say, "Well, if he's innocent, that will be born out in the court of law." Left unspoken, is that the point would be to torture him in - a conviction for some imagined crime would just be a bonus.

I don't think I agree on that point. The incarceration rate in the US is about 6 times higher than in Canada. And, entry rules are similar in the US - Canadians can be denied admission to the US for a DUI, as well.
I have a problem with Biden 'being around' for a long time- 51 years is too damn long to be in government. Partial truths? Like being at or near the to of his class? He plagiarized material when he was in college, said his family worked in the mines and then laughed about it, saying "Of course not, but they could have". That lie was told during one of his campaigns, so it applies to 'politicians lying at some point', usually to fool people into voting for them and they don't have a problem with doing this!

Would you tell a child that he won't be in trouble in the future, for something they have done? Threats of prosecution don't matter, only the evidence that might lead to a trial and possibly, conviction. Anything else is just speculation.

This isn't the same as removing a DUI from someone's record and in reality, it makes the FBI form look like it doesn't have any teeth if it's so easy to lie on it and I have commented on that many times, too- it needs to be made more difficult to slide past some of the questions.

And do you know why the incarceration rate is so high? It's because so many people have committed serious offenses! You can't just say "it's about six times that of Canada" without looking at the crimes. People like to bitch about "He only sold drugs"- well, if someone sells bales of pot or ounces of coke, is that not a crime? It's called 'distribution' when they have more than a small amount when they're searched and knowing that someone has a drug problem and still selling to them?

The link shows the number of deaths due to Fentanyl.


I have known too many people whose lives were ruined by drugs and died by OD or violence surrounding the drug trade to be OK with letting dealers go unpunished and it's not as if I hung out with drug users, these were people I knew from school, met, worked with, were neighbors or friends/acquaintances of friends.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I have a problem with Biden 'being around' for a long time- 51 years is too damn long to be in government. Partial truths? Like being at or near the to of his class? He plagiarized material when he was in college, said his family worked in the mines and then laughed about it, saying "Of course not, but they could have". That lie was told during one of his campaigns, so it applies to 'politicians lying at some point', usually to fool people into voting for them and they don't have a problem with doing this!
Yet again you’re carrying water for Trump.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
And do you know why the incarceration rate is so high? It's because so many people have committed serious offenses! You can't just say "it's about six times that of Canada" without looking at the crimes. People like to bitch about "He only sold drugs"- well, if someone sells bales of pot or ounces of coke, is that not a crime? It's called 'distribution' when they have more than a small amount when they're searched and knowing that someone has a drug problem and still selling to them?

The link shows the number of deaths due to Fentanyl.


I have known too many people whose lives were ruined by drugs and died by OD or violence surrounding the drug trade to be OK with letting dealers go unpunished and it's not as if I hung out with drug users, these were people I knew from school, met, worked with, were neighbors or friends/acquaintances of friends.
I think you may have missed the point of that statement, which was a response to this:
Canada is more strict on crime and that extended to just entering the country for vacations- I know someone who was denied entry because of a DUI conviction but that may have changed in the last 20-ish years.
Canada cannot, by any objective measure, be considered "more strict on crime". And, fentanyl is a worldwide problem, not just in the US.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I think you may have missed the point of that statement, which was a response to this:

Canada cannot, by any objective measure, be considered "more strict on crime". And, fentanyl is a worldwide problem, not just in the US.
Why not? Canada is separate from other countries, so the laws can be whatever can be passed and tolerated.

Our criminal justice system is very screwed up. Good design, bad implementation.

Do the Canadian courts allow people who were accused of homicide go free with an ankle monitor because a speedy trial can't be guaranteed, due to the court not having enough defense attorneys? That happens here and a 19 year old young woman was shot dead about 1/4 mile from my house because the guy had been released after 11 months in custody. The real kicker- he was barely 17 years old when the nearby shooting happened and that means he was 15 or barely 16 when he was arrested the first time, for homicide. 15-17 year old murderers aren't uncommon here.

I sincerely hope you don't have the same problems or the same level of severity in Canada.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Add to this the recent US Supreme Court giving the President very broad criminal immunity even after leaving office. So, tongue-in-cheek, USA got their old-time monarch in the end.

In any case, Americans can lo longer in good faith claim that no-one is above the law.
I am pretty sure SCOTUS indicated "official duties" he is immune. Non-official, paying off someone is not official duties but then SCOTUS would have to decide each case, official or no, most likely. What a cluster f...
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Why not? Canada is separate from other countries, so the laws can be whatever can be passed and tolerated.

Our criminal justice system is very screwed up. Good design, bad implementation.

Do the Canadian courts allow people who were accused of homicide go free with an ankle monitor because a speedy trial can't be guaranteed, due to the court not having enough defense attorneys? That happens here and a 19 year old young woman was shot dead about 1/4 mile from my house because the guy had been released after 11 months in custody. The real kicker- he was barely 17 years old when the nearby shooting happened and that means he was 15 or barely 16 when he was arrested the first time, for homicide. 15-17 year old murderers aren't uncommon here.

I sincerely hope you don't have the same problems or the same level of severity in Canada.
Well, the massive difference in the incarceration rate is the single biggest indicator that we aren't more strict on crime. We don't have a death penalty either and a "Three-strikes" law has been ruled unconstitutional.
Do cases get dismissed in the US if it takes too long to get to trial?
Long delays and collapsed cases are eroding faith in the justice system, lawyers warn | CBC News

We also occasionally see people out on bail or on probation committing major crimes. I would expect that there are similar incidents in other countries, as well, to varying degrees.

That said, I'm not a big fan of addressing crime primarily through the justice system. More draconian laws and enforcement have not been effective deterrents. I'd prefer a society that emphasises heading off criminal behaviour before it happens. That's the way a liberal democracy should work.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, the massive difference in the incarceration rate is the single biggest indicator that we aren't more strict on crime. We don't have a death penalty either and a "Three-strikes" law has been ruled unconstitutional.
Do cases get dismissed in the US if it takes too long to get to trial?
Long delays and collapsed cases are eroding faith in the justice system, lawyers warn | CBC News

We also occasionally see people out on bail or on probation committing major crimes. I would expect that there are similar incidents in other countries, as well, to varying degrees.

That said, I'm not a big fan of addressing crime primarily through the justice system. More draconian laws and enforcement have not been effective deterrents. I'd prefer a society that emphasises heading off criminal behaviour before it happens. That's the way a liberal democracy should work.
I don't know why you and others can't see or allow yourselves to see that the people in our countries ARE NOT the same. That baffles me- the fact that Canada doesn't have the same incarceration rate means that Canadians aren't as violent and if I'll recommend checking the stats, rather than showing them. WRT death penalty, I wouldn't want to be on a jury that imposes it- I don't think we need to get into the 'they don't deserve to live after killing 20'- I would rather not pass judgement. The 3 strikes program- I think that some criminals have a very hard time with living a peaceful life and find it hard to not stop being incredibly violent. What should be done with them? Three pot busts or other minor crimes shouldn't land anyone in prison.

Cases aren't dismissed if a speedy trial can't be held, but many effectively end with the accused being arrested and convicted for another crime, which is what happened in the case I mentioned. The reason for the delay in the first was due to the main witness not being willing to testify against the accused. No witness, no prosecution. If a witness signs an affidavit before the trial and refuses to testify against, they're guilty of perjury but the accused ends up being freed. This is part of your example of collapsed cases and it happens frequently. In some US locations, the courts went to a 'no cash bail' system and that bit them on the butt, hard. Letting people out on their own recognizance often is the last thing that should be done- bail is supposed to cause someone to show up at the trial but when they have nothing at stake, why would they? Then, bail jumping is added to their other crime(s) and they need to be found. No cash bail is losing support, as it should. The complaint against cash bail is that it's racist and places a hardship on the accused and their families. The guy who drove through the Christmas Parade near Milwaukee was released on $500 bond, paid my his mother, whose vehicle was used for this attack and also, to run over the mother of his child and that was the cause of the case before the parade. He claimed that he had no money, so the judge lowered the bond from $10K to $500.

Should past criminal history have any bearing on a case? Here, it's not supposed to, but I would ask- what should be done with someone like this guy, if you read about his past (in the link)? Because of this, 6 are dead and more than 60 injured.


Some prisons have programs for education and rehabilitation, others just let them sit and rot but like drug abusers, they need to WANT TO be educated or rehabilitated in order for that to work. Instead, many prisoners come out worse than they were before being confined, with a greater number of more dangerous contacts for the outside world.

Some people are mentally defective, some got into trouble by associating with bad people but some are raised, well, they AREN'T raised, they're more feral than that. One parent 'families' that don't fit the definition that are effectively parent-less, lack of education (whether it's by the parent's lack of care, student's decision to stop going to school, peer pressure, etc) and being part of the culture of terrible behavior, crime is inevitable. Parents aren't doing their job, people are having kids without any care for their well-being, violence in the home and at school, abuse of all kinds, trafficking, early use of drugs- where does it stop? What do we do about kids stealing cars, committing armed robbery and other major crimes when they're as young as 9-10 years old?

The link is from the NIH and shows that exposure to lead and its impact on criminal/anti-social behavior is not negligible. It includes Milwaukee in this study and it's not surprising, do to the lack of effort by the city to eliminate lead pipes feeding homes from the water supply system. The city leaders have done nothing, aside from kicking that can down the road, in hopes that someone (Federal Government) will pay for the removal and installation of an alternative. As I have posted, crime is rampant here and while it has periodic decreases, it's trending upward anyway.


I'm a big fan of parents doing their job, raising their kids to respect the parents, themselves and others. There's not enough of that now and I don't mean 'respect' in the sense where someone attacks another person when "they disrespected me", as if they deserve total respect just because they exist. Basic respect, sure, but to a large degree, respect is earned and it can also be lost, very easily. I think the prison systems need to rehabilitate, not just let prisoners rot, only to die outside or return, after more and worse crimes have been committed.

There's so much more to this that we don't have space to address it but IMO, parents have really dropped the ball, in all levels of income, class, whatever it can be called.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know why you and others can't see or allow yourselves to see that the people in our countries ARE NOT the same. That baffles me- the fact that Canada doesn't have the same incarceration rate means that Canadians aren't as violent and if I'll recommend checking the stats, rather than showing them.
@GO-NAD! was just trying to be kind as a Canadian from Newfoundland.

Me? I’m Norwegian and not as kind. The fences at your borders is to keep the rest of the world safe from you. ;) :p
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know why you and others can't see or allow yourselves to see that the people in our countries ARE NOT the same. That baffles me- the fact that Canada doesn't have the same incarceration rate means that Canadians aren't as violent and if I'll recommend checking the stats, rather than showing them. WRT death penalty, I wouldn't want to be on a jury that imposes it- I don't think we need to get into the 'they don't deserve to live after killing 20'- I would rather not pass judgement. The 3 strikes program- I think that some criminals have a very hard time with living a peaceful life and find it hard to not stop being incredibly violent. What should be done with them? Three pot busts or other minor crimes shouldn't land anyone in prison.

Cases aren't dismissed if a speedy trial can't be held, but many effectively end with the accused being arrested and convicted for another crime, which is what happened in the case I mentioned. The reason for the delay in the first was due to the main witness not being willing to testify against the accused. No witness, no prosecution. If a witness signs an affidavit before the trial and refuses to testify against, they're guilty of perjury but the accused ends up being freed. This is part of your example of collapsed cases and it happens frequently. In some US locations, the courts went to a 'no cash bail' system and that bit them on the butt, hard. Letting people out on their own recognizance often is the last thing that should be done- bail is supposed to cause someone to show up at the trial but when they have nothing at stake, why would they? Then, bail jumping is added to their other crime(s) and they need to be found. No cash bail is losing support, as it should. The complaint against cash bail is that it's racist and places a hardship on the accused and their families. The guy who drove through the Christmas Parade near Milwaukee was released on $500 bond, paid my his mother, whose vehicle was used for this attack and also, to run over the mother of his child and that was the cause of the case before the parade. He claimed that he had no money, so the judge lowered the bond from $10K to $500.

Should past criminal history have any bearing on a case? Here, it's not supposed to, but I would ask- what should be done with someone like this guy, if you read about his past (in the link)? Because of this, 6 are dead and more than 60 injured.


Some prisons have programs for education and rehabilitation, others just let them sit and rot but like drug abusers, they need to WANT TO be educated or rehabilitated in order for that to work. Instead, many prisoners come out worse than they were before being confined, with a greater number of more dangerous contacts for the outside world.

Some people are mentally defective, some got into trouble by associating with bad people but some are raised, well, they AREN'T raised, they're more feral than that. One parent 'families' that don't fit the definition that are effectively parent-less, lack of education (whether it's by the parent's lack of care, student's decision to stop going to school, peer pressure, etc) and being part of the culture of terrible behavior, crime is inevitable. Parents aren't doing their job, people are having kids without any care for their well-being, violence in the home and at school, abuse of all kinds, trafficking, early use of drugs- where does it stop? What do we do about kids stealing cars, committing armed robbery and other major crimes when they're as young as 9-10 years old?

The link is from the NIH and shows that exposure to lead and its impact on criminal/anti-social behavior is not negligible. It includes Milwaukee in this study and it's not surprising, do to the lack of effort by the city to eliminate lead pipes feeding homes from the water supply system. The city leaders have done nothing, aside from kicking that can down the road, in hopes that someone (Federal Government) will pay for the removal and installation of an alternative. As I have posted, crime is rampant here and while it has periodic decreases, it's trending upward anyway.


I'm a big fan of parents doing their job, raising their kids to respect the parents, themselves and others. There's not enough of that now and I don't mean 'respect' in the sense where someone attacks another person when "they disrespected me", as if they deserve total respect just because they exist. Basic respect, sure, but to a large degree, respect is earned and it can also be lost, very easily. I think the prison systems need to rehabilitate, not just let prisoners rot, only to die outside or return, after more and worse crimes have been committed.

There's so much more to this that we don't have space to address it but IMO, parents have really dropped the ball, in all levels of income, class, whatever it can be called.
People are the same everywhere. It's the socio/economic conditions they live in that shape them - for good or ill. Individuals in different countries are no more or less inherently evil. If you have a higher crime rate, it isn't because more "bad" people were born there; it's because conditions have lead to people to become, er'..."badder"... and commit more crimes.

Societal conditions create "bad" parents, they aren't born predisposed to be worse than parents in other countries. Badgering people to be better parents - or not have kids at all - won't help. And, forcing women to give birth, rather than giving them a choice certainly won't help.

Social supports should be in place to help prevent people from falling off the rails before crime happens. Something as simple as subsidized daycare and after school programs can help keep parents in the workforce and kids off the streets.

We should be concentrating on preventing crime, not becoming more draconian in our punishment. Electrocuting a murderer won't bring a victim back to life, locking up and throwing away the key on a rapist won't un-rape a woman and jailing a burglar for X number of years won't un-ransack a home.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
People are the same everywhere. It's the socio/economic conditions they live in that shape them - for good or ill. Individuals in different countries are no more or less inherently evil. If you have a higher crime rate, it isn't because more "bad" people were born there; it's because conditions have lead to people to become, er'..."badder"... and commit more crimes.

Societal conditions create "bad" parents, they aren't born predisposed to be worse than parents in other countries. Badgering people to be better parents - or not have kids at all - won't help. And, forcing women to give birth, rather than giving them a choice certainly won't help.

Social supports should be in place to help prevent people from falling off the rails before crime happens. Something as simple as subsidized daycare and after school programs can help keep parents in the workforce and kids off the streets.

We should be concentrating on preventing crime, not becoming more draconian in our punishment. Electrocuting a murderer won't bring a victim back to life, locking up and throwing away the key on a rapist won't un-rape a woman and jailing a burglar for X number of years won't un-ransack a home.
I agree with parts, but I give up on others. Where did I write anything about being predisposed? I offered the lead toxicity as one reason and it HAS been shown to be part of the problem. That doesn't have anything to do with the parents, it's the fault of the cities that left lead pipes in place. This isn't just in the city of MKE, it's also in the surrounding areas and other places around the country.

How can people BE the same if they're from cultures that are so different? There's no way to prove that. Culture forms people into whatever they become- change the bad cultures and fewer bad people will be the result but nobody is changing the bad cultures. OTOH, some people would never do some of the things others seem to have no problem with, even though they come from the same families, neighborhoods, cities and cultures.

WRT not allowing rape victims to end a pregnancy is those who are too entrenched in their religion and they were allowed to write laws. That needs to change, too. I don't see it happening anytime soon, though.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with parts, but I give up on others. Where did I write anything about being predisposed? I offered the lead toxicity as one reason and it HAS been shown to be part of the problem. That doesn't have anything to do with the parents, it's the fault of the cities that left lead pipes in place. This isn't just in the city of MKE, it's also in the surrounding areas and other places around the country.
Lead is widely used all over the world in existing pipes, and have been so for many decades. USA is not an outlier here.

How can people BE the same if they're from cultures that are so different? There's no way to prove that. Culture forms people into whatever they become- change the bad cultures and fewer bad people will be the result but nobody is changing the bad cultures. OTOH, some people would never do some of the things others seem to have no problem with, even though they come from the same families, neighborhoods, cities and cultures.
Now this is a blast from the 1930'ies eugenics.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I agree with parts, but I give up on others. Where did I write anything about being predisposed?
You didn't. And, I did not imply that you did. I was making a statement, not countering one.
I offered the lead toxicity as one reason and it HAS been shown to be part of the problem. That doesn't have anything to do with the parents, it's the fault of the cities that left lead pipes in place. This isn't just in the city of MKE, it's also in the surrounding areas and other places around the country.
Do you think other countries haven't/don't use lead pipe for their water supplys?
How can people BE the same if they're from cultures that are so different? There's no way to prove that. Culture forms people into whatever they become- change the bad cultures and fewer bad people will be the result but nobody is changing the bad cultures. OTOH, some people would never do some of the things others seem to have no problem with, even though they come from the same families, neighborhoods, cities and cultures.

WRT not allowing rape victims to end a pregnancy is those who are too entrenched in their religion and they were allowed to write laws. That needs to change, too. I don't see it happening anytime soon, though.
People are the same in that we are all from the same species (at least I think we all are) - homo sapiens sapiens. When a population reaches a critical mass, we can expect that the proportion of natural born criminally-minded, eg. psycho/sociopaths, would be pretty similar from one country to the next. The rest is up to the society people live in. So, if your crime rate is exceptionally high, we can't just blame the criminal and his parents. You have to hold your society accountable, as well.

Socio-economic conditions have a strong influence on how culture forms. Gang culture didn't evolve out of a vacuum, after all.
 

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