Bad day to be a terrorist

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Afghanistan caused many, many more deaths and wounded.
The Lebanese civil war had an estimated 250,000 deaths and 80% of those Civilian. King al-Assad put down the city of Hama (~40,000) because to make a point about challenging his authority.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
A tragedy is that the Palestinians where expelled/driven out from Israel in 1948
Hold on a second here. This is categorically a gross misstatement. It's estimated that 500,000 to 600,000 Palestinians voluntarily left at the urging on the Arab League nations (Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemin) so these countries could bring their full 80:1 manpower and modern mechanized armaments (Egypt) to bear against Israel.

The promise was once it was over that they could move back. But here's the thing: The Arab League nations had already divided up the Levant amongst themselves. Palestinians were going to get totally shafted.

A good remainder of the Palestinians that remained raised arms against Israel and Israel needed buffer and did forcibly expel about 1-200,000 Palestinians and took over Gaza, West Bank etc as straight up spoils of war.

Did you know after the Arab Leagues defeat that those countries forcibly expelled their Jewish population to the tune of 900,000?

Here's the kicker: None of the Arab League members were willing to permanently absorb the Palestinians. The 900,000 Jews? Israel took them in.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Then you fcukin' lose. But winning by becoming your enemy and committing crimes against humanity? Is that your solution?
C'mon, Jin, I thought you were smarter than that.

If you read what I wrote in this thread then you know I am fully against the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah, that I agree that Israel has the absolute right to defend themselves.

The only thing I don't agree with are the borderline criminal actions of the hawks calling the shots in Israel. I'm not impressed by Netanyahu and his ultra right coalition.

If I'm dumb for that, I'll wear your box as proudly as I do the ones I got for calling Racist Dipsh!ts out for being Racist.
WOW. You have to take the long historical context into account and how it informs Israeli thinking. This is an existential fight many Israelis.

If you read what others wrote that Israel losing is HAMAS and others coming and piling up every single Israeli infant and child onto a pile as possible big as they can make it.

I think you are being naive.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In other news...

Haaretz is considered highly factual and credible while being a left-leaning paper... either way its not surprising to see this.
Agreed. Sadly this is 'good for business'.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Just some context for the Hezbollah apologists out there:

The 2020 Beirut port explosion, one of the largest non-nuclear explosions in history, from a Hezbollah stockpile of nitrate, that the Lebanese government had to have known about, killed ~250, injured 6000, and leveled a good part of Beirut.
 
J

Jeepers

Full Audioholic
Then why the West Bank? And they are still refugee status. Israel took in refugees and made them citizens.

So I think my point still stands.
From the link :
Today, most Palestinians and their descendants in Jordan are naturalized, making Jordan the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees of 1948

And what does 'naturalized' mean to you ?

naturalize :
to make someone a legal citizen of a country that they were not born in


Israel took in 900,000 Jews but there are many more Palestinian refugees; do you really expect Jordan to take all of them in ?
Your point stands for the Arab League countries except Jordan.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
And your point? I think it's more than arguable that they knew exactly what they were electing and ok with it.
Maybe it was a case of being willing to take a chance on an alternative to a party (Fatah) that had a well-earned reputation for corruption and ineptness. Of course, it turned out to be another case of voting for the "Leopards Eating People's Faces Party", then later saying "I didn't think they would eat my face."
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
From the link :
Today, most Palestinians and their descendants in Jordan are naturalized, making Jordan the only Arab country to fully integrate the Palestinian refugees of 1948

And what does 'naturalized' mean to you ?

naturalize :
to make someone a legal citizen of a country that they were not born in


Israel took in 900,000 Jews but there are many more Palestinian refugees; do you really expect Jordan to take all of them in ?
Your point stands for the Arab League countries except Jordan.
Thanks for the correction. I've adjusted my understanding.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Maybe it was a case of being willing to take a chance on an alternative to a party (Fatah) that had a well-earned reputation for corruption and ineptness. Of course, it turned out to be another case of voting for the "Leopards Eating People's Faces Party", then later saying "I didn't think they would eat my face."
All I know is Israel has made peace with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. Heck you have have Hillary Clinton calling out the Gaza protestors here in the States for being totally ignorant of the history and Israeli good faith concessions for peace with the Palestinians. Even after the Munich Olympics Massacre Israel was willing to sit down with terrorists for peace.

Peace is important enough to Israel that after they took the Sinai from Egypt as a spoils of war, they gave it back for a peace agreement.

Flip this over to the Palestinians and the PLO: PLO attempted coups is both Jordan and Lebanon when they setup shop there.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
BTW Israel, historically, have done some heinous stuff also. In Lebanon they let the Christian Phalangist do their dirty work for them all while turning a blind eye. Just one example.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
WOW. You have to take the long historical context into account and how it informs Israeli thinking. This is an existential fight many Israelis.

If you read what others wrote that Israel losing is HAMAS and others coming and piling up every single Israeli infant and child onto a pile as possible big as they can make it.

I think you are being naive.
This very much is existential for Israelis. While they are currently in no real danger of being overwhelmed, that doesn't do much to alleviate their paranoia. A couple of millennia of experience has taught the Jewish people that when sh1t gets real, they can only depend on themselves.

If you aren't familiar with the story, this is a good illustration of where they stand:
Hamas’s forever war against Israel has a glitch, and it isn’t Iron Dome | The Times of Israel

From the article:
In the mid-1990s, two IDF major generals were coming to the end of their long and storied military careers. Meir Dagan had led everything from commando squads to armored brigades and would later go on to serve as director of the Mossad. Yossi Ben Hanan, after serving as one of Israel’s most successful tank commanders in the 1973 war, would go on to lead the armored corps and the IDF’s R&D arm — though he is most famous for the 1967 Life magazine cover photo of his 22-year-old self standing in the waters of the Suez Canal, a symbol of Israeli vitality and military success.

By the mid-1990s, the two grizzled veterans, newly released from their military duties, planned to travel together to Vietnam. Both were avid students of military history, including of the Vietnam conflict. They applied for visas and made a special request to the Vietnamese authorities: to meet General Vo Nguyen Giap.

....

Unexpectedly, the request was approved. Giap agreed to meet them. When the Israelis arrived in Vietnam, they sat down with the man who by then had spent decades as his country’s defense minister. It was a long meeting, as Ben Hanan would later recall to Eran Lerman, a former top-ranked IDF intelligence officer and later deputy national security adviser. Lerman, now at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategy and Security, told the story to this writer.

When the Israelis rose to leave, Giap suddenly turned to the Palestinian issue. “Listen,” he said, “the Palestinians are always coming here and saying to me, ‘You expelled the French and the Americans. How do we expel the Jews?’”

The generals were intrigued. “And what do you tell them?”

“I tell them,” Giap replied, “that the French went back to France and the Americans to America. But the Jews have nowhere to go. You will not expel them.
I'm of the opinion that when the Israelis say "Never again", they really mean it. They will turn the middle east into a barren sheet of radioactive glass before they allow themselves to be overrun.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Hamas’s forever war against Israel has a glitch, and it isn’t Iron Dome | The Times of Israel

From the article:


I'm of the opinion that when the Israelis say "Never again", they really mean it. They will turn the middle east into a barren sheet of radioactive glass before they allow themselves to be overrun.
Thanks I haven't read that before.

Historically the Levant is tribal home to Palestinians and Jews among others. The Peel accord simply recommended that nation state lines be drawn around what was currently understood tribal boundaries. The UN Partition Plan resurrected this with some modifications. Palestinians already had adopted the Pogrom of the 'Three No's'. That brittle inflexibility to the realities of history and war is were we are at today. Yugoslavia doesn't even exist anymore. Things change and sometime it's bitter.

Palestinians are never going to achieve their goals of wiping out Israel and the other Arab Nations were never really going to give them the autonomy either. They could have had peace 40 years ago and be thriving.

Jews have been moving back since the early 1800's and purchasing land from willing Palestinian sellers while other Palestinians complained and went to the Ottoman government which declined to intervene in legitimate transactions. This 1800's population movement was driven by severe antisemitism in Europe, with a focus on Spain being especially egregious in their treatment.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
All I know is Israel has made peace with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. Heck you have have Hillary Clinton calling out the Gaza protestors here in the States for being totally ignorant of the history and Israeli good faith concessions for peace with the Palestinians. Even after the Munich Olympics Massacre Israel was willing to sit down with terrorists for peace.

Peace is important enough to Israel that after they took the Sinai from Egypt as a spoils of war, they gave it back for a peace agreement.

Flip this over to the Palestinians and the PLO: PLO attempted coups is both Jordan and Lebanon when they setup shop there.
Israel is willing to have peace with surrounding countries, but I don't think they - well, Netanyahu's government anyway - is interested in peace with the Palestinians. They'd prefer regular dustups with Hamas to a united West Bank and Gaza. They see keeping Palestinians divided and in disarray as serving Israel's best interests. The hard-right minority is the tail wagging the dog and they have no interest in concessions to the Palestinians. They even assassinated a Prime Minister (Yitzhak Rabin) to stop it.

I just don't understand how they can think this will go on into perpetuity without losing their remaining support in the west. And, keeping Palestinians in purgatory is unacceptable. I certainly don't have the answer, but the status quo is untenable.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I was under the impression that this thread was revolving around what happened over the past few months, which is a big enough can of worms. I mean, we could go back to how Hamas is the evil spawn of the Israeli government - especially so since Netanyahu came into office. We could then discuss the law of unintended consequences.
Israeli support for Hamas - Wikipedia

So many tangents...
I doubt we'll ever see or hear a clarification on it, but that link also contains "He (Netanyahu) also said that he transferred funds to avoid "humanitarian collapse" in Gaza.". Whether it's true or not, this followed "Israeli intelligence officials believe that the money had a role in the success of 2023 Hamas-led attack.".

Maybe it's a case of 'My enemy's enemy is my friend".

Minute by minute, that region goes farther down the drain.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hitler was elected once, like nearly all dictators.
But look at the condition of Germany at that time and what Hitler promised- it was what the people wanted and against an 'enemy' they hated.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Chalking a couple of thousand of years of Jewish persecution to "Muslims fighting for revenge" is ignoring most of history, including fairly recent one like the Holocaust or Russian Pogroms. Then there are the bloody Christians under the malign influence of the Catholic Church hating Jews with more than just a passion, historically speaking.

A tragedy is that the Palestinians where expelled/driven out from Israel in 1948, but in the same time period the same happened to millions of people in Europe. The difference is that in Europe the refugees where integrated, given citizenships and otherwise full rights, and there were not any wide-spread demand to return to their old lands. This in contrast to Arab countries that generally denied Palestinian refugees citizenship or later rescinded it. This left the Palestinian refugees without access to many essential things like health care, education, property and so forth. At the same time the Arab states demanded that the Palestinians should be able to return to their land. And the rest is history.

The Arab states have greatly contributed to and encouraged the awful conflict between the Israeli and Palestinians, and they still do. They should be held accountable as well.
The stupid thing is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, with far too much in common to claim that they aren't but just like siblings, they can disagree ALL THE EFFING TIME.

You're right- Muslims didn't always fight for revenge- at first, they were the aggressors with "Join, or die" with some being allowed to live, but suffering heavy taxation. They deny details in the other two because they say their interpretations are incorrect, even though Muhammad wasn't born until more than 500 years after Christ and a couple of hundred years after the New Testament.

How many need to die in the name of religion?

Christianity teaches that Jesus was 'King of the Jews'. A bit ironic, I think, that they found so many reasons to hate Jews as much as they have. I was raised Catholic but haven't practiced in more than 50 years- I can't align myself with the BS they caused/created and perpetuate. Shiites and Sunni Muslims fight to the death, Jews, Muslims and Christians do the same and many are actually related, but hatred is stronger than blood.
 
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