Danon X4700H, Arcam sa30 and 2 Subwoofers.

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yes, and no. There are too many things in electronics may affect sound, besides the room and speakers, which are the most essential to the sound …

I truly believe that different amps give you different sounds. I experienced it in my years when I played in different bands using different amps for our microphones and guitars. I've had 4 different amps in my home stereo system: Onkyo, and 2 different Denons and now I'm test driving the Arcome, they all have their personal sound signature. Even though the difference is not that critical, but there is a difference that I can hear, and it persuade me to the sound improvement.
Do not confuse music production gear with audio playback gear. They are intentionally quite different.

Music production gear (microphones, guitar amps, guitars, other musical instruments, even strings & different woods in guitar bodies) are intended to produce different sound qualities. It's part of the process of making music. Musicians get to choose the sound they want to achieve. No one denies that.

Musical playback electronic gear should only provide neutral (uncolored) audio reproduction and nothing else. Loud speakers are the major exception to this. Their sound qualities do vary widely.

It is a false myth that electronic audio playback gear all have different sound qualities. This includes pre-amps, integrated 2-channel amps, AVRs, external power amps, DACs, etc. I am not saying that all playback gear sounds the same. However, I am saying that all audio playback gear tend to sound the same if they are well designed, operate well below clipping, have high enough damping factor across the audio band, and don't misbehave with unusual speaker loads. This should be true for solid state or vacuum tube amps, but often tube amps don't meet those criteria. Some very expensive solid state amps also do not meet these criteria – sometimes as a result of misguided design decisions intended to "improve" the sound.

Don't even mention audio cables & wires! I'm glad you haven't.
Different phono preamplifiers can dramatically affect a turntable sound, they are electronics. I prefer Arcam phono preamp to Denon, and if you use some cheap Chinese preamp, it will not give you a good sound at all. Plus, the Arcam SA30 has a dissent MC phono preamp built in, and Denon only has MM.
Different phono pick ups can be a different matter. Which pick up, including MM or MC types, sound good depends highly on what turntable and what tone arm you have. It's a matter of matching the compliance of the tone arm to the compliance range suitable for the pick up.

I invite @TLS Guy to weigh in on this subject. I trust he will have plenty to say.

However, the phono preamps themselves should not matter, as long as you use a MM preamp for a MM pick up and a MC preamp for a MC pickup. MC pickups require more boost than MM pickups. The electronic designs for them all date back to the 1950s. Avoid cheaply made Chinese junk as you cannot be sure they actually comply with those RIAA standards.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
It has been often debated what aspects in home audio benefit from spending extra money. If you listed the Top Ten Things that perform audibly better when you spend more, the first 8 on that list would be speakers. After that, in 9th or 10th place, would be greater amplifier power.

Pre-amps or DACs don't even make it onto that list. Please note that AC power, speaker, or interconnect cables are also never mentioned.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
It has been often debated what aspects in home audio benefit from spending extra money. If you listed the Top Ten Things that perform audibly better when you spend more, the first 8 on that list would be speakers. After that, in 9th or 10th place, would be greater amplifier power.

Pre-amps or DACs don't even make it onto that list. Please note that AC power, speaker, or interconnect cables are also never mentioned.
Yes! That is very true. I am working on finding an amplifier powerful enough, to drive my Focals. As of now, it seams like the Arcam SA30 drives them easier than Denon, eventhough their specs are somewhat similar. All other components, should not make a difference if they are built well. The only think is: some of them sound good right out of the box and some you have to tune them for a long time and never get them to sound the way you like. Many people said to me that the Denon 4700 is way underpowered for my speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes! That is very true. I am working on finding an amplifier powerful enough, to drive my Focals. As of now, it seams like the Arcam SA30 drives them easier than Denon, eventhough their specs are somewhat similar. All other components, should not make a difference if they are built well. The only think is: some of them sound good right out of the box and some you have to tune them for a long time and never get them to sound the way you like. Many people said to me that the Denon 4700 is way underpowered for my speakers.
Who are your sources of information you keep referring to?
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
Who are your sources of information you keep referring to?
Unfortunately, nobody reliable. Mostly sales people from different stores like ABT Electronics in Illinois, these guys are the most knolageble, Best Buy and Crutchfield. The most useful info I got is from this forum.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Perhaps, you're right, I try to send a point across, we have different hearing ability. What some people can hear, others don't even know those sounds exist. Good example will be how oriental people "now descrimination" don't have sound "Ch" they hear it as "ck" they say "switch" as "swick" I worked with Vietnamese and Chinese people and this is how they speak, because this is how they hear American people speak. In their language the dont have that sound, and this is why they dont hear it, and dont prononce it right. If I say I hear the difference and other people don't hear it, it doesn't mean there is no difference, all it means is that that person doesn't hear it. The most reviling musical piece I use in my tests is "Romeo and Juliet," Dance of Knites" played by London Symphony Orkestra, conducted by Gergiev. In the beginning a snare drum is playing right into my face in the middle of the stage. It shows a good amp. a snare drum is muffled and barely heard, it means the system is not so good. This particular part of the ballet also has a big frequency range, good bass.
As I said before, we could not, in fact, never convince people who trust heir ears to the point they would not try to do truly apples to apples blind comparison listening tests to prove their own points. It is a well know fact that in double blind, often even single blind, controlled (such as very tight level controlled, and no dsp, just pure analog or digital with no processing of any sort) that such claimed audible different sound signatures would disappear; and we are not talking about all amps sound the same, they don't, and won't. We are talking about amps that are very well designed, and bench tested to deliver the same performance level that would result in transparency to human beings (not going to repeat what I said about those before). Such transparent amps do include, by the way, Chinese made amps, even some cheap ones such as the $90 Fosi V3 class D chip amps, but you are right, I am not aware of any "cheap" Chinese preamps that I would consider "transparent", unless you consider the $600-$850 Topping analog preamp cheap. In that case you would be wrong, because that preamp so far has bench tests head and shoulder over many much more expensive preamps currently available. Note: Chinese made amps are design made/assembled in China or nearby countries as a whole unit, but would include ICs, and many electronic components from all over the world, designed by people also from all over the world, it is very much a globalize thing nowadays. So it is hard to generalize, and "cheap" is a relative term. Don't get me wrong, I think I know what you mean, but would still caution that people seem to get influenced/biased by/based on price a lot, again, not saying you are, but many are, no doubt, I admit I get influenced too, may be just to different extent.

Topping Pre90 Review (preamplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The reviewer concluded that:

It is an instrument grade, more transparent than transparent, preamplifier. Other than Benchmark HPA4, I don't think it has an equal no matter how much money you spend. In that regard, it is quite a value as well although obviously not "cheap" as compared to desktop products.
Price, aesthetic, even color, and much more are factors that could influence one's perception of sound quality, that's again facts, but no, if they won't/don't do controlled comparison listening tests, they would just continue to believe their different amps have their own sound signature, and that would be factual in many cases, just that the differences may not be due to the hardware design/build, but more often the circumstantial factors. it's all science, just different kind of science, psychoacoustic science, or pure human psychology are also science, aside from physics, and electrical engineering.

If I say I hear the difference and other people don't hear it, it doesn't mean there is no difference, all it means is that that person doesn't hear it. The most reviling musical piece I use in my tests is "Romeo and Juliet," Dance of Knites" played by London Symphony Orkestra, conducted by Gergiev. In the beginning a snare drum is playing right into my face in the middle of the stage. It shows a good amp. a snare drum is muffled and barely heard, it means the system is not so good. This particular part of the ballet also has a big frequency range, good bass.
Interesting, I went to many live classical concerts, and one thing I always noticed is that very often you can see many mics everywhere on stage, so I have to wonder, "live" for those in the hall is one thing, but how about the recordings, wouldn't those live recorded music have their own sound signature, inherited during the recording and mastering process? If so, and seemingly so, then I can't imagine how people (yes that included you:) obviously, could have been influenced by the electronics not under their control? And, in that case, even if there are (and I would agree there are) things not measured in any bench tests, any resulting differences due to the electronics of yours (albums, digital files, streamed, CDs, DACs, preamps, power amps, power supplies) would have been all mixed in and therefore the final results you hear will not be predictable, and those who focus on choosing a preamp, or a power amp "by ears" would naturally end up getting the "sound signature" they preferred by random, chances!! If I have infinite time and money to go about such a route/process, it might be fun, but practically speaking, no thanks, I would just choose based on specs and measurements, and then convince myself, at least psychologically speaking, that I have made the right choice for the best "sound signature" that I could afford. I doubt there is any right or wrong in our approach, so the law of ymmv wins in the end.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I used to own the Focal Aria 826v and powered them with only the Denon AVR-3000 series without any external amps. No problems at all. Unless I was singing Karaoke and didn’t use fans atop that Denon AVR - got really hot. Then it would shut down. But with fans atop the AVR, no problems at all.

We also know that a Denon AVR-3000 series was tested to be stable down to 1-ohm (albeit short duration).

So put 2 + 2 together, it’s like @PENG says - it depends. We can’t just look at a few numbers like minimum impedance. :D

But if you absolutely must have an external amp, ATI has always been solid. Even ATI’s 60 watts per channel home distribution amp was tested by The Audio Critic using The PowerCube to be stable down to 1-ohms.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I used to own the Focal Aria 826v and powered them with only the Denon AVR-3000 series without any external amps. No problems at all. Unless I was singing Karaoke and didn’t use fans atop that Denon AVR - got really hot. Then it would shut down. But with fans atop the AVR, no problems at all.

We also know that a Denon AVR-3000 series was tested to be stable down to 1-ohm (albeit short duration).

So put 2 + 2 together, it’s like @PENG says - it depends. We can’t just look at a few numbers like minimum impedance. :D

But if you absolutely must have an external amp, ATI has always been solid. Even ATI’s 60 watts per channel home distribution amp was tested by The Audio Critic using The PowerCube to be stable down to 1-ohms.
At the end of the day though it is an incompetently designed speakers that does not deserve house room.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Unfortunately, nobody reliable. Mostly sales people from different stores like ABT Electronics in Illinois, these guys are the most knolageble, Best Buy and Crutchfield. The most useful info I got is from this forum.
I don't find sales people to be very knowledgeable generally, or just rather pushing what they need to sell. This group is a good one for avoiding a lot of the silly audiophile stuff. Audiosciencereview.com is another.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
As I said before, we could not, in fact, never convince people who trust heir ears to the point they would not try to do truly apples to apples blind comparison listening tests to prove their own points. It is a well know fact that in double blind, often even single blind, controlled (such as very tight level controlled, and no dsp, just pure analog or digital with no processing of any sort) that such claimed audible different sound signatures would disappear; and we are not talking about all amps sound the same, they don't, and won't. We are talking about amps that are very well designed, and bench tested to deliver the same performance level that would result in transparency to human beings (not going to repeat what I said about those before). Such transparent amps do include, by the way, Chinese made amps, even some cheap ones such as the $90 Fosi V3 class D chip amps, but you are right, I am not aware of any "cheap" Chinese preamps that I would consider "transparent", unless you consider the $600-$850 Topping analog preamp cheap. In that case you would be wrong, because that preamp so far has bench tests head and shoulder over many much more expensive preamps currently available. Note: Chinese made amps are design made/assembled in China or nearby countries as a whole unit, but would include ICs, and many electronic components from all over the world, designed by people also from all over the world, it is very much a globalize thing nowadays. So it is hard to generalize, and "cheap" is a relative term. Don't get me wrong, I think I know what you mean, but would still caution that people seem to get influenced/biased by/based on price a lot, again, not saying you are, but many are, no doubt, I admit I get influenced too, may be just to different extent.

Topping Pre90 Review (preamplifier) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

The reviewer concluded that:



Price, aesthetic, even color, and much more are factors that could influence one's perception of sound quality, that's again facts, but no, if they won't/don't do controlled comparison listening tests, they would just continue to believe their different amps have their own sound signature, and that would be factual in many cases, just that the differences may not be due to the hardware design/build, but more often the circumstantial factors. it's all science, just different kind of science, psychoacoustic science, or pure human psychology are also science, aside from physics, and electrical engineering.



Interesting, I went to many live classical concerts, and one thing I always noticed is that very often you can see many mics everywhere on stage, so I have to wonder, "live" for those in the hall is one thing, but how about the recordings, wouldn't those live recorded music have their own sound signature, inherited during the recording and mastering process? If so, and seemingly so, then I can't imagine how people (yes that included you:) obviously, could have been influenced by the electronics not under their control? And, in that case, even if there are (and I would agree there are) things not measured in any bench tests, any resulting differences due to the electronics of yours (albums, digital files, streamed, CDs, DACs, preamps, power amps, power supplies) would have been all mixed in and therefore the final results you hear will not be predictable, and those who focus on choosing a preamp, or a power amp "by ears" would naturally end up getting the "sound signature" they preferred by random, chances!! If I have infinite time and money to go about such a route/process, it might be fun, but practically speaking, no thanks, I would just choose based on specs and measurements, and then convince myself, at least psychologically speaking, that I have made the right choice for the best "sound signature" that I could afford. I doubt there is any right or wrong in our approach, so the law of ymmv wins in the end.
PENG, peppering the place with a bunch of mics recording a classical concert is engineering malpractice pure and simple. The less the better. This is now especially true in the age of upmixers. These can't, and won't work if you do that.

We have been through a phase recently of "jobber" recording engineers, rather than those with stable employment at a label.

Unfortunately this practice became prevalent at the dawn of the digital age. I think this is in large part responsible for the vinyl is better than digital notion. I have been playing quite a lot of my older vinyl lately and they are better than a lot, if not most of my CD recordings, after the labels let go of their tenured engineers.

This trend is now reversing, as symphony orchestras and opera companies build a staffs of engineers and not using "jobbers". One example is Matthew Pons of the DSO at Orchestra Hall, Detroit. He uses the Decca Tree to stunning effect and just gently spots a soloist with a distant mic compared to others.

The sound is fantastic and you get a realistic orchestral perspective, and the ring of their wonderful hall imposed on your room.

The BBC have been doing an excellent job, as they always have. This year at the Proms they seem to be really excelling themselves with a phenomenal left right, depth perspective, and the ring of the hall including the dome above in the RAH. The realism is uncanny via the Dolby upmixer.

The BPO of course have a very stable crew, and are really getting the hang of Atmos over time. They have been steadily reducing their mic count to good effect, I note

When I was doing my radio broadcast for KFJM Grand Forks ND, I always used a minimalist mic technique.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
I used to own the Focal Aria 826v and powered them with only the Denon AVR-3000 series without any external amps. No problems at all. Unless I was singing Karaoke and didn’t use fans atop that Denon AVR - got really hot. Then it would shut down. But with fans atop the AVR, no problems at all.

We also know that a Denon AVR-3000 series was tested to be stable down to 1-ohm (albeit short duration).

So put 2 + 2 together, it’s like @PENG says - it depends. We can’t just look at a few numbers like minimum impedance. :D

But if you absolutely must have an external amp, ATI has always been solid. Even ATI’s 60 watts per channel home distribution amp was tested by The Audio Critic using The PowerCube to be stable down to 1-ohms.
Focal 826 is Chora, not Aria. They are smaller speakers and easily driven by amps that are less than 100 w. A friend of my has this set, he uses Rotel A14. They sound great in his room.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
PENG, peppering the place with a bunch of mics recording a classical concert is engineering malpractice pure and simple. The less the better. This is now especially true in the age of upmixers. These can't, and won't work if you do that.

We have been through a phase recently of "jobber" recording engineers, rather than those with stable employment at a label.

Unfortunately this practice became prevalent at the dawn of the digital age. I think this is in large part responsible for the vinyl is better than digital notion. I have been playing quite a lot of my older vinyl lately and they are better than a lot, if not most of my CD recordings, after the labels let go of their tenured engineers.

This trend is now reversing, as symphony orchestras and opera companies build a staffs of engineers and not using "jobbers". One example is Matthew Pons of the DSO at Orchestra Hall, Detroit. He uses the Decca Tree to stunning effect and just gently spots a soloist with a distant mic compared to others.

The sound is fantastic and you get a realistic orchestral perspective, and the ring of their wonderful hall imposed on your room.

The BBC have been doing an excellent job, as they always have. This year at the Proms they seem to be really excelling themselves with a phenomenal left right, depth perspective, and the ring of the hall including the dome above in the RAH. The realism is uncanny via the Dolby upmixer.

The BPO of course have a very stable crew, and are really getting the hang of Atmos over time. They have been steadily reducing their mic count to good effect, I note

When I was doing my radio broadcast for KFJM Grand Forks ND, I always used a minimalist mic technique.
This is a very interesting and virtually endless subject. I hear a different dynamic range in music listening different amplifiers/integrated and AVRs. What was said about electronics earlier is very subjective. All the electronics supposed to reproduce recordings without any distortions. This is the goal of all serious companies making audio electronics, but unfortunately they are still different. About cheap electronics, I don't even look there, don't want to waste my time and money. Cheap, meaning cheaply made, not inexpensive. I mantioned "Cheap Chinese stuff" Arcam is made in China, but still a very good product and it is not cheap. Denon is made in Malaysia, and I wouldn't consider it cheap.

Regarding recording of classical music in concert halls, I realize this is very hard to replicate the life performance, there is a reason for so many microphones being used during the recording season or life concert. I have several same musical piece performed by different orchestras and recorded by different studios, and they sound very different. When I listen them through different amps in Direct mode, they sound different. Some of them sound the same. I auditioned Denon and Marantz, they sounded identical, eventhough Marantz was almost twice more expensive.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
This is a very interesting and virtually endless subject. I hear a different dynamic range in music listening different amplifiers/integrated and AVRs. What was said about electronics earlier is very subjective. All the electronics supposed to reproduce recordings without any distortions. This is the goal of all serious companies making audio electronics, but unfortunately they are still different. About cheap electronics, I don't even look there, don't want to waste my time and money. Cheap, meaning cheaply made, not inexpensive. I mantioned "Cheap Chinese stuff" Arcam is made in China, but still a very good product and it is not cheap. Denon is made in Malaysia, and I wouldn't consider it cheap.

Regarding recording of classical music in concert halls, I realize this is very hard to replicate the life performance, there is a reason for so many microphones being used during the recording season or life concert. I have several same musical piece performed by different orchestras and recorded by different studios, and they sound very different. When I listen them through different amps in Direct mode, they sound different. Some of them sound the same. I auditioned Denon and Marantz, they sounded identical, eventhough Marantz was almost twice more expensive.
Hard to imagine the amp (a suitable one to purpose) limiting your dynamic range vs your speakers, but how do you define it? Especially in so much of the electronics.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
Hard to imagine the amp (a suitable one to purpose) limiting your dynamic range vs your speakers, but how do you define it? Especially in so much of the electronics.
I use the setup I like the most listening musical pieces I know very well. On "reference" volume (0db] they sound very close to each other, almost the same. You start hearing a dynamic range deficiency on quieter volume. The amplifier gives you fuller musical stage and dynamic range on lower volume, that is the one I'll keep. If non of them do the trick, they all go back and I'll continue using Denon 4700 as I used to, and start saving money for new set of speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Focal 826 is Chora, not Aria. They are smaller speakers and easily driven by amps that are less than 100 w. A friend of my has this set, he uses Rotel A14. They sound great in his room.
Ah Chorus 826 - min impedance of 2.9 ohms, so not much better than 2.8 ohms.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Ah Chorus 826 - min impedance of 2.9 ohms, so not much better than 2.8 ohms.
In that sense, the difference is obviously negligible, but that's why it is mostly irrelevant when people brags about how low the impedance of their so called hard to drive speaker would dip, without showing the impedance and phase angle versus frequency graph.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
Ah Chorus 826 - min impedance of 2.9 ohms, so not much better than 2.8 ohms.
That is what my friend has. They sound fantastic with Rotel A14 integrated, and SVS 8" subwoofer.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Focal 826 is Chora, not Aria. They are smaller speakers and easily driven by amps that are less than 100 w. A friend of my has this set, he uses Rotel A14. They sound great in his room.
You realize that smaller speakers are often harder to drive, rather than the other way around? They tend to be less sensitive, Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
You realize that smaller speakers are often harder to drive, rather than the other way around? They tend to be less sensitive, Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building.
I don't know any better. In my case, I want to save what I already have for now, my Denon, as far as I understand, can be used as an excellent preamp, and it may successfully drive center channel with now issues. When we watch movies we don't turn volume too much, max is -30. For music, I get a stronger amplifier, which will drive my focals with less strain, and I will not burn my Denon any more and get better sound quality in any given volume.
 
G

Genchic

Audioholic
I think it was a very interesting and aducational conversation. I made a decision on my audio gear as of now. I feel like sharing it with all, as many of good quality sounding music lovers may get something out of it. I know replacing speakers would be an optimum move, but $5K was invested and there is no way I could get even 50% of it back. So, it is out of questions. Next step, common sense says, get an amplifier and use Denon in a preamp mode. New amplifier I was contemplating is $3k+. Outside of my budget by about a grand. The 3d option, which was the list favorable by most of Audioholics, get an integrated amp, in my case Arcam SA30 and use it for Turntable and front speakers, and use Denon X4700H as a receiver for video sources like BD and Amazon stick, and driving a center channel. Because I already have the SA30 on hands, I gave it an extensive test with my system. My turntables, I have 2, sound much better using phonopreamp in Arcam vs Denon. Musical stage, depth and dynamic range is better when I play music through Arcam vs Denon. Blu-ray sounds better, when I use Denon as preamp for it connected with HDMI cable. I connected subwoofers to both, Arcam and Denon. My subs are Dual Voice Coil. I adjusted them with Audyssey. I used Audyssey to setup front, center left speakers too. I can see, how complicated and maybe even stupid it seems, but it delivers the sound I'm satisfied with. My speakers go down to 2.9 ohms in certain frequencies the SA30 was tested all the way to 1 ohm, and it performed flawlessly. Denon burned out in a little over a year playing my Focals. To keep it and using it as a preamp, in my opinion, is a wise move. Some of you don't like when I provide analogy with cars, however, if you look at sport's cars, they don't have a soft suspension, comfortable seats, they dont have climat control, they are loud, but they deliver exactly what the driver needs. So is my system, it is may be uncomfortable, doesn't make sense, but it delivers what I need. Hope it was interesting and helpful.
Thank you all for your suggestions and participation in this conversation.
Enjoy music in good quality.
 
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