Danon X4700H, Arcam sa30 and 2 Subwoofers.

[TLS Guy]

No ARC? Wow, old TV. Many place their Front and Center Channel speakers together very closely so good on you for spreading them out. You could also send a PCM 2.0 signal to the ARCAM via optical cable from the TV. If there is no optical port on the TV either, we need to talk about getting you a new TV.

It is not only helpful, but essential to include in posts any and all information concerning each device in the system. These two particular units were not designed to be used together as some have mentioned. While it has no bypass mode, the ARCAM has a Processor mode for fixed output of a selected analog input source but the PHONO input cannot be assigned it.

Perhaps try taking the ARCAM out of the loop for an experiment. The Denon X4700H includes the 2ch Playback feature and can use different speaker and subwoofer settings for two channel signals vs multichannel signals when in Direct or Stereo mode. For PHONO and CD, you could set Front Speakers to Large and Subwoofer to LFE + Main. The speakers are essentially run as Large using the ARCAM but it cannot adjust low frequency output from the Pre Out. The Denon can adjust the low frequencies copied to the Subwoofer even in Direct mode so that it does not have to be done by hand at the subs.

You can continue to use Small speaker settings and room correction for Dolby and DTS multichannel signals from other devices. You may find things improved all around after tweaking the 2ch Playback settings. Have fun with it!

The problem is that you guys keep considering impedance in isolation. That is false equivalent. You have to consider the phase angles. Those steep negative phase angles at the low impedance points increase current demand and stress on the output devices enormously.

If we are going to continue with designs with low crossover points, then active speakers are going to have to be the norm. Reliability is not considered a nearly big enough priority in our recommendations.

As I said I would never design a speaker like those Arias, never. I certainly consider marketing them irresponsible. Focal don't make amps of course, so let the amp and receiver maker take this hit. 8 Ohm spec is a disgrace and totally dishonest.

I put long term reliability a top priority in my designs and that means the total design and how they are designed set up and organized. I hate faults and especially expensive ones.

A lot of the failures reported on here I'm certain could have been prevented.

So I won't give Focal a pass. Those speakers are a disgrace, unfit for purpose and marketed unethically.
I had better mentors, thank goodness.

 

[Genchic]

@TLS Guy & @PENG already said it well. Focal Aria 926 speakers do need an external amp to drive them because of their low impedance values.

Like TLS Guy & PENG, I couldn't find an impedance curve for the Focal Aria 926. But I'd like to add two independent and reliable review measurements for the similar but larger Focal Aria 936. One is from SoundStage! and the other is from Stereophile. They look similar to me, and they resemble the impedance curves the others posted above. Focal may make somewhat hard-to-drive speakers, but so do many other companies. At least the various Focal models share a consistent overall design.

Here's the impedance curve of the Focal Aria 936 from Stereophile. It shows frequency vs. ohms (solid black line) as well as the impedance phase curve of impedance phase, frequency vs. phase in degrees (dotted black line).
View attachment 69149
John Atkinson of Stereophile said this:

I' suggest a relatively inexpensive Class D 2-channel amp from Buckeye Amps. Either one of these:

Hypex NC502MP 2-Channel
Higher power at $695:

• 450 watts @ 2 ohm
• 500 watts @ 4 ohm
• 350 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Hypex NC252MP 2-Channel
Somewhat less power, but adequate for your speakers, at $575:

• 180 watts @ 2 ohm
• 250 watts @ 4 ohm
• 150 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Ignore any negative comments you may have seen online about the "poor sound quality" of Class D amps. That may have been true 30 or more years ago, but for the last 20-25 years, Class D amps have become state-of-the-art for audio amps. They are more powerful, measure better than any older Class A-B designs, are smaller in size, and cost less. Once the Hypex and Purifi Class D amps became mature products, new designs of older types of amps came to a halt.

I looked at the amps. Will it be wise to get a 3 channel amp to drive my center channel too?

 

[Genchic]

No wonder the Denon is having trouble. Those Aria speakers are incompetently designed. They claim an impedance of 8 ohm and their spec states the minimum impedance is 2.8 ohms

According to audio review the impedance curve of the 826 is very similar to the 836 and both have similarly low impedance minima.

This is the impedance curve of the 836.

That is a very low impedance across a good deal of the power band and at 80 Hz associated with a very negative phase angle. There are also resonances evident, especially at 80 Hz.

Those speakers will stress any amp and are likely to result in premature failure.

I think a big part the reason is the very low crossover to the mid at 290 Hz.

I can tell you right away, I would never pass a design like that. For me that would be a no build. No doubt about it. So I am not surprised you don't like the sound of the Denon driving those speakers.

So you are going to need an amp of 150 watts with a 2 Ohm rating.

You should consider a speaker change though perhaps rather than an amp. I would not have a speaker like that in my house for five minutes. However luckily I don't buy my speakers, but design and build them. That speaker is not one that I am in the habit of designing.

Speaker manufacturers do tend to lie though their teeth about the impedance of their speakers, and frequently rate them 8 ohm when they are nothing of the sort. In fact the minimum impedance is pretty close to the true impedance. A rule of thumb is minimum impedance plus 10%. So that makes your speaker a 2.9 ohm speaker and not 8.

Thank you for pointing out the fact "I'm not crazy " not liking the sound of my system.

 

[Swerd]

I looked at the amps. Will it be wise to get a 3 channel amp to drive my center channel too?

I can't say much about wise or unwise. That's a personal judgement call. It depends on how much money you want to spend. And it depends on your personal philosophy. Are you a "best that money can buy" guy, or a "good enough" guy? Some anxious audiophiles believe they must have a 3-channel amp … and they end up buying a 5- or 7-channel amp.

I drive my front left & right speakers with a 2-channel stand alone power amp. It was built in the 1990s and I bought it used in 2006. It delivers 200 wpc when driving 8 ohms. If I remember, it cost about $1 per Watt. I don't intend to replace it unless it dies. If and when that happens, I'll first look into one of those Class D amps I mentioned. I've heard them driving some excellent speakers that I don't own. I thought they left nothing to be desired.

I use my Denon AVR (rated at 125 wpc at 8 ohms) to drive my center & rear channel speakers. For me and my speakers, that's plenty good enough. I admit that I'm much pickier about speakers than I am about the electronic gear that drives them. Speakers are where you can get better sound by spending more. I haven't heard your Focals, but Focal has a good reputation in general, and their speakers perform well when measured. In my opinion, all you need are amps that supply enough power to drive your speakers such that the amp never goes into clipping.

With amps, receivers, and other electronic gear, look for "good enough" instead of audio nirvana.

 

[Trebdp83]

I’m not giving the speakers a pass and stopped short of telling somebody who happens to own and like them to replace them. I’m also not recommending adding amps unless the speakers can be played at high levels with full band signals while upsetting the neighbors and the Bric-a-brac.

Frankly, this business of producing speakers that require an upgrade from an already very capable AVR is bulls#%t. There were no complaints here concerning the connection to the ARCAM and I’m going to recommend tinkering with the Denon’s settings still.

Keep in mind that any suggestions from anybody on this forum are made without ever seeing or hearing the system or checking its settings. Some folks change out units from one to another and think that somehow something is wrong with the unit that they like less than the other without consideration of the different design and settings between them. Some are quick to label all as s#%t and recommend all new gear.

If the choice is to add an external amp, get it on the cheap so that you can also get a new TV.

 

[isolar8001]

Keep in mind that any suggestions from anybody on this forum are made without ever seeing or hearing the system or checking its settings. Some folks change out units from one to another and think that somehow something is wrong with the unit that they like less than the other without consideration of the different design and settings between them. Some are quick to label all as s#%t and recommend all new gear.

That's the gospel truth.

Many times I went to customers homes and usually within 15 minutes solved all of their concerns that could be solved. (could not build them a new room if that was the issue)
Never assume that someone who owns audio equipment knows how to actually use it...
Giving advice on these threads is like shooting in the dark.

 

[Swerd]

Never assume that someone who owns audio equipment knows how to actually use it...

Giving advice on these threads is like shooting in the dark.

And never assume that someone can describe in words the audio problem he may really have. That can take a lot of yakking back & forth before useful info becomes apparent.

Talking about audio sound in words, online is difficult. It’s like dancing about architecture .

 

[lovinthehd]

The speakers are 12 feet apart with the center channel in between. Not that small.

Left and right speakers are 12 feet apart with center channel in between. My TV does not have ARC/eARC. I also suspect my Denon may have a defect in the amplifier circuits. It was repaired when it was still under warranty. I will do a complete reset to it and rerun Audyssey, may be it'll help. It sounds good as a preamp through the Arcam running front 2 channels. 2 subs are connected to the preouts in Arcam and work great with vinyl and CDs that connected directly to Arcam. I only run Amazon stick and blu-ray through the Denon preamp. And center channel in this case is ran by the denon as well. Only thing I'm missing when watching Amazo /Blu-ray is the LFC from Denon.

The Arcam has bass management or you just like the bass doubled up somewhat? You might try the LFE+Main setting in the avr, it can do that too.

ps I didn't read beyond that post of yours until I after I replied, fwiw.

 

[Genchic]

Ok, the older DLP with LED backlight. Tweak the Denon to your liking and any more money spent should be on a new 4K TV.

My TV satisfys my needs. I am no longer as big on movies as I used to be. I do watch live concerts though. That is why I downgraded my surround to only LCR.2 More Vinyl...! LoL

 

[Genchic]

And never assume that someone can describe in words the audio problem he may really have. That can take a lot of yakking back & forth before useful info becomes apparent.

Talking about audio sound in words, online is difficult. It’s like dancing about architecture .

You are right. I am filtering everything as much as I can. At the same time, I appreciate the help everybody try to provide.

 

[Genchic]

@TLS Guy & @PENG already said it well. Focal Aria 926 speakers do need an external amp to drive them because of their impedance characteristics … low impedance values, the audio frequency range where these low impedances appear, and large shifts in impedance phase angles over that same audio range.

Like TLS Guy & PENG, I couldn't find an impedance curve for the Focal Aria 926. But I'd like to add two independent and reliable review measurements for the similar but larger Focal Aria 936. One is from SoundStage! and the other is from Stereophile. They look similar to me, and they resemble the impedance curves the others posted above. Focal may make somewhat hard-to-drive speakers, but so do many other companies. At least the various Focal models share a consistent overall design.

Here's the impedance curve of the Focal Aria 936 from Stereophile. It shows frequency vs. ohms (solid black line) as well as the impedance phase curve of impedance phase, frequency vs. phase in degrees (dotted black line).
View attachment 69149
John Atkinson of Stereophile said this:

I suggest a relatively inexpensive Class D 2-channel amp from Buckeye Amps. Either one of these:

Hypex NC502MP 2-Channel
Higher power at $695:

• 450 watts @ 2 ohm
• 500 watts @ 4 ohm
• 350 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Hypex NC252MP 2-Channel
Somewhat less power, but adequate for your speakers, at $575:

• 180 watts @ 2 ohm
• 250 watts @ 4 ohm
• 150 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Ignore any negative comments you may have seen online about the "poor sound quality" of Class D amps. That may have been true 30 or more years ago, but for the last 20-25 years, Class D amps have become state-of-the-art for audio amps. They are more powerful, measure better than any older Class A-B designs, are smaller in size, and cost less. Once the Hypex and Purifi Class D amps became mature products, new designs of older types of amps came to a halt.

I played with some Denon settings got my sound close to the Arcam, the Denon got HOT... I could fry eggs on it. That is probably why it burned out earlier. I am getting an exrurnal amp.

 

[Trebdp83]

Sure it got hot, it’s a Denon. Now, return the ARCAM and pick out a nice amp before you burn down your condo.

 

[Genchic]

I can't say much about wise or unwise. That's a personal judgement call. It depends on how much money you want to spend. And it depends on your personal philosophy. Are you a "best that money can buy" guy, or a "good enough" guy? Some anxious audiophiles believe they must have a 3-channel amp … and they end up buying a 5- or 7-channel amp.

I drive my front left & right speakers with a 2-channel stand alone power amp. It was built in the 1990s and I bought it used in 2006. It delivers 200 wpc when driving 8 ohms. If I remember, it cost about $1 per Watt. I don't intend to replace it unless it dies. If and when that happens, I'll first look into one of those Class D amps I mentioned. I've heard them driving some excellent speakers that I don't own. I thought they left nothing to be desired.

I use my Denon AVR (rated at 125 wpc at 8 ohms) to drive my center & rear channel speakers. For me and my speakers, that's plenty good enough. I admit that I'm much pickier about speakers than I am about the electronic gear that drives them. Speakers are where you can get better sound by spending more. I haven't heard your Focals, but Focal has a good reputation in general, and their speakers perform well when measured. In my opinion, all you need are amps that supply enough power to drive your speakers such that the amp never goes into clipping.

With amps, receivers, and other electronic gear, look for "good enough" instead of audio nirvana.

Thank you! Could not be said any better. I really appreciate your help.

 

[Genchic]

Sure it got hot, it’s a Denon. Now, return the ARCAM and pick out a nice amp before you burn down your condo.

That is the plan. Looking into test driving an Arcam PA240.

 

[lovinthehd]

That is the plan. Looking into test driving an Arcam PA240.

Why that amp? The specs aren't particularly impressive....

ps let alone the heat issue that can't be resolved with a fan....

 

[Genchic]

Why that amp? The specs aren't particularly impressive....

ps let alone the heat issue that can't be resolved with a fan....

Thank you for the advice, but fan is not an option. If I had a separate equipment room, then may be. I'm still working on the Denon tweaking. I will add an amp, I'll addition a few, and the Arcam PA240 is one of them. It has plenty of power for my application and RCA preouts, I can use for subwoofers, and I liked the sound of SA30, hopefully the PA 240 will give me the same sound. I checked Crutchfield website they only have 5 amps 200W + : Rotel RB-1582, Anthem MCA 225, NAD Master series M23, And Arcam PA240. They have 60 days return policy, I have enough time to test drive one.

 

[everettT]

Thank you for the advice, but fan is not an option. If I had a separate equipment room, then may be. I'm still working on the Denon tweaking. I will add an amp, I'll addition a few, and the Arcam PA240 is one of them. It has plenty of power for my application and RCA preouts, I can use for subwoofers, and I liked the sound of SA30, hopefully the PA 240 will give me the same sound. I checked Crutchfield website they only have 5 amps 200W + : Rotel RB-1582, Anthem MCA 225, NAD Master series M23, And Arcam PA240. They have 60 days return policy, I have enough time to test drive one.

The Arcam amp has a selectable gain input on the PA240, 25 or 31db. The default is 31 and what I probably use to start. If listening at lower volume you could get away with 25, which will give you the lower distortion (in theory) but to drive the amp to full power, the 31db the setting should be used.

The NAD Master has 3 levels with 29 being your best choice.

Id have to look at the Rotel and the other Anthem..

 

[Genchic]

The Arcam amp has a selectable gain input on the PA240, 25 or 31db. The default is 31 and what I probably use to start. If listening at lower volume you could get away with 25, which will give you the lower distortion (in theory) but to drive the amp to full power, the 31db the setting should be used.

The NAD Master has 3 levels with 29 being your best choice.

Id have to look at the Rotel and the other Anthem..

I'll play with it, when I get it. It'll be awhile though. Thank you.[/QUOTE]

 

[TLS Guy]

I played with some Denon settings got my sound close to the Arcam, the Denon got HOT... I could fry eggs on it. That is probably why it burned out earlier. I am getting an exrurnal amp.

Well of course you could fry eggs on it. The design of your speakers is incompetent. No doubt about it.

I have excellent stable amps, but I would NEVER subject them to loads like I have seen from Focal Aria speakers. There is absolutely no excuse for it NONE.

 

[PENG]

Thank you for the advice, but fan is not an option. If I had a separate equipment room, then may be. I'm still working on the Denon tweaking. I will add an amp, I'll addition a few, and the Arcam PA240 is one of them. It has plenty of power for my application and RCA preouts, I can use for subwoofers, and I liked the sound of SA30, hopefully the PA 240 will give me the same sound. I checked Crutchfield website they only have 5 amps 200W + : Rotel RB-1582, Anthem MCA 225, NAD Master series M23, And Arcam PA240. They have 60 days return policy, I have enough time to test drive one.

Why is a fan not an option, is it size, noise?

I used a ultra quiet fan with my AV preamp processors, as even those could get quiet warm and I suspect even if you add an external amp, you can probably benefit from a fan in terms of reliability and longevity.

Noctua NF-S12A ULN, Ultra Quiet Silent Fan, 3-Pin (120mm, Brown) : Amazon.ca: Electronics

noise level is only 8.6 dB, likely lower if you use the lowest voltage/speed.

Of the amps you listed, the NAD M23 will have the lowest distortion and noise, the other ones don't even come close, but still, all of them, even the Denon AVR already have distortions level that is considered below the threshold of audibility.

NAD M23 Stereo Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

You can save a ton of money with brands such as Apollon, buckeyeamp and their return policy may not be as good, while warranty should be fine because they are covered by the manufacturers, ie. Purifi, or Hypex.

I would not go with Rotel, Anthem (I own one) as those class AB amps are really on the way out, for reasons related to size, weight, heat, i.e. much poorer efficiency. So, my choice would be the NAD, if brand name, return policy is important, but you will pay twice as much, or more, for the same rated output and audio specs.