Danon X4700H, Arcam sa30 and 2 Subwoofers.

[Trebdp83]

No ARC? Wow, old TV. Many place their Front and Center Channel speakers together very closely so good on you for spreading them out. You could also send a PCM 2.0 signal to the ARCAM via optical cable from the TV. If there is no optical port on the TV either, we need to talk about getting you a new TV.

It is not only helpful, but essential to include in posts any and all information concerning each device in the system. These two particular units were not designed to be used together as some have mentioned. While it has no bypass mode, the ARCAM has a Processor mode for fixed output of a selected analog input source but the PHONO input cannot be assigned it.

Perhaps try taking the ARCAM out of the loop for an experiment. The Denon X4700H includes the 2ch Playback feature and can use different speaker and subwoofer settings for two channel signals vs multichannel signals when in Direct or Stereo mode. For PHONO and CD, you could set Front Speakers to Large and Subwoofer to LFE + Main. The speakers are essentially run as Large using the ARCAM but it cannot adjust low frequency output from the Pre Out. The Denon can adjust the low frequencies copied to the Subwoofer even in Direct mode so that it does not have to be done by hand at the subs.

You can continue to use Small speaker settings and room correction for Dolby and DTS multichannel signals from other devices. You may find things improved all around after tweaking the 2ch Playback settings. Have fun with it!

 

[Genchic]

If you want another amp instead of the receiver amps, then using an integrated amp is not the way to go about it. What you need is a power amp connected to the preouts of the receiver. That is the proper way to do it.

Cannot agree more. That is my next step, to get an amp and return the Arcam. How powerful the amp should be in your opinion?

 

[TLS Guy]

Cannot agree more. That is my next step, to get an amp and return the Arcam. How powerful the amp should be in your opinion?

That all depends on your speakers and how loud you like to listen.

 

[Genchic]

That all depends on your speakers and how loud you like to listen.

Speakers are Focal Aria 926, cannot listen as loud as I like due to condo restrictions. That is the reason for creation of this clustro.. you know what LOL

 

[Genchic]

No ARC? Wow, old TV. Many place their Front and Center Channel speakers together very closely so good on you for spreading them out. You could also send a PCM 2.0 signal to the ARCAM via optical cable from the TV. If there is no optical port on the TV either, we need to talk about getting you a new TV.

It is not only helpful, but essential to include in posts any and all information concerning each device in the system. These two particular units were not designed to be used together as some have mentioned. While it has no bypass mode, the ARCAM has a Processor mode for fixed output of a selected analog input source but the PHONO input cannot be assigned it.

Perhaps try taking the ARCAM out of the loop for an experiment. The Denon X4700H includes the 2ch Playback feature and can use different speaker and subwoofer settings for two channel signals vs multichannel signals when in Direct or Stereo mode. For PHONO and CD, you could set Front Speakers to Large and Subwoofer to LFE + Main. The speakers are essentially run as Large using the ARCAM but it cannot adjust low frequency output from the Pre Out. The Denon can adjust the low frequencies copied to the Subwoofer even in Direct mode so that it does not have to be done by hand at the subs.

You can continue to use Small speaker settings and room correction for Dolby and DTS multichannel signals from other devices. You may find things improved all around after tweaking the 2ch Playback settings. Have fun with it!

I started with Denon a long time ago. One I had befor the 4700, don't remember the model, burned in a storage fire. The 4700 was defective front the start, and it broke in about 1.5 years of use. I repaired it under warranty, and still don't like how it sounds in low volume. It could be me not setting it up correctly, or it is still has issues.

 

[Trebdp83]

So, try setting up 2ch Playback settings for PHONO and CD as I mentioned and see if things are any better that way. In DIRECT mode, room correction, any manual EQ settings and tone control settings are disabled. If it still doesn’t sound good to you, switch to STEREO mode and play with tones. I cannot believe you cannot somehow tweak it to your liking.

 

[Genchic]

So, try setting up 2ch Playback settings for PHONO and CD as I mentioned and see if things are any better that way. In DIRECT mode, room correction, any manual EQ settings and tone control settings are disabled. If it still doesn’t sound good to you, switch to STEREO mode and play with tones. I cannot believe you cannot somehow tweak it to your liking.

I'll give it a try. Thank you!

 

[TLS Guy]

Speakers are Focal Aria 926, cannot listen as loud as I like due to condo restrictions. That is the reason for creation of this clustro.. you know what LOL

No wonder the Denon is having trouble. Those Aria speakers are incompetently designed. They claim an impedance of 8 ohm and their spec states the minimum impedance is 2.8 ohms

According to audio review the impedance curve of the 826 is very similar to the 836 and both have similarly low impedance minima.

This is the impedance curve of the 836.

That is a very low impedance across a good deal of the power band and at 80 Hz associated with a very negative phase angle. There are also resonances evident, especially at 80 Hz.

Those speakers will stress any amp and are likely to result in premature failure.

I think a big part the reason is the very low crossover to the mid at 290 Hz.

I can tell you right away, I would never pass a design like that. For me that would be a no build. No doubt about it. So I am not surprised you don't like the sound of the Denon driving those speakers.

So you are going to need an amp of 150 watts with a 2 Ohm rating.

You should consider a speaker change though perhaps rather than an amp. I would not have a speaker like that in my house for five minutes. However luckily I don't buy my speakers, but design and build them. That speaker is not one that I am in the habit of designing.

Speaker manufacturers do tend to lie though their teeth about the impedance of their speakers, and frequently rate them 8 ohm when they are nothing of the sort. In fact the minimum impedance is pretty close to the true impedance. A rule of thumb is minimum impedance plus 10%. So that makes your speaker a 2.9 ohm speaker and not 8.

 

[PENG]

Speakers are Focal Aria 926, cannot listen as loud as I like due to condo restrictions. That is the reason for creation of this clustro.. you know what LOL

Thanks for providing the important part, i.e. how loud do you listen. Without the info, we can expect a ton of nonsense of how everyone must use a 4 ohm rated stout power amp for 4 ohm speakers. Such are nonsense because it defines logic, that voltage, current, power requirements varies with not just impedance, but the actual impedance and phase angle versus frequency curve, sensitivity, sound pressure level requirements and distances between speakers and listening positions/room sizes etc.

That's why on this site, many responsible members often suggest the OPs use an online calculator to figure their need, in addition to seeking out the speaker impedance/phase angle curves.

The focal Aria 926, based on the larger 936, can reasonable be expected to need a power amp instead of AVR's own amps, but again it depends on other factors mentioned above. May be try a calculator, and whatever "power need" it shows, get a power amp that is rated for say 2 times (the higher the better, I would use 4X, and 10X for short term duration, but that's just me) that, into 4 ohms.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English

If you use the calculator above, you will see that for distance of 3 meters, even if you listen to reasonable loud level (your neighbor will likely complain unless the concrete wall is at least 8 inches think with sound deadening material) of about 10 dB below reference, that is 95 dB peak, 75 dB average, your Denon AVR can do the job fine.

Regardless, I would still suggest an external power amp for the 926, a tiny class D amp rated about 350 to 500 W 4 ohms will be more than adequate. Focal's spec for amp is: Recommended amplifier power: 40 – 250W

 

[Trell]

Thanks for providing the important part, i.e. how loud do you listen. Without the info, we can expect a ton of nonsense of how everyone must use a 4 ohm rated stout power amp for 4 ohm speakers

My 2015 model Denon AVR-X4200w runs my 4 Ohms speakers just fine in a 5.2 setup. I’m sitting 2.7m from the front speakers. It’s very seldom I play at -20 dB, though (after calibration by Audyssey X32). General listening level is around -30 dB.

The AVR is still running strong while in daily use!

 

[TLS Guy]

My 2015 model Denon AVR-X4200w runs my 4 Ohms speakers just fine in a 5.2 setup. I’m sitting 2.7m from the front speakers. It’s very seldom I play at -20 dB, though (after calibration by Audyssey X32). General listening level is around -30 dB.

The AVR is still running strong while in daily use!

The problem is that 4 ohm loads are all over the map. The speaker in question is below three ohns, but worse the phase angles are brutal.

My point is that you can't just generalize about a four ohm load, they come in all flavors from benign to brutal. The further the crossover point descends the more brutal it is likely to be.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for providing the important part, i.e. how loud do you listen. Without the info, we can expect a ton of nonsense of how everyone must use a 4 ohm rated stout power amp for 4 ohm speakers. Such are nonsense because it defines logic, that voltage, current, power requirements varies with not just impedance, but the actual impedance and phase angle versus frequency curve, sensitivity, sound pressure level requirements and distances between speakers and listening positions/room sizes etc.

That's why on this site, many responsible members often suggest the OPs use an online calculator to figure their need, in addition to seeking out the speaker impedance/phase angle curves.

The focal Aria 926, based on the larger 936, can reasonable be expected to need a power amp instead of AVR's own amps, but again it depends on other factors mentioned above. May be try a calculator, and whatever "power need" it shows, get a power amp that is rated for say 2 times (the higher the better, I would use 4X, and 10X for short term duration, but that's just me) that, into 4 ohms.

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English

If you use the calculator above, you will see that for distance of 3 meters, even if you listen to reasonable loud level (your neighbor will likely complain unless the concrete wall is at least 8 inches think with sound deadening material) of about 10 dB below reference, that is 95 dB peak, 75 dB average, your Denon AVR can do the job fine.

Regardless, I would still suggest an external power amp for the 926, a tiny class D amp rated about 350 to 500 W 4 ohms will be more than adequate. Focal's spec for amp is: Recommended amplifier power: 40 – 250W

The problem comes from three way speakers largely and its got worse. The reason is that there have always been a shortage of mid drivers, with appropriate topend extension. They have been largely adapted woofers.

Making a decent mid which covers the speech discrimination band is a daunting task. I learned this on a great visit to Billy Woodman at ATC, to learn the uphill climb. The best mids are dome mids, and his dome mid is essentially the last one standing, but not available OEM. I use the Dynaudio D76 in a set of my speakers. That is long NLA as new owners can't be bothered to fund the precision engineering involved. I do have a couple of spares stashed away though.

The issue arises because the first crossover point comes too low to create an appropriate passive crossover. This is required because of the lack of HF extension in the mids. So you end up with these low crossovers in the power range and all the problems those creates to avoid stacking of crossovers.

There really are only two solutions to this problem. One is active speakers at least for the lower crossover, the other is more mids, that have significantly more HF extension.

I have always advised members to be very cautious when choosing three ways, as more often then not you will be better off picking a good two way, especially if you are looking to drive it with a receiver.

 

[Trell]

The problem is that 4 ohm loads are all over the map. The speaker in question is below three ohns, but worse the phase angles are brutal.

My point is that you can't just generalize about a four ohm load, they come in all flavors from benign to brutal. The further the crossover point descends the more brutal it is likely to be.

In my particular case my speakers dips into 3.2 Ohms, except the front LR that is just above 4 Ohms. I’ve used the current LR a few years but the previous ones was 3.2 Ohms. All of the speakers are from the same line from the same manufacturer so good enough tonality match.

 

[Genchic]

No wonder the Denon is having trouble. Those Aria speakers are incompetently designed. They claim an impedance of 8 ohm and their spec states the minimum impedance is 2.8 ohms

According to audio review the impedance curve of the 826 is very similar to the 836 and both have similarly low impedance minima.

This is the impedance curve of the 836.

That is a very low impedance across a good deal of the power band and at 80 Hz associated with a very negative phase angle. There are also resonances evident, especially at 80 Hz.

Those speakers will stress any amp and are likely to result in premature failure.

I think a big part the reason is the very low crossover to the mid at 290 Hz.

I can tell you right away, I would never pass a design like that. For me that would be a no build. No doubt about it. So I am not surprised you don't like the sound of the Denon driving those speakers.

So you are going to need an amp of 150 watts with a 2 Ohm rating.

You should consider a speaker change though perhaps rather than an amp. I would not have a speaker like that in my house for five minutes. However luckily I don't buy my speakers, but design and build them. That speaker is not one that I am in the habit of designing.

Speaker manufacturers do tend to lie though their teeth about the impedance of their speakers, and frequently rate them 8 ohm when they are nothing of the sort. In fact the minimum impedance is pretty close to the true impedance. A rule of thumb is minimum impedance plus 10%. So that makes your speaker a 2.9 ohm speaker and not 8.

No wonder the Denon is having trouble. Those Aria speakers are incompetently designed. They claim an impedance of 8 ohm and their spec states the minimum impedance is 2.8 ohms

According to audio review the impedance curve of the 826 is very similar to the 836 and both have similarly low impedance minima.

This is the impedance curve of the 836.

That is a very low impedance across a good deal of the power band and at 80 Hz associated with a very negative phase angle. There are also resonances evident, especially at 80 Hz.

Those speakers will stress any amp and are likely to result in premature failure.

I think a big part the reason is the very low crossover to the mid at 290 Hz.

I can tell you right away, I would never pass a design like that. For me that would be a no build. No doubt about it. So I am not surprised you don't like the sound of the Denon driving those speakers.

So you are going to need an amp of 150 watts with a 2 Ohm rating.

You should consider a speaker change though perhaps rather than an amp. I would not have a speaker like that in my house for five minutes. However luckily I don't buy my speakers, but design and build them. That speaker is not one that I am in the habit of designing.

Speaker manufacturers do tend to lie though their teeth about the impedance of their speakers, and frequently rate them 8 ohm when they are nothing of the sort. In fact the minimum impedance is pretty close to the true impedance. A rule of thumb is minimum impedance plus 10%. So that makes your speaker a 2.9 ohm speaker and not 8.

This Focals were the best sounding speakers in the listening room in $5K price range. To change speakers can be a lengthy process and more expensive then matching an amplifier. I guess being an "Audiophile " in your head sets you on a long path to hunt a "perfect" sound. So, I'll start with the amplifier as you suggested, it can be used with any speakers

 

[Genchic]

No wonder the Denon is having trouble. Those Aria speakers are incompetently designed. They claim an impedance of 8 ohm and their spec states the minimum impedance is 2.8 ohms

According to audio review the impedance curve of the 826 is very similar to the 836 and both have similarly low impedance minima.

This is the impedance curve of the 836.

That is a very low impedance across a good deal of the power band and at 80 Hz associated with a very negative phase angle. There are also resonances evident, especially at 80 Hz.

Those speakers will stress any amp and are likely to result in premature failure.

I think a big part the reason is the very low crossover to the mid at 290 Hz.

I can tell you right away, I would never pass a design like that. For me that would be a no build. No doubt about it. So I am not surprised you don't like the sound of the Denon driving those speakers.

So you are going to need an amp of 150 watts with a 2 Ohm rating.

You should consider a speaker change though perhaps rather than an amp. I would not have a speaker like that in my house for five minutes. However luckily I don't buy my speakers, but design and build them. That speaker is not one that I am in the habit of designing.

Speaker manufacturers do tend to lie though their teeth about the impedance of their speakers, and frequently rate them 8 ohm when they are nothing of the sort. In fact the minimum impedance is pretty close to the true impedance. A rule of thumb is minimum impedance plus 10%. So that makes your speaker a 2.9 ohm speaker and not 8.

 

[Trell]

There really are only two solutions to this problem. One is active speakers at least for the lower crossover, the other is more mids, that have significantly more HF extension.

I and my wife are very happy with our Genelec 2.1 desktop setup each of us have. This is the SAM series with DSP for room compensation.

While great it is also quite expensive. A Genelec setup for our living room would be very expensive with not so nice looks.

The German loud speaker manufacturer Canton do have powered speakers but I’ve not inquired if they are actually active speakers or if it’s just a passive speaker with one amplifier.

 

[Trebdp83]

A shame that 4 ohm variance business. Many would conclude a bigger amp necessary for the job here but there were no complaints concerning the ARCAM compared to the Denon. They are similarly powered but settings vary widely between them.

If playing vinyl music through the ARCAM and Dirac is NOT used, it can be an all analog affair using Analogue Direct. Things will be different using DIRECT mode in the Denon and the LFE + Main setting for the Subwoofer using the Subwoofer Pre Out as I believe an ADC/DAC event takes place there when copying low frequencies to the Subwoofer. The Front Pre Out would need to be used to connect the subs to mimic the ARCAM setup. That would be fine for PHONO and CD sources but would result in full band signals including LFE to the Front speaker terminals and Front Pre Out when Front are set as Large and/or using DIRECT mode.

I’m not sure a bigger amp will do any good here considering volume levels will be moderate and the Denon is still processing and spitting out the signal. I wouldn’t spend any more money on anything until I exhausted every setting option in the Denon to get the desired sound. So, get crackin’ on those 2ch Playback settings. Oh, and tell us more about that TV.

 

[Swerd]

@TLS Guy & @PENG already said it well. Focal Aria 926 speakers do need an external amp to drive them because of their impedance characteristics … low impedance values, the audio frequency range where these low impedances appear, and large shifts in impedance phase angles over that same audio range.

Like TLS Guy & PENG, I couldn't find an impedance curve for the Focal Aria 926. But I'd like to add two independent and reliable review measurements for the similar but larger Focal Aria 936. One is from SoundStage! and the other is from Stereophile. They look similar to me, and they resemble the impedance curves the others posted above. Focal may make somewhat hard-to-drive speakers, but so do many other companies. At least the various Focal models share a consistent overall design.

Here's the impedance curve of the Focal Aria 936 from Stereophile. It shows frequency vs. ohms (solid black line) as well as the impedance phase curve of impedance phase, frequency vs. phase in degrees (dotted black line).

John Atkinson of Stereophile said this:

My estimate of the Focal's voltage sensitivity was 89.5dB(B)/2.83V/m—close to the specified 90dB, and usefully a little higher than average. The Aria 936 is specified as having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms and a minimum impedance of 2.8 ohms; my measurement (fig.1) confirmed the minimum value at 108Hz, but as the impedance stays below 4 ohms from the upper bass [80 Hz] though the lower midrange [500 Hz], where music has high levels of energy, I would recommended using a amplifier rated into 4 ohms with this speaker.

I suggest a relatively inexpensive Class D 2-channel amp from Buckeye Amps. Either one of these:

Hypex NC502MP 2-Channel
Higher power at $695:

• 450 watts @ 2 ohm
• 500 watts @ 4 ohm
• 350 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Hypex NC252MP 2-Channel
Somewhat less power, but adequate for your speakers, at $575:

• 180 watts @ 2 ohm
• 250 watts @ 4 ohm
• 150 watts @ 8 ohm
• (per channel, 1kHz, 1% THD)

Ignore any negative comments you may have seen online about the "poor sound quality" of Class D amps. That may have been true 30 or more years ago, but for the last 20-25 years, Class D amps have become state-of-the-art for audio amps. They are more powerful, measure better than any older Class A-B designs, are smaller in size, and cost less. Once the Hypex and Purifi Class D amps became mature products, new designs of older types of amps came to a halt.

 

[Genchic]

A shame that 4 ohm variance business. Many would conclude a bigger amp necessary for the job here but there were no complaints concerning the ARCAM compared to the Denon. They are similarly powered but settings vary widely between them.

If playing vinyl music through the ARCAM and Dirac is NOT used, it can be an all analog affair using Analogue Direct. Things will be different using DIRECT mode in the Denon and the LFE + Main setting for the Subwoofer using the Subwoofer Pre Out as I believe an ADC/DAC event takes place there when copying low frequencies to the Subwoofer. The Front Pre Out would need to be used to connect the subs to mimic the ARCAM setup. That would be fine for PHONO and CD sources but would result in full band signals including LFE to the Front speaker terminals and Front Pre Out when Front are set as Large and/or using DIRECT mode.

I’m not sure a bigger amp will do any good here considering volume levels will be moderate and the Denon is still processing and spitting out the signal. I wouldn’t spend any more money on anything until I exhausted every setting option in the Denon to get the desired sound. So, get crackin’ on those 2ch Playback settings. Oh, and tell us more about that TV.

Thank you for the suggestion. I definitely will explore the settings you talked about. TV I have is an old 61" LED samsung, one of the 1st once LEDs came out.

 

[Trebdp83]

Ok, the older DLP with LED backlight. Tweak the Denon to your liking and any more money spent should be on a new 4K TV.