Denon preout voltage

[highfigh]

You say that pro audio Crown equipment isn't really made for the consumer market, but several members here have been using them on their home audio systems.

By the way, QSC Digital Cinema amplifier series is indeed compatible with consumer audio products. Their input impedance is specified as follows: 10K ohms unbalanced.
20K ohms balanced

Let's be honest- it's marketed to the consumer crowd, it's not pro/commercial by design and some of the popular consumer equipment isn't true complimentary balanced, even though it has XLR connectors. That's important- if it's not, it lacks some of the benefits and it's just giving people what they want.

The fact that people use it doesn't mean it was meant to be used in that way.

These newer models came out after home theater became 'a thing' and are made to be compatible, I'm not referring to this stuff, as good as it is but how many times have you read that people heard his and other noise immediately after adding a 'pro' amp? That's not always removable by making an adjustment (other than switching between two sensitivity settings) and pro gear has a way to do this, usually a rotary potentiometer. These are on power amps, line/distribution amps and other items that aren't usually included in consumer systems.

Two reasons the real pro stuff isn't used in home/consumer systems is price and image. With 'high end' equipment, it's just too industrial-looking and a lot of pro gear is expensive, but part of that is due to the specs it may be required to meet. Years ago, an AH member, who was adamant that his way was the only way (and he left) argued for some capabilities in a thread about power amp specs and he wasn't on the side of "one channel driven @1KHz is just fine"- he wanted everything to keep working while it was failing during events, used for fire alarms. We obviously don't need that, but the life safety industry does. Markets for electronics exist that consumers never see, think/know/hear about and the equipment can be used outside of their intended uses, but it's not always plug n play.

Pro/commercial equipment isn't designed to provide 'pristine audio' with ~zero noise and distortion because it really doesn't need that- it's usually used in applications where people aren't close enough to the speakers for it to be audible. For those applications, different models are chosen and the specs aren't the same as what we see in the consumer world.

Scroll down to 'Multiple Standards' for an example-

https://fohonline.com/articles/on-the-digital-edge/are-you-operating-at-a-pro-audio-level/

 

[lovinthehd]

Let's be honest- it's marketed to the consumer crowd, it's not pro/commercial by design and some of the popular consumer equipment isn't true complimentary balanced, even though it has XLR connectors. That's important- if it's not, it lacks some of the benefits and it's just giving people what they want.

The fact that people use it doesn't mean it was meant to be used in that way.

These newer models came out after home theater became 'a thing' and are made to be compatible, I'm not referring to this stuff, as good as it is but how many times have you read that people heard his and other noise immediately after adding a 'pro' amp? That's not always removable by making an adjustment (other than switching between two sensitivity settings) and pro gear has a way to do this, usually a rotary potentiometer. These are on power amps, line/distribution amps and other items that aren't usually included in consumer systems.

Two reasons the real pro stuff isn't used in home/consumer systems is price and image. With 'high end' equipment, it's just too industrial-looking and a lot of pro gear is expensive, but part of that is due to the specs it may be required to meet. Years ago, an AH member, who was adamant that his way was the only way (and he left) argued for some capabilities in a thread about power amp specs and he wasn't on the side of "one channel driven @1KHz is just fine"- he wanted everything to keep working while it was failing during events, used for fire alarms. We obviously don't need that, but the life safety industry does. Markets for electronics exist that consumers never see, think/know/hear about and the equipment can be used outside of their intended uses, but it's not always plug n play.

Pro/commercial equipment isn't designed to provide 'pristine audio' with ~zero noise and distortion because it really doesn't need that- it's usually used in applications where people aren't close enough to the speakers for it to be audible. For those applications, different models are chosen and the specs aren't the same as what we see in the consumer world.

Scroll down to 'Multiple Standards' for an example-

https://fohonline.com/articles/on-the-digital-edge/are-you-operating-at-a-pro-audio-level/

All that in mind, still doesn't mean a pro amp from the XLS line in this case has any particular issues with consumer gear.

 

[PENG]

All that in mind, still doesn't mean a pro amp from the XLS line in this case has any particular issues with consumer gear.

100%, his "isn't true complimentary balanced" probably refer to those so called fully differential balanced connections inside the preamp/dac/amp kind of deal, such as Denon's AVP's implementation:

Denonbalanced.jpg (880×644) (audioholics.com)

For those interested, and to avoid being confused by the forum jargons (such as the example seen on this thread), I would suggest people watch the following YT video in which Amir gave a very easy to understand what balanced connections do or not do:

He put it very well and clear (from around 5:50 min mark), what's inside, we don't really care, as long as the output of the amp and the interconnect cable are wired balanced, if there is any noise issues originated in the amp, measurements and specs will show it and people can make their informed choices accordingly.

Understanding Balanced Audio (youtube.com)

I thought it's important to understand that for consumer and/or pro audio applications, the main concern is to suppress noise resulted in long interconnect cables and its mainly about hum/buzz at the lower frequency range, so in that sense, there is not much need to worrying about those so called fully differential, complementary balanced implementation schemes that would be critical for communication applications, or whatever many forum members like to throw around on forums.

The fully balanced input such as that implemented in the Denon AVP, are of course better, as mentioned by Gene in his review, but the not fully balanced (input to output) flagship AVPs such as the AV10 (also measured by Gene), AVM90 measured significantly better than the Denon AVP that Gene measured, so clearly, for those modern AVPs are practically deal silent when their XLR outputs are used. Likewise, there are competently designed power amps including McIntosh, Bryston and Parasound Halo models that have balanced inputs, but are internally unbalanced. Gene obviously likes the fully balanced input to output devices, likely because he used to be a telecommunication engineer that naturally have deal with very low level signal and very high frequencies, so end to end balanced is important. For hifi audio, his Anthem STR preamp is, as he found out, didn't seem to be designed/implemented fully balanced end to end either, but he admitted the bench test results he got was "stellar".

Anthem STR Preamp and Power Amplifier Review (audioholics.com)

 

[highfigh]

All that in mind, still doesn't mean a pro amp from the XLS line in this case has any particular issues with consumer gear.

It would if its XLR inputs are true balanced and the outputs from the piece that's ahead of it aren't. It won't damage anything, but the pro amp's output won't be the same because Pin3 will be connected to Pin1 in the preamp.

 

[PENG]

All that in mind, still doesn't mean a pro amp from the XLS line in this case has any particular issues with consumer gear.

I took a look of the XLS1500's SM, its balanced and unbalanced implementations are based on common practice, as described by Elliot Sound:

This is a common circuit, and can be found in hi-fi equipment, commercial (live sound) gear, and almost anywhere that a balanced output is needed. As discussed above, it's not perfect because one signal is delayed by only U1A (which is immaterial in this arrangement), but the other (inverted) signal has the extra delay of U1B. When combined, they are not (and never can be) perfectly matched at all frequencies. The small time delay (aka propagation delay) of U1B plus its high frequency phase shift means that the two signals are not exact but inverted replicas of each other. There will always be small amplitude and phase errors that mean the summed output is non-zero.

As one would expect the XLS1500/2500 did not use the best OPA, and obviously not fully balanced end to end that are rarely used in low, mid, to even most so called high end gear (except a few, such as certain models of the Emotiva and ATI amps as they are not super expensive, yet claimed to be fully balanced end to end), so you are not going to get SINAD much better than 70 dB, but that's more than meeting their specs. 70 dB SINAD is 0.03% THD+N, that's well below the widely accepted threshold of audibility as far as THD+N goes. I doubt anyone can tell a difference comparing your XLS amps vs the likes of Marantz, Denon, Yamaha's flagship AVRs or integrated amps (on all else being equal, and non clipping basis) except under some specific use conditions, naturally.

Balanced I/O (sound-au.com)

 

[jfortado]

I'm currently using a denon avr-x4300h, I'm thinking of adding an external amplifier. I was considering the outlaw 2220 but I'm seeing that the input voltage required is 1.6v to achieve full power into 8ohms. I contacted denon and they said the output voltage on their preout sections are only 1.2v. Does anyone know how big a difference this would make and maybe how much of that 200 watts I'd be able to tap into?

I’m running a Monolith 7x amplifier using a Denon 3800 in preamplifier mode. I’m having no issues getting the amplifier to drive my speakers to reference levels. It sounds fantastic with no distortion I can hear. I think you would be in a similar situation with your setup.

 

[Danzilla31]

I took a look of the XLS1500's SM, its balanced and unbalanced implementations are based on common practice, as described by Elliot Sound:



As one would expect the XLS1500/2500 did not use the best OPA, and obviously not fully balanced end to end that are rarely used in low, mid, to even most so called high end gear (except a few, such as certain models of the Emotiva and ATI amps as they are not super expensive, yet claimed to be fully balanced end to end), so you are not going to get SINAD much better than 70 dB, but that's more than meeting their specs. 70 dB SINAD is 0.03% THD+N, that's well below the widely accepted threshold of audibility as far as THD+N goes. I doubt anyone can tell a difference comparing your XLS amps vs the likes of Marantz, Denon, Yamaha's flagship AVRs or integrated amps (on all else being equal, and non clipping basis) except under some specific use conditions, naturally.

Balanced I/O (sound-au.com)

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I wish I could add something for the OP but @PENG and @lovinthehd and everyone else you've done such a great job their is nothing to add on lol

OP trust everything these guys are telling you. Your preouts will drive that outlaw no problem.

And as @lovinthehd said I've used crown amplifiers the XLS series in some of my systems with great results