Dolby Atmos 3.1 or 3.1.2 - A/V Receiver and Speaker Recommendations

[03_zip.demo]

Hello Audioholics,

I'm asking the forum for recommendations on an A/V receiver and speakers that can support either of these Dolby Atmos 3.1 configurations (preference being 3.1.2):

• 3.1 Virtual Speaker Setup - Dolby
• 3.1.2 Overhead Speaker Setup - Dolby

I'm looking to install the same 3.1 or 3.1.2 configuration in three separate rooms for movies and gaming. Room dimensions are below with the TV mounted in the center of the width dimension:

1. Living Room w/ fireplace
   1. Length - 21'8"
   2. Width - 17'8"
   3. Height - 9'0"
2. Loft w/ fireplace
   1. Length - 22'4"
   2. Width - 17'11"
   3. Height - 8'0"
3. Basement Space
   1. Length - 11'2"
   2. Width - 19'0"
   3. Height - 9'0"

Here are my constraints:

• A/V receiver must support a speaker/amp configuration of Dolby Atmos 3.1 or Dolby Atmos 3.1.2
• A/V receiver must have at least 4 HDMI 2.1 inputs
• The following speakers must be in-wall mounted
  • Front left and right speakers
  • Height left and right speakers
  • Subwoofer
• Center channel speaker must be less than 7" (height), 39" (width), and 5" (depth) so that it can fit a Mantel Mount system
  • Note: Basement does not have a center channel constraint since there is no fireplace
• Speaker vendors must be one of the following:
  • Definitive Technology™ - High Tech Speakers & Audio Systems
  • James Loudspeaker
  • KEF US | KEF USA
  • Speakers, Headphones, and Premium Home Audio | Klipsch
  • Sonance
  • Totem Acoustic Loudspeakers | Made In Canada
  • Triad | Bespoke Audio Without Compromise (triadspeakers.com)
  • Acceptable to mix and match above speaker brands (if necessary)
    • I've only heard and installed Klipsch, so I'd like some feedback on the other brands if you currently own them

I know I've provided a lot of detail, because I noticed that some of you are extremely detail oriented on this forum. From my weeks of research, the biggest problems that I've seen are the following:

• I haven't found any A/V receivers that support a Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 overhead speaker setup configuration
• I haven't found any A/V receivers that enable Dolby Atmos in a 3.1 configuration
• Center channels within the above dimensions are very limited
  • James Loudspeaker and Definitive Technology have some center channels that meet those dimensions, but it doesn't appear that Definitive Technology offers in-wall subwoofers anymore

I appreciate any help or responses in advance from the forum.

Thanks,
Christian

 

[j_garcia]

Well, you already have lined out plenty of constraints. I would just go listen to as many of these speakers and decide for yourself. Do not mix brands for the front 3, but if you do go Atmos, those can be from another brand if needed.

Budget is not listed. Stay 3.1 if the budget means compromising on the quality of the speakers. If budget is large enough, go 3.1.2. Perhaps 3.1 in one or two of them, but the "main" one 3.1.2? If there is a main vs. casual in the other rooms, I might even say just go 2.1, if they are not large rooms, since "short" centers often don't give the best performance.

 

[03_zip.demo]

Well, you already have lined out plenty of constraints. I would just go listen to as many of these speakers and decide for yourself. Do not mix brands for the front 3, but if you do go Atmos, those can be from another brand if needed.

Budget is not listed. Stay 3.1 if the budget means compromising on the quality of the speakers. If budget is large enough, go 3.1.2. Perhaps 3.1 in one or two of them, but the "main" one 3.1.2? If there is a main vs. casual in the other rooms, I might even say just go 2.1, if they are not large rooms, since "short" centers often don't give the best performance.

Thanks for the reply!

Good advice on mixing brands. I think the subwoofer might be the only speaker I might need to find from a different brand, but I want to stay with the same brand of speakers, if possible.

Good point on budget - I didn't mention it before. I know I don’t want to spend more than $10,000 on an A/V receiver and speakers for a single Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 system. If I go with the best speakers from the brands listed in my original post and a good A/V receiver that supports 3.1.2 with 4 HDMI 2.1 inputs, I hope it will be under that amount.

Question:

Do you know any A/V receivers that support Dolby Atmos 3.1.2?

I have researched Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Sony. The issue that I'm seeing is that either the speaker / amp configuration will disable the height speakers if the L/R surround speakers are disabled or the owner's manual is vague in regards to speaker / amp configuration and Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 support.

You probably already know that when the A/V receiver processes the Dolby Atmos ADM data of the digital waveform from the source, the speaker / amp configuration of the A/V receiver must know what speakers are enabled and where they are generally located in order to render the appropriate waveform to the appropriate speaker. In other words, you can't purchase an 7.2 A/V receiver that supports only a Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 configuration and not connect two of the speakers. This won't work since the processor will try and render the audio objects to all 7 speakers whether they are connected or not. Calibration doesn't solve this either - its simply measurements used by the A/V amplifier to adjust the volume for each individual speaker based on the location of the "best seat in the house".

Unfortunately, Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 does not seem to be a popular configuration, so I'm just trying to find out from anyone on the forum if anyone knows of a receiver that supports this configuration.

 

[j_garcia]

Thanks for the reply!

Good advice on mixing brands. I think the subwoofer might be the only speaker I might need to find from a different brand, but I want to stay with the same brand of speakers, if possible.

Good point on budget - I didn't mention it before. I know I don’t want to spend more than $10,000 on an A/V receiver and speakers for a single Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 system. If I go with the best speakers from the brands listed in my original post and a good A/V receiver that supports 3.1.2 with 4 HDMI 2.1 inputs, I hope it will be under that amount.

Question:

Do you know any A/V receivers that support Dolby Atmos 3.1.2?

I have researched Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, and Sony. The issue that I'm seeing is that either the speaker / amp configuration will disable the height speakers if the L/R surround speakers are disabled or the owner's manual is vague in regards to speaker / amp configuration and Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 support.

You probably already know that when the A/V receiver processes the Dolby Atmos ADM data of the digital waveform from the source, the speaker / amp configuration of the A/V receiver must know what speakers are enabled and where they are generally located in order to render the appropriate waveform to the appropriate speaker. In other words, you can't purchase an 7.2 A/V receiver that supports only a Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 configuration and not connect two of the speakers. This won't work since the processor will try and render the audio objects to all 7 speakers whether they are connected or not. Calibration doesn't solve this either - its simply measurements used by the A/V amplifier to adjust the volume for each individual speaker based on the location of the "best seat in the house".

Unfortunately, Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 does not seem to be a popular configuration, so I'm just trying to find out from anyone on the forum if anyone knows of a receiver that supports this configuration.

I think you misunderstand that. Pretty much every processor that has Atmos will almost certainly support 3.1.2, which is why it's not listed explicitly. You simply configure that you do not have the rears and it knows how to steer the sound. I had to switch to what it calls 11.1 on my Pre (which are configurable for rear/side or heights), then configure that I only have 5.1.4 (as per the manual) and it works fine. When you configure that you don't have a particular speaker, the processor does not try to send sound there and also does not "leave out" that sound.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using Tapatalk

 

[isolar8001]

Question:

Do you know any A/V receivers that support Dolby Atmos 3.1.2?

They all do, Mr.Robot.

 

[03_zip.demo]

There might be some A/V receivers that support it and that is exactly what I'm looking for.

However, I know that every processor that supports Dolby Atmos doesn't support 3.1.2. For example, let's take a look at a Denon receiver that I researched.

Denon AVR-S970H

The quotes and links below are from the owner's manual for this model.

• When “Surround” is set to “No”, “Surround Back” settings are automatically set to “No”.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYyfgvveow.php
• Height speakers can be used with the Surround Back terminal.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYnigubtwe.php

Therefore, my understanding is that Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 is NOT possible because disabling the surround speakers will automatically disable the surround backs or the height speakers.

The other Denon receivers I've researched also have this same constraint. And it certainly takes time to go through these websites and find these little gotchas, which was one of the reasons for this post.

It would be great if the user interface / processor / amp allowed you to program the terminals on the back of the receiver to the location the connected speaker was located in the room. I haven't seen that though.

 

[Golfx]

Hi you are just too new to understand the helpful answers from above. Why do you want 2 atmos but no surrounds? The surrounds will have a far greater impact on your listening than two overhead speakers. There are lots of sound directed to surrounds but not that much to atmos.

I would call Crutchfield https://www.crutchfield.com/m_10400/Receivers-Amplifiers.html and start an interrogative with one of the salesmen. They are a really honest online sales company that gives you a 60 day return and lifetime tech support. The latter will be very important to you in helping you setup your system and work with unforeseen glitches.

 

[03_zip.demo]

Hi you are just too new to understand the helpful answers from above. Why do you want 2 atmos but no surrounds? The surrounds will have a far greater impact on your listening than two overhead speakers. There are lots of sound directed to surrounds but not that much to atmos.

I would call Crutchfield https://www.crutchfield.com/m_10400/Receivers-Amplifiers.html and start an interrogative with one of the salesmen. They are a really honest online sales company that gives you a 60 day return and lifetime tech support. The latter will be very important to you in helping you setup your system and work with unforeseen glitches.

I appreciate the answers above, but I wouldn't say they have answered my questions. Most of the answers were simply generalizations without any recommendations on A/V receiver or speaker makes / models to check out that met my needs. And that's okay - maybe someone will respond in the future with recommendations on actual makes and models.

For now, I'm reaching out to the A/V and speaker manufacturers directly to get the answers. From the manual and specifications, it seems like the Sony STR-AZ3000ES receiver supports Dolby Atmos 3.1.2. However, it doesn't look like the Marantz CINEMA70s or Denon AVR-S970H or Denon AVR-X1800H receivers support Dolby Atmos 3.1.2.

I'm stuck with Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 (or 3.1) in these rooms for a few reasons:

1. The wife will only allow in-wall speakers - the center must be mounted below TV
2. There are wall windows in two of the locations so surround sound L/R isn't possible
3. The basement space is not designed where in-wall speakers make sense for surround sound
4. I prefer an A/V receiver with passive speakers over traditional soundbars

Although I certainly don't consider this surround sound, I wanted something for my family where the TV dialogue and sound is better than what typically comes with a TV or soundbar. Since I'm building a new home, I wanted the builder's sub-contractor to install the wiring and speakers before the drywall and paint goes up. The sub-contractor only sells the speaker brands I mentioned previously. Fortunately, I will have a dedicated room in the basement for a home theater with 7.2.6 surround sound.

 

[isolar8001]

Denon AVR-S970H

The quotes and links below are from the owner's manual for this model.

• When “Surround” is set to “No”, “Surround Back” settings are automatically set to “No”.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYyfgvveow.php
• Height speakers can be used with the Surround Back terminal.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYnigubtwe.php

“Surround Back” is only used in a 7.1 system. The height reference is just an alternate wiring option on the model you are looking at. (near cheapest Denon model)

And like GolfX just said...why on Earth would you not want just normal surrounds?

Getting the Atmos bug involves doing it right or don't do it at all....a 5.1 system will far outperform what you are (for some unknown reason) striving for.

There's a very good reason you don't hear about 3.1.2 systems. They are nonsensical.
Just do 3.1 if you have restraints.

 

[03_zip.demo]

“Surround Back” is only used in a 7.1 system. The height reference is just an alternate wiring option on the model you are looking at. (near cheapest Denon model)

And like GolfX just said...why on Earth would you not want just normal surrounds?

Getting the Atmos bug involves doing it right or don't do it at all....a 5.1 system will far outperform what you are (for some unknown reason) striving for.

There's a very good reason you don't hear about 3.1.2 systems. They are nonsensical.
Just do 3.1 if you have restraints.

I don't have a Dolby Atmos "bug", but I do believe positional audio will be used more in the future regardless of speaker configuration. If you aren't familiar, you should really take a look at the Dolby Atmos ADM profile spec:
Dolby Atmos ADM Profile specification

This describes the metadata for a BWAV ADM master file that is created for linear media, such as movies. It's used with the audio channel waveforms in to describe the channels, channel groups, speaker assignments or positions, etc. A Dolby Atmos supported A/V receiver processes this metadata to render the audio channels. The audioChannelFormat metadata block supports traditional speaker assignments or positional audio, so a sound engineer has the choice.

It does seem like the audio channels in many Dolby Atmos enabled movies, especially older movies, are mixed down to traditional speaker assignments (ie. no positional audio). And you would be correct that Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 probably won't matter much in that case. I guess I'm hopeful that future movie mixes will utilize positional audio channels so the A/V receivers can pan more audio to the height speakers.

For games that use the latest game engines (Unreal or Unity) that support Dolby Atmos, they can render the cartesian coordinates for each audio channel dynamically, which means better adoption of positional audio for games in the short term - and more utilization of height speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I saw recently a comment that without surrounds some avrs may not be able to process atmos/heights. I have no idea, but something to double check. I'd hope if you simply tell it what speakers you do have, that it would steer appropriately but....

 

[03_zip.demo]

I saw recently a comment that without surrounds some avrs may not be able to process atmos/heights. I have no idea, but something to double check. I'd hope if you simply tell it what speakers you do have, that it would steer appropriately but....

Yes, I actually made that same comment above after reading the manuals for some of the Denon A/V receivers, but maybe you saw another post on the forum with the same comment.

I agree with you that programmable speaker terminals on the A/V receiver would be nice. I assume that all the speaker terminals use the same DAC and have the same I/O impedance termination with the exception of the subwoofer, so I'm not really sure why the speaker terminals can't be programmable. My only guess it would probably drive up the manufacturing costs for a receiver in an extremely competitive cost driven market.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, I actually made that same comment above after reading the manuals for some of the Denon A/V receivers, but maybe you saw another post on the forum with the same comment.

I agree with you that programmable speaker terminals on the A/V receiver would be nice. I assume that all the speaker terminals use the same DAC and have the same I/O impedance termination with the exception of the subwoofer, so I'm not really sure why the speaker terminals can't be programmable. My only guess it would probably drive up the manufacturing costs for a receiver in an extremely competitive cost driven market.

I didn't go back in this thread, but was something recent in another thread discussing speaker possibilities. Have no idea of the technical difficulties in simply rerouting audio that most avrs have done with many speaker configurations but haven't gone atmos myself, so never experimented with this aspect. @Trebdp83 I think made the comment IIRC and has a pretty solid handle on many units' particulars.

 

[Golfx]

Call Crutchfield and get answers to your questions in a back and forth conversation. That is what their knowledgeable sales advisors are for.

 

[j_garcia]

There might be some A/V receivers that support it and that is exactly what I'm looking for.

However, I know that every processor that supports Dolby Atmos doesn't support 3.1.2. For example, let's take a look at a Denon receiver that I researched.

Denon AVR-S970H

The quotes and links below are from the owner's manual for this model.

• When “Surround” is set to “No”, “Surround Back” settings are automatically set to “No”.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYyfgvveow.php
• Height speakers can be used with the Surround Back terminal.
  • https://manuals.denon.com/AVRS970H/NA/EN/DRDZSYnigubtwe.php

Therefore, my understanding is that Dolby Atmos 3.1.2 is NOT possible because disabling the surround speakers will automatically disable the surround backs or the height speakers.

The other Denon receivers I've researched also have this same constraint. And it certainly takes time to go through these websites and find these little gotchas, which was one of the reasons for this post.

It would be great if the user interface / processor / amp allowed you to program the terminals on the back of the receiver to the location the connected speaker was located in the room. I haven't seen that though.

I am going to say this assumption is incorrect. Turning off surrounds turns off the rears since it does not make sense to have rears without sides. As long as the rear heights are assignable, it should work.

I read the manual many times for my 7705 and it took me a lot of poking around the menus to see that what was stated in the manual was not clear or 100% definitive and things are possible that are not explicitly stated in the manual by how you configure it. For any current models that are not bottom tier, I would expect this to be true as well: basically if it has Atmos, it likely has this rear height vs. rear surround configurability. When you tell it you are using heights, which surrounds you have becomes irrelevant because the software knows these speakers have a different use case.

 

[03_zip.demo]

I am going to say this assumption is incorrect. Turning off surrounds turns off the rears since it does not make sense to have rears without sides. As long as the rear heights are assignable, it should work.

I read the manual many times for my 7705 and it took me a lot of poking around the menus to see that what was stated in the manual was not clear or 100% definitive and things are possible that are not explicitly stated in the manual by how you configure it. For any current models that are not bottom tier, I would expect this to be true as well: basically if it has Atmos, it likely has this rear height vs. rear surround configurability. When you tell it you are using heights, which surrounds you have becomes irrelevant because the software knows these speakers have a different use case.

What is a 7705? I'm not familiar with that make or model.

I'm assuming you aren't talking about a Denon receiver. I purchased a Denon X-4500H and I know for a fact that the surround backs can't be enabled if the surround L/R aren't enabled with the manual configuration. There is also no manual configuration to enable the overhead height speakers without also enabling the surround L/R as well. To be fair, this is an older model (I think it came out in 2018) and there are many things I like about it, so I thought I would check out the latest models. However, as shown in the links to the Dennon manual above, the latest Denon models state that manually turning off the surround L/R terminals will automatically turn off the surround rear terminals and the surround rear terminals are where the heights need to be connected. It doesn't seem like anything has changed since 2018 as far as Denon is concerned.

 

[j_garcia]

Marantz AV7705 Preamp, which is also from around 2018 and is 11.1. I haven't configured any Denons for Atmos.

I googled it though, and even the lower model 2203 from 2016 can do what you are talking about. There are multiple configurations you need to alter: 1) The speaker assignment for which are present (no surrounds) and 2) AMP ASSIGN and assign the rear channels to heights, because the rear channels are now available. 3) speaker config that includes the heights in the config. This is pretty standard for all AVRs that have assignable amps/channels and how it all works together is NOT so obvious from the manual, as I mentioned previously. This would suggest even current ones will have this capability.

Amp Assign AVR-X2300W

manuals.denon.com

Looking at the x4500, it has dedicated terminals for all the heights, so there is NO relationship between the heights and the rear surrounds. In this case, it does not matter to the heights if you tell it you have no surrounds as far as I can tell.

Connecting 11.1-channel speakers AVR-X4500H

manuals.denon.com

Perhaps you would be better off talking to a live person about this specific aspect to find an AVR that does this for sure.

 

[Trebdp83]

Different brand receivers will have different limitations concerning height speaker assignments based on the configuration of the ear level speakers. A Denon AVR-X4500H is going to be more limited in many different ways compared to a new AVR-X4800H.

Concerning 3.1.2, it can be done in any new receiver featuring at least seven amps for an X.1.2 configuration. I think I read in the original post that ALL speakers were going to be on the wall. I'll proceed as if that is the case.

Using a Denon receiver for 3.1.2, specifically the S970H, one needs to configure the amps for 7.1. Then, the actual Speakers to be used can be selected in the settings. For 3.1.2, the Front and Center speakers would be set to YES. The Surround and Surround Back speakers will be set to NO. Then, because we are working with wall mounted height speakers, Front Height speakers would be selected for the Atmos speakers, NOT Top Front(Ceiling Mounted), Top Middle(Ceiling Mounted) or Front Dolby(Bouncy House/Upfiring Speaker/Module.) The Surround Dolby option will be unavailable here when Surround speakers are not configured. Denon does not allow for Top Rear speakers in their 7.1 receivers.

I don't think I'd bother with Front Height speakers and would simply use Virtual Height speakers and do 3.1 here. Results will vary of course but when set to 3.1 with Speaker Virtualizer ON for Dolby Atmos tracks, my Onkyo spits out something better than just the DD+ signal sans Atmos metadata when playing Dolby Atmos music bitstreams with just 3.1. If the Speaker Virtualizer is OFF, Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization will not work and the Atmos metadata will be lost. The signal will now display as DD+ rather than Atmos/DD+.

All of this is based on the assumption that Surround speakers and Ceiling speakers are off the table in certain rooms here. Setting up the speakers will be a bit more complex using some receivers compared to other receivers. My seven channel Onkyo makes it easy. You can start at 2.1 and go up to 7.1. Then, after 7.1, you start at the beginning again but with Height speakers added into the mix. So, then it is 2.1.2 and so on up to 5.1.2. Onkyo actually does allow the use of Top Rear speakers with their seven channel receivers when configured for 3.1.2.

Here are some pics of a 3.1.2 configuration in action using my Onkyo for reference. I actually run a 5.1 configuration using two subs and Virtual Height Speakers. The Speaker Virtualizer must be ON to make use of Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization and DTS Virtual:X. Denons can also make use of both of them while others just Dolby. Apologies for pic quality. I’m not a fan of taking pics of TV screens.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

For AVR, I would look at a Denon or Yamaha.

For speakers, I would look at KEF on your list.

 

[03_zip.demo]

Marantz AV7705 Preamp, which is also from around 2018 and is 11.1. I haven't configured any Denons for Atmos.

I googled it though, and even the lower model 2203 from 2016 can do what you are talking about. There are multiple configurations you need to alter: 1) The speaker assignment for which are present (no surrounds) and 2) AMP ASSIGN and assign the rear channels to heights, because the rear channels are now available. 3) speaker config that includes the heights in the config. This is pretty standard for all AVRs that have assignable amps/channels and how it all works together is NOT so obvious from the manual, as I mentioned previously. This would suggest even current ones will have this capability.

Amp Assign AVR-X2300W

manuals.denon.com

Looking at the x4500, it has dedicated terminals for all the heights, so there is NO relationship between the heights and the rear surrounds. In this case, it does not matter to the heights if you tell it you have no surrounds as far as I can tell.

Connecting 11.1-channel speakers AVR-X4500H

manuals.denon.com

Perhaps you would be better off talking to a live person about this specific aspect to find an AVR that does this for sure.

Thanks @j_garcia - I agree with you that some of this is not clear from the manual or specifications. It's unrealistic to purchase all of these receivers to figure out what works and what doesn't. Before this post, I was trying (and failing) to go by the manuals and specifications to figure out what actually works, which is time consuming.

You have a nice unit, but I'm only looking at receivers with a combined pre-amp and amp that support no more than 7.2 channels since I assumed I would find one of them that would do the job and reduce the overall cost. Based on the pattern I'm seeing (you might be seeing the same); maybe the key is finding one that has dedicated height terminals.

You are correct that my Denon X-4500H has dedicated height terminals. When setting up my system for 5.1.4 (which works perfectly well), I noticed that the heights can't be enabled without also enabling the surrounds. You could be right that it's possible I missed something, but I'm limited by the UI and there are limitations for the speaker configurations.

I'm pretty sure the salespeople at Crutchfield (or any store) are NOT going to know this level of detail about these receivers unless they have actually set them up in a 3.1.2 configuration. I guess thought I would have better luck on this forum by chatting with people that have a similar configuration.