Yamaha RX-A8A - large front disables subwoofer.

[Christianms]

Hi.

Just read the review on Audioholics on the 1723 Tower THX. In the review it's recommended to set these to large even with a subwoofer. I've run the fronts as small and select 1x subwoofer (SW1). When I switch fronts to large it appears that my subwoofer is disabled, even tho it shows in the pattern setup. The front display of the AV, which usually shows F and SW1, does not show SW1 with large fronts. Switching back and forth between small and large with bass music I can also hear and feel that the subwoofer turns on/off. Am I doing something wrong in the setup, or is it not possible to run large fronts and subwoofer on this AV? The Yamaha manual does not provide any good answers. Appreciate any help and advice.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In your settings, when you set fronts to Large, does sub still show as being used/present in the settings?

 

[Christianms]

In your settings, when you set fronts to Large, does sub still show as being used/present in the settings?

Yes, in the visualization of the room it shows the front speakers as large (towers) and one subwoofer. I've also double checked that SW1 is set to "use".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, in the visualization of the room it shows the front speakers as large (towers) and one subwoofer. I've also double checked that SW1 is set to "use".

But still no bass comes out of the subs?

Might have to use the extra bass feature. @Tankini might know. I have always set my speakers to Small regardless of the speakers - even when I owned the Revel Salon2 which goes down to 20Hz.

 

[Christianms]

But still no bass comes out of the subs?

Might have to use the double bass feature.

Subwoofer dies out as soon as I switch the fronts to large. Double bass, does that mean set SW2 to "use" as well?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Subwoofer dies out as soon as I switch the fronts to large. Double bass, does that mean set SW2 to "use" as well?

Yeah Large + Sub use + Extra Bass.

 

[Christianms]

Yeah try that.

Thanks! I'll try that, and the "extra bass" feature later today.

I've run them as small up until the review of my speakers. Figured I'd try it since it was recommended. But now I also want to figure out if my AV is malfunctioning, or if it's unable to run this setup.

 

[Tankini]

Also in (Stereo) mode,2.0 the there will be No Signal sent from the AVR to your Sub/S, when front L/R are set to Larger. you'll have to click on (Extra Bass) in order to get 2.1 or 2.2. When L/R main speakers are set to Large, I believe the signal is fixed at 120 Hz. But only when in Stereo mode, two channel. When Extra Bass is set to (On) you will get 2.1 for Stereo mode. Most set front L/R to small and use the cutoff settings at 80Hz as a starting point. As for Sub 2? Either or, both are Mono. Want more than 2 subs? Just daisy chain your Subs. There's this one dude he has 10 Subs in his set-up.

 

[Trebdp83]

The Yamaha Extra Bass feature sends the low frequency signals, not to be confused with the LFE, of the Front channels to the subwoofer regardless of the Front speakers size setting.

While the setting works with Large Front speakers as it should, NEVER use it with Small Front speakers. It will actually boost bass sounds and things can get ugly.

I’d set the Front to Small and leave Extra Bass OFF. While it works with Front set to Large, you cannot do anything about the low frequencies copied to the subwoofer as they are fixed.

There may be no issues with 2.0 signals, but multichannel signals can pack a wallop and the Fronts will be hit with Full Band signals. It can muddy things up or harm Front speakers if pushed too hard when set to Large.

Small Front speaker setting will allow for more tweaking and better integration of speakers and subs and lighten the load on the receiver. Heat here is not your friend. Let the subs do what they do best.

 

[Christianms]

Yeah Large + Sub use + Extra Bass.

Extra base setting did the trick! Fronts run as large with the subwoofer working as it did before. Thanks for the advice, much appreciated!

 

[Christianms]

Also in (Stereo) mode,2.0 the there will be No Signal sent from the AVR to your Sub/S, when front L/R are set to Larger. you'll have to click on (Extra Bass) in order to get 2.1 or 2.2. When L/R main speakers are set to Large, I believe the signal is fixed at 120 Hz. But only when in Stereo mode, two channel. When Extra Bass is set to (On) you will getting 2.1 for Stereo mode. Most set front L/R to small and use the cutoff settings at 80Hz as a starting point. As for Sub 2? Either or, both are Mono. Want more than 2 subs? Just daisy chain your Subs. There's this one dude he has 10 Subs in his set-up.

Thank you for the detailed description! Any advice on crossover frequency? 80 Hz?

 

[Christianms]

View attachment 68275
View attachment 68276
The Yamaha Extra Bass feature sends the low frequency signals, not to be confused with the LFE, of the Front channels to the subwoofer regardless of the Front speakers size setting.

While the setting works with Large Front speakers as it should, NEVER use it with Small Front speakers. It will actually boost bass sounds and things can get ugly.

I’d set the Front to Small and leave Extra Bass OFF. While it works with Front set to Large, you cannot do anything about the low frequencies copied to the subwoofer as they are fixed.

There may be no issues with 2.0 signals, but multichannel signals can pack a wallop and the Fronts will be hit with Full Band signals. It can muddy things up or harm Front speakers if pushed too hard when set to Large.

Small Front speaker setting will allow for more tweaking and better integration of speakers and subs and lighten the load on the receiver. Heat here is not your friend. Let the subs do what they do best.

Great info, thanks a lot! I'm just curious to see how it runs with large fronts in a 2.1 setup, since James and Gene at Audioholics recommended it for these speakers. I know it goes against the usual setting, as they also point out. Might go back to the original setup after a test period. And if I understand you correctly, I might have to when I get my rear speakers for the system.

 

[Tankini]

View attachment 68275
View attachment 68276
The Yamaha Extra Bass feature sends the low frequency signals, not to be confused with the LFE, of the Front channels to the subwoofer regardless of the Front speakers size setting.

While the setting works with Large Front speakers as it should, NEVER use it with Small Front speakers. It will actually boost bass sounds and things can get ugly.

I’d set the Front to Small and leave Extra Bass OFF. While it works with Front set to Large, you cannot do anything about the low frequencies copied to the subwoofer as they are fixed.

There may be no issues with 2.0 signals, but multichannel signals can pack a wallop and the Fronts will be hit with Full Band signals. It can muddy things up or harm Front speakers if pushed too hard when set to Large.

Small Front speaker setting will allow for more tweaking and better integration of speakers and subs and lighten the load on the receiver. Heat here is not your friend. Let the subs do what they do best.

My man!! Very nice info! Your correct about that Extra bass being left on, for anything other than Stereo use mode. I've experimented with it on, say 5.1, 7.1 Especially at higher volumes it can introduce distortion, like muddles up the low-end. At moderate to low volume levels seem to be alright. I like my front mains set to large in a 5.1 set. Which like, @Christianms stated goes against Dolby recommendation.
My cut-off for low-end is set to 60Hz, front L/R main set to larger with extra bass set to off in surround use. I will add a 2nd Sub soon, and up my cut-off to 80Hz and set front mains to small. It's a preference.

 

[Christianms]

My man!! Very nice info! Your correct about that Extra bass being left on, for anything other than Stereo use mode. I've experimented with it on, say 5.1, 7.1 Especially at higher volumes it can introduce distortion, like muddles up the low-end. At moderate to low volume levels seem to be alright. I like my front mains set to large in a 5.1 set. Which like, @Christianms stated goes against Dolby recommendation.
My cut-off for low-end is set to 60Hz, front L/R main set to larger with extra bass set to off in surround use. I will add a 2nd Sub soon, and up my cut-off to 80Hz and set front mains to small. It's a preference.

I'll test out 60 Hz and see, it's easy enough to tweak the frequency with the app connect to the subwoofer. When you switch extra bass off in surround, how do you maintain the subwoofer with fronts set to large?

 

[Tankini]

I'll test out 60 Hz and see, it's easy enough to tweak the frequency with the app connect to the subwoofer. When you switch extra bass off in surround, how do you maintain the subwoofer with fronts set to large?

My speakers are RBH Elite 55E towers, can't exactly remember the roll-off on the low-end on my towers, for my liking, considering room, etc. I played around and found 60Hz good for my environment. I went with that, well, I have only one 12" sub. If I had two 12" subs I'd bring it back up to 80Hz. Now, with that said, at higher volume levels say -10dbs or more, yeah low end can get a little muddy. Music 2.1 I've taking the volume up to 0. Clean, kick ass bass, But I should state I also PEQ my Subs low-end and made "some" PEQ adjustments on my LCR.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you for the detailed description! Any advice on crossover frequency? 80 Hz?

Usually with a double bass type setting the crossover is limited to just being a low pass filter for the sub. Experiment, depends on both subs and speakers used....

 

[Tankini]

Usually with a double bass type setting the crossover is limited to just being a low pass filter for the sub. Experiment, depends on both subs and speakers used....

Thanks for chiming in HD, I don't explain as well as you can. I comprehend better than I can explain.

 

[Trebdp83]

I'll test out 60 Hz and see, it's easy enough to tweak the frequency with the app connect to the subwoofer. When you switch extra bass off in surround, how do you maintain the subwoofer with fronts set to large?

This is where many receivers come up short, including this particular Yamaha receiver. With multichannel signals containing LFE(0.1) information, the subwoofer will receive a signal regardless of the speaker sizes and sound modes. This is not the case with 2.0 signals played with the Front Speakers set to Large using any sound mode and Extra Bass would need to be ON in order to get a signal to the subwoofer.

For those wanting their Front Speakers set to Large AND also wanting a signal sent to the subwoofer in Direct or Stereo mode BUT also want to use a crossover when using Surround up mixers with 2.0 signals or using a Straight decode of multichannel signals containing LFE(0.1) information, certain Denon/Marantz models contain a 2ch Playback feature to do it.

If those same folks also want to play multichannel signals in Stereo mode but keep LFE signals from the Large Front Speakers and only output them from the Subwoofer, they can do it using the LFE Distribution setting. If they want to adjust the level of low frequencies copied to the Subwoofer from the Large Front Speakers, they can also do that using the Bass Extraction feature.

Many don’t take issue with a Small Speaker settings for ALL Speakers so that they can use a crossover for ALL sound modes and signals save for Pure Direct/Direct mode. Some want more options and the ability to run Front Speakers as Large for two channel or multichannel signals and get a signal to the Subwoofer that they can adjust to their liking. The LFE+Main feature used in combination with the Bass Extraction and LFE Distribution features in certain Denon/Marantz models are a real plus for those wanting to run Front Speakers as Large/Full Band.

 

[Christianms]

This is where many receivers come up short, including this particular Yamaha receiver. With multichannel signals containing LFE(0.1) information, the subwoofer will receive a signal regardless of the speaker sizes and sound modes. This is not the case with 2.0 signals played with the Front Speakers set to Large using any sound mode and Extra Bass would need to be ON in order to get a signal to the subwoofer.

For those wanting their Front Speakers set to Large AND also wanting a signal sent to the subwoofer in Direct or Stereo mode BUT also want to use a crossover when using Surround up mixers with 2.0 signals or using a Straight decode of multichannel signals containing LFE(0.1) information, certain Denon/Marantz models contain a 2ch Playback feature to do it.

If those same folks also want to play multichannel signals in Stereo mode but keep LFE signals from the Large Front Speakers and only output them from the Subwoofer, they can do it using the LFE Distribution setting. If they want to adjust the level of low frequencies copied to the Subwoofer from the Large Front Speakers, they can also do that using the Bass Extraction feature.

Many don’t take issue with a Small Speaker settings for ALL Speakers so that they can use a crossover for ALL sound modes and signals save for Pure Direct/Direct mode. Some want more options and the ability to run Front Speakers as Large for two channel or multichannel signals and get a signal to the Subwoofer that they can adjust to their liking. The LFE+Main feature used in combination with the Bass Extraction and LFE Distribution features in certain Denon/Marantz models are a real plus for those wanting to run Front Speakers as Large/Full Band.

Great explanation! Might have to consider a swap to Marantz if they have more features that allow for better customization of this type of setup. Either way, thank you for the detailed information. And if I understand you correctly the subwoofer will receive a signal in multichannel regardless of Extra Bass on or off, so in that case it's just a matter of preference?

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes. Keep in mind that with the Yamaha, you do not have an LFE Distribution setting to trim or remove LFE signals from the Fronts when set to Large and LFE will be sent to them as well as the subwoofer when playing multichannel signals.

Some movie soundtracks have substantial amounts of bass sent to the Front Speakers even when they are set to Small and using an 80Hz crossover. Extra care should be taken when running them set to Large. Again, NEVER use Extra Bass feature when Front Speakers are set to Small.