Low pass cutoff for my speakers or full signal?

[MrBoat]

Why do we not send a full signal to our front speakers or even surrounds if they can handle it?

My dirac sets basically everything at 70? Should I go with that even if my speakers are full bandwith?

Just wondering why we do this. Also Dirac set my sub to 120. I thought that was somewhat off.

Monoprice THX in walls. Onkyo RZ 50. RSL 12s sub

I have a couple pair of speakers that I can let run full range, and just use the subs from 45hz down. But one pair of the mains are 12" two-way and are very capable in the mid bass/upper sub bass region. Plus their excursion isn't ridiculous even at higher volume levels so they're not walking all over the mid range. The other pair is 8" three-way design that really only need the subs from 45hz on down as well. At least with what amounts to a music only system. Also, it helps that I am not allergic to actually listening to my speakers, even way off axis from one of the two channels at times.

I don't use any room correction. As a 99% near field music listener, I don't need it. The most I have to do is adjust the gain of the subs depending on what I am listening to. All my bass/room modes end up at the other end of the house where nobody really hangs out and somehow cancel themselves so they don't come back to me. Otherwise, I'd end up putting a lot of resources and compromises for an audience elsewhere in the immediate space that doesn't exist.

It's funny in a way. I had a friend who was convinced that I was getting away with minimal EQ because I was just used to a crappy setup, even though I have been doing this about 30 more years than he has. All he has ever known is auto room correction. It was not until he tried mine that he had to eat his own words, and then promptly went home and set to work on putting up second system nearly exactly as my own. Now to hear him talk, you would think he invented it.

 

[Paul McNeil]

I have a couple pair of speakers that I can let run full range, and just use the subs from 45hz down. But one pair of the mains are 12" two-way and are very capable in the mid bass/upper sub bass region. Plus their excursion isn't ridiculous even at higher volume levels so they're not walking all over the mid range. The other pair is 8" three-way design that really only need the subs from 45hz on down as well. At least with what amounts to a music only system. Also, it helps that I am not allergic to actually listening to my speakers, even way off axis from one of the two channels at times.

I don't use any room correction. As a 99% near field music listener, I don't need it. The most I have to do is adjust the gain of the subs depending on what I am listening to. All my bass/room modes end up at the other end of the house where nobody really hangs out and somehow cancel themselves so they don't come back to me. Otherwise, I'd end up putting a lot of resources and compromises for an audience elsewhere in the immediate space that doesn't exist.

It's funny in a way. I had a friend who was convinced that I was getting away with minimal EQ because I was just used to a crappy setup, even though I have been doing this about 30 more years than he has. All he has ever known is auto room correction. It was not until he tried mine that he had to eat his own words, and then promptly went home and set to work on putting up second system nearly exactly as my own. Now to hear him talk, you would think he invented it.

Defy physics, at your risk. Most hear the room, not their ultra-accurate mains and subwoofers, in the bass region, wherever they sit. If you don't, you are blessed with a beautiful room.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a couple pair of speakers that I can let run full range, and just use the subs from 45hz down. But one pair of the mains are 12" two-way and are very capable in the mid bass/upper sub bass region. Plus their excursion isn't ridiculous even at higher volume levels so they're not walking all over the mid range. The other pair is 8" three-way design that really only need the subs from 45hz on down as well. At least with what amounts to a music only system. Also, it helps that I am not allergic to actually listening to my speakers, even way off axis from one of the two channels at times.

I don't use any room correction. As a 99% near field music listener, I don't need it. The most I have to do is adjust the gain of the subs depending on what I am listening to. All my bass/room modes end up at the other end of the house where nobody really hangs out and somehow cancel themselves so they don't come back to me. Otherwise, I'd end up putting a lot of resources and compromises for an audience elsewhere in the immediate space that doesn't exist.

It's funny in a way. I had a friend who was convinced that I was getting away with minimal EQ because I was just used to a crappy setup, even though I have been doing this about 30 more years than he has. All he has ever known is auto room correction. It was not until he tried mine that he had to eat his own words, and then promptly went home and set to work on putting up second system nearly exactly as my own. Now to hear him talk, you would think he invented it.

You are in general correct. Often in human endeavors current wisdom is so often wrong.

In this era if bass management and boat loads of Eq, it is actually insane.

Many speakers can handle the full range.

The only speakers in my AV room I crossover are the 6" ceiling speakers.

The rest run full range and have variable BSC, although the surrounds just have two settings whereas all the others have continuously variable BSC.

The major beef I have with the sub bass management issue, is that the fundamental frequencies and harmonics are massively separated in time and therefore phase, which are two different ways of saying the same thing, These time shifts come not only form physical separation but crossover phase shifts. Sure you can fudge this from some degree with the set up distance measuring but only for one spot.

If you do this a double bass and cello will not sound correct, and drums will not have their correct transient response preserved. This absolutely will not do for the critical listener.

That is why I have an integrated design. I let my mids even roll off naturally and they do fine even at power. First order minimal phase crossovers are used in the BSC circuit, and there is close to minimal phase condition in the high pass of the bass line drivers.

The room I admit is custom and has optimal dimension ratios.

No, I do not hear my room. I hear the location, and I hear the the Philharmonie, Orchestra Halls in Minneapolis and Detroit and so on. They all sound very accurate.

I also attend local concerts and many are streamed and I can hear the concert that I attended.

The sound in this room is virtually identical to what I heard at the concerts. I have to say that the Dolby upmixer does a really job, realistically preserving the ring of the halls and churches.

 

[Paul McNeil]

You are in general correct. Often in human endeavors current wisdom is so often wrong.

In this era if bass management and boat loads of Eq, it is actually insane.

Many speakers can handle the full range.

The only speakers in my AV room I crossover are the 6" ceiling speakers.

The rest run full range and have variable BSC, although the surrounds just have two settings whereas all the others have continuously variable BSC.

The major beef I have with the sub bass management issue, is that the fundamental frequencies and harmonics are massively separated in time and therefore phase, which are two different ways of saying the same thing, These time shifts come not only form physical separation but crossover phase shifts. Sure you can fudge this from some degree with the set up distance measuring but only for one spot.

If you do this a double bass and cello will not sound correct, and drums will not have their correct transient response preserved. This absolutely will not do for the critical listener.

That is why I have an integrated design. I let my mids even roll off naturally and they do fine even at power. First order minimal phase crossovers are used in the BSC circuit, and there is close to minimal phase condition in the high pass of the bass line drivers.

The room I admit is custom and has optimal dimension ratios.

No, I do not hear my room. I hear the location, and I hear the the Philharmonie, Orchestra Halls in Minneapolis and Detroit and so on. They all sound very accurate.

I also attend local concerts and many are streamed and I can hear the concert that I attended.

The sound in this room is virtually identical to what I heard at the concerts. I have to say that the Dolby upmixer does a really job, realistically preserving the ring of the halls and churches.

God bless all!

 

[TLS Guy]

God bless all!

You are obviously skeptical.

Here is the FR and impulse response at my MLP, all seven bedlayer speakers driven.

Not the impulse response. You are not going to get a near perfect impulse response scattering speakers all over the place. That matters, whether you want to believe it or not.

An integrated active main speaker. Dual transmission line with active BSC and inclusive of the the sub channel. Dual 7.5" mids and dual 100" bass speakers with Fs of 20 Hz.
Sub channel to both woofers and BSC correction if mids blended into feed to top woofer.

 

[Paul McNeil]

Yeah, I'm skeptical, nothing can defy physics, which dictates in room response. And, as I said before, I can't begin to interpret that data, with a differential of ~40db from top to bottom, and so smooth throughout. But that's a nice looking speaker, which you must have built yourself. I wish I had those skills.

 

[MrBoat]

Defy physics, at your risk. Most hear the room, not their ultra-accurate mains and subwoofers, in the bass region, wherever they sit. If you don't, you are blessed with a beautiful room.

Most are aligning themselves with tortured into realistic primary and secondary reflections, which often instead have an audible (even if in subconscious terms) reverb effect, as if listening inside of a rectangular box is a natural state.

I'm not defying physics. I merely am aware of how close I can get into the sound stage of my speakers before it falls apart without having to be effected by first reflections, and where all the rest of the unwanted effects after the fact end up and how to avoid it. Modern speakers are much more capable of this than they ever have been in the past, just what is possible with regard to BSC alone.

I also don't have to view a large screen from a predetermined distance vs visibility while trying to appease multiple seats. I only have to think of myself. As it is, I can damn near put my nose to the screen and never lose the center image or the rest of the soundstage. I never really thought much of it, until I had a friend sit here and I pointed out to her that even though it appeared that the sound was coming right from the mouth of the vocalist on the monitor, that the sound was actually coming from the two speakers beside her. She did not believe me, as if I were fooling with her and she got up to actually look behind the screen to see what trickery was going on back there.

Granted, not all speakers can do this that close. I have towers that I have to sit at least 8-9 ft. back from them to get the image I can from these monitor types point blank. I can see why people who have never really tried anything beyond HT or accepted trends would find this difficult, if not impossible, though. The other thing is my setup doesn't have to look like a poster child for what's passing as audio-fashionable these days.

 

[MrBoat]

The major beef I have with the sub bass management issue, is that the fundamental frequencies and harmonics are massively separated in time and therefore phase, which are two different ways of saying the same thing, These time shifts come not only form physical separation but crossover phase shifts. Sure you can fudge this from some degree with the set up distance measuring but only for one spot.

Therein lies the rub. I only have to be concerned with one spot, even though there is room for two or 3 people in it. As the only critical listener in this house, it would be foolish for me to waste so much time/expense and with added complication just for myself. Still, what music escapes into the rest of the room, still sounds worlds better to the unwashed stragglers that happen into it, than what they are hearing anywhere else. I tend to take this for granted until I leave the room for a spell and go outdoors, and notice it sounds pretty darn sweet coming from nothing, back into it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Therein lies the rub. I only have to be concerned with one spot, even though there is room for two or 3 people in it. As the only critical listener in this house, it would be foolish for me to waste so much time/expense and with added complication just for myself. Still, what music escapes into the rest of the room, still sounds worlds better to the unwashed stragglers that happen into it, than what they are hearing anywhere else. I tend to take this for granted until I leave the room for a spell and go outdoors, and notice it sounds pretty darn sweet coming from nothing, back into it.

If you have a coherent sound field or close, and a room with optimal dimension ratios, all seats will actually sound good. I am very happy with every seat in that room.

It is I admit a synergistic design between speakers and room.

As active speakers with DSP become more prevalent, and people will finally see that Ted Jordan was right, in that the harmonics of instruments should not be separated from their fundamentals.

Since we are talking physics, Ted was a brilliant mathematician and physicist.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yeah, I'm skeptical, nothing can defy physics, which dictates in room response. And, as I said before, I can't begin to interpret that data, with a differential of ~40db from top to bottom, and so smooth throughout. But that's a nice looking speaker, which you must have built yourself. I wish I had those skills.

What it shows is that there is some room gain below 30 Hz, but it is not unpleasant and sounds better than having it equalized out. There is a very smooth midband, and the HF is gently falling off as it would at that distance from the speakers. You NEVER want to equalize for that. As long as the speakers 1 meter response is excellent then you do need to let the room do what it will.

The impulse response shows really good coherence at the MLP with minimal time smear.