Not real happy with new sub

I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
My audio system is a Yamaha 100W Integrated Amp (about 8 yrs old w/Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct Buttons which bypass the bass/treble/loudness for "Pure" sound), Carver preamp, JBL L110 speakers.
I love the L110s because they have VERY realistic vocals/highs, good midrange but the bass is not nearly as defined as I would like.
So people in another forum suggested I get a sub and connect it to speaker level inputs in my Integrated Amp (in the main speaker outputs "A"). Guys in the other forum recommended the Monoprice sub.
(I know it sounds weird that I have an Integrated Amp AND a Preamp. I'm not sure why I bought the Preamp - I don't know much about audio even though I'm an engineer. But I love the Preamp because it has a Midrange control which comes in VERY handy.)
I bought a Monoprice 400W 12" sub (downfiring) and followed instructions to set it up. I have the volume of the sub turned to a little more than halfway and its low pass filter set to 60HZ. And sub is a few feet from the wall in-between the L110s in a room that is about 13 wide x 18 long x 7.5 high. The L110s are several feet from the wall and on stands about 1 ft above the floor.
The Monoprice sub is not well-defined at all, doesn't feel like it makes much of an improvement in the music and sounds very muddy.
I compared many subs online (and read many reviews) and the only subs I could really afford were the Monoprice or Klipsch or maybe a Velodyne sub (I'm on a VERY tight budget because I'm on disability.) I got the Monoprice sub for $250 new.
I listen to a lot of hard rock like Cream, Judas Priest, Sabbath, Robin Trower, Joe Satriani, ZZ Top, The Doors, Van Halen, Santana, Hendrix, etc. and the JBLs are hard-hitting, imo.
I've owned a lot of floorstanding speakers including JBL L100 (which were not nearly as good as L110), JBL L150 ($2000, which have the same dome tweeters as the L110), several Infinity models (which were too harsh), B&W (weak bass), basic Klipsch speakers, ADS, Polk and the L110 are the most realistic and best-sounding speakers I've had.
My PC Logitech 2.1 speakers have a 8" sub that is VERY well-defined, loud and sounds perfect (believe it or not) and the 2.1 speakers are tucked away on the very bottom shelf of my desk..The 2.1 bass sounds much better than my L110 bass!
What should I do to improve the bass in my system?
Someone in the other forum suggested a crossover w/sub ouptut but I don't know if I need that or not. ( https://www.parts-express.com/Rolls-SX45-Stereo-Two-Way-Mini-Crossover-w-Sub-Output-245-1184?quantity=1)
Shoud I look for a different sub? Did I connect the sub correctly to my Yamaha amp? What are my choices at this point? I'm stumped...
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What did you do to determine best placement for the sub? Too bad your gear (like much 2ch gear) doesn't have bass management, that might help. Your Logitech sub likely plays at higher frequencies, so it may be the frequency range you're listening to....why limit the low pass filter on the sub to 60? Have you tried higher?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
My audio system is a Yamaha 100W Integrated Amp (about 8 yrs old w/Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct Buttons which bypass the bass/treble/loudness for "Pure" sound), Carver preamp, JBL L110 speakers.
I love the L110s because they have VERY realistic vocals/highs, good midrange but the bass is not nearly as defined as I would like.
So people in another forum suggested I get a sub and connect it to speaker level inputs in my Integrated Amp (in the main speaker outputs "A"). Guys in the other forum recommended the Monoprice sub.
(I know it sounds weird that I have an Integrated Amp AND a Preamp. I'm not sure why I bought the Preamp - I don't know much about audio even though I'm an engineer. But I love the Preamp because it has a Midrange control which comes in VERY handy.)
I bought a Monoprice 400W 12" sub (downfiring) and followed instructions to set it up. I have the volume of the sub turned to a little more than halfway and its low pass filter set to 60HZ. And sub is a few feet from the wall in-between the L110s in a room that is about 13 wide x 18 long x 7.5 high. The L110s are several feet from the wall and on stands about 1 ft above the floor.
The Monoprice sub is not well-defined at all, doesn't feel like it makes much of an improvement in the music and sounds very muddy.
I compared many subs online (and read many reviews) and the only subs I could really afford were the Monoprice or Klipsch or maybe a Velodyne sub (I'm on a VERY tight budget because I'm on disability.) I got the Monoprice sub for $250 new.
I listen to a lot of hard rock like Cream, Judas Priest, Sabbath, Robin Trower, Joe Satriani, ZZ Top, The Doors, Van Halen, Santana, Hendrix, etc. and the JBLs are hard-hitting, imo.
I've owned a lot of floorstanding speakers including JBL L100 (which were not nearly as good as L110), JBL L150 ($2000, which have the same dome tweeters as the L110), several Infinity models (which were too harsh), B&W (weak bass), basic Klipsch speakers, ADS, Polk and the L110 are the most realistic and best-sounding speakers I've had.
My PC Logitech 2.1 speakers have a 8" sub that is VERY well-defined, loud and sounds perfect (believe it or not) and the 2.1 speakers are tucked away on the very bottom shelf of my desk..The 2.1 bass sounds much better than my L110 bass!
What should I do to improve the bass in my system?
Someone in the other forum suggested a crossover w/sub ouptut but I don't know if I need that or not. ( https://www.parts-express.com/Rolls-SX45-Stereo-Two-Way-Mini-Crossover-w-Sub-Output-245-1184?quantity=1)
Shoud I look for a different sub? Did I connect the sub correctly to my Yamaha amp? What are my choices at this point? I'm stumped...
Your system is irregular. That preamp to integrated makes no sense at all.

Your have no proper bass management. So you are adding a sub to full range speakers. So in effect you have a half section crossover and not a full section crossover. Sometimes this can work well, but sometimes it does not. In your case I suspect it does not.

So you are going to need a unit that has bass management to solve this I suspect, so that you can cut the low frequencies to the JBL and send them all to the sub. So you need a proper 0.1 channel I suspect.

I am actually familiar with those speakers, they used to be quite common. My opinion of them is that they are awful speakers. The bass sounded miss tuned for a start, and I suspect that is the root cause of the problem you are having now.

The mid range driver of those speakers is pretty typical of the "Squarker" designs.

Those speakers come from an era when American speakers were considered "amateur hour" designs. I think that is being generous to them.

Honestly I think your first step should be speaker shopping.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I listen to a lot of hard rock like Cream, Judas Priest, Sabbath, Robin Trower, Joe Satriani, ZZ Top, The Doors, Van Halen, Santana, Hendrix, etc. and the JBLs are hard-hitting, imo.
That music has very little in the way of sub bass. It was typically diminished so they could fit enough of the tracks on vinyl. Much of that music was never proven by subwoofers so any artifacts below say 30hz might instead be errors that the engineers had no reason to clean up since the monitors they were likely mixing with simply didn't reveal it. The star of that music is the mid bass punch, which is good on it's own, IMO. If your speakers are letting the kick drum and 40hz bass guitar notes thru with enough authority, you are pretty much there. Only thing else you could possibly need is functional tone controls for bass and treble and you may have to work them frequently between albums, or even some tracks.

The stars of 'most' of those groups were not the bassists other than some novel solos at live shows. Dusty Hill was certainly a star but he was a pretty conservative, purposeful player giving only what the songs needed. Of course there were exceptions but speakers that went no lower than say, 45hz, could resolve what those recording engineers intended.

Before getting too frustrated, try some modern music with quality and intentional low frequency content, such as modern jazz, reggae or electronic music. Most of the music you list was mostly about mid range/electric guitars/vocals forward and it's possible that muddy distorted sound you are hearing is just trash in the recording. Some later remixes of that era smoothed this out, if they/we were lucky.
 
Last edited:
I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
The stars of 'most' of those groups were not the bassists other than some novel solos at live shows.
why limit the low pass filter on the sub to 60? Have you tried higher?
So in effect you have a half section crossover and not a full section crossover.
So you are going to need a unit that has bass management to solve this I suspect, so that you can cut the low frequencies to the JBL and send them all to the sub. So you need a proper 0.1 channel I suspect.
The mid range driver of those speakers is pretty typical of the "Squarker" designs.
Honestly I think your first step should be speaker shopping.
Butler's bass in Sabbath was recorded really well, distinct and powerful. And the bass in Doors albums was very pronounced and powerful. Same goes with Santana's albums - all of the percussion was recorded extremely well. And the bass in all Rush albums was recorded extremely well - very well-defined and powerful.
(I have lots or remasters of Sabbath, Aerosmith, VH, Trower, Pink Floyd, etc. and I don't hear any difference between the remasters and the originals at all.)
(I have over 20 GB of rock music (mostly 320 kbps mp3's) on my PC and all of it sounds just FANTASTIC and clear thru my 2.1 Logitech sub and is VERY distinct and powerful. I can't figure out why I can't get well-defined bass in my home audio system!)
I figured I should set the sub LPF as low as it can go. I tried going lower and didn't hear a difference and I tried higher frequencies and 60HZ seemed like a decent setting.
I don't know what a unit with 0.1 channel means. Are you talking about an amp with 0.1 channel? I can't afford an expensive amp at all. (I've been on disability most of my life due to several severe disorders and money is very tight and I have much credit card debt. I'm not nearly in the position that you are in.)
I think the midrange on JBL110 is just fine, by far the best I've heard from any speaker I've owned!
And what speaker should I look at? I've tried tons of speakers with no luck. I can't afford expensive speakers! (I made a mistake by buying $2000 JBL L150 speakers and had to sell them because of my debt.)
Will that $100 crossover w/sub output which I posted a link to make a difference at all?
And something's wrong with my Yamaha Integrated Amp. When I turn off Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct buttons the bass/treble/loudness doesn't work at all. I called Yamaha support and they told me something has to be wrong internally with the amp because the bass/treble/loudness should work with these buttons turned off.
Like I said, I DON'T know why I added a Preamp to my Integrated Amp. I know NOTHING about audio (and I have a mechanical engineering degree - I had to study real hard to pass Electrical Engineering 101). I just know that the Carver Preamp has a Midrange control which is very handy to have.
I don't know where to start! Buying a different sub won't make a difference? Or adding a crossover unit to my integrated amp? I can't put any money into other amps and speakers at all. My money is stretched to its max.
 
Last edited:
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Butler's bass in Sabbath was recorded really well, distinct and powerful. And the bass in Doors albums was very pronounced and powerful. Same goes with Santana's albums - all of the percussion was recorded extremely well. And the bass in all Rush albums was recorded extremely well - very well-defined and powerful.
If it was so very distinct and powerful, than you would not have needed to be curious of subs. :)

I have 3 pairs of JBL 3-way speakers and they really need no help with that music and I kind of prefer it that way. Even with speakers that go no lower than say. . .45hz.

Didn't say it was recorded badly, it was just recorded adequately for the broad range of systems it would pass thru that weren't nearly as evolved as they are now. I can and do get by without subs with classic rock or may turn them way down for it because anything in the way of rumble sounds out of place to me there.

I would just never set up a system with subs based on that music alone and definitely not condemn a sub based on it. There is some really clean modern music and it is worth doing just for what it brings to modern, and even vintage equipment.

I still have most, if not all of those popular records from that era and on CD as well and ripped to my PC.
 
I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
The stars of 'most' of those groups were not the bassists other than some novel solos at live shows.
If it was so very distinct and powerful, than you would not have needed to be curious of subs.
I have 3 pairs of JBL 3-way speakers and they really need no help with that music
All that music has distinct and powerful bass because my PC 2.1 speakers (which I found out are 200-400W THX® certification. Attached is photo) can reproduce that powerful bass with no problem (w/320kbps mp3's, nonetheless!).
And I can't get that sound with my audio system? (I know my L110 or only like 75W each.)
What kind of JBL 3-ways do you have? Are they modern speakers or vintage? I looked at JBL 3-way speakers at Crutchfield and they are not cheap at all! The JBL 3-way floorstanding speakers start at like $600 each (w/6.5" woofers and 200W power handling) and the 3-way JBL 3-way bookshelf speakers are $2000-$5000/pr!
I don't have that money!
I might be able to afford JBL 3-way speakers that start at $600 each. But can those 6.5" woofers produce deep, well-defined bass?
I had B&W 3-way floorstanding speakers with 6.5" woofers and they produced bass that could barely be heard. And I had older Infinity 3-way floorstanding speakers with 10" or 12" woofers and they did not produce the best bass, either. (One pair of Infinity I had could rumble the floor with the bass but the tweeters were much too harsh.)
I don't know what type of speakers I should look for.
And if I bought a pr. of 200W speakers how powerful would my amp have to be? 400W amp? That would cost a lot of money!
 

Attachments

Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
All that music has distinct and powerful bass because my PC 2.1 speakers (which I found out are 200-400W THX® certification. Attached is photo) can reproduce that powerful bass with no problem (w/320kbps mp3's, nonetheless!).
And I can't get that sound with my audio system? (I know my L110 or only like 75W each.)
What kind of JBL 3-ways do you have? Are they modern speakers or vintage? I looked at JBL 3-way speakers at Crutchfield and they are not cheap at all! The JBL 3-way floorstanding speakers start at like $600 each (w/6.5" woofers and 200W power handling) and the 3-way JBL 3-way bookshelf speakers are $2000-$5000/pr!
I don't have that money!
I might be able to afford JBL 3-way speakers that start at $600 each. But can those 6.5" woofers produce deep, well-defined bass?
I had B&W 3-way floorstanding speakers with 6.5" woofers and they produced bass that could barely be heard. And I had older Infinity 3-way floorstanding speakers with 10" or 12" woofers and they did not produce the best bass, either. (One pair of Infinity I had could rumble the floor with the bass but the tweeters were much too harsh.)
I don't know what type of speakers I should look for.
And if I bought a pr. of 200W speakers how powerful would my amp have to be? 400W amp? That would cost a lot of money!
What is your preamp and amp? Your only solution is to figure out a way to get bass management. There is no way you will get the results you are looking for without bass management, with the speakers you have.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
All that music has distinct and powerful bass because my PC 2.1 speakers (which I found out are 200-400W THX® certification. Attached is photo) can reproduce that powerful bass with no problem (w/320kbps mp3's, nonetheless!).
And I can't get that sound with my audio system? (I know my L110 or only like 75W each.)
What kind of JBL 3-ways do you have? Are they modern speakers or vintage? I looked at JBL 3-way speakers at Crutchfield and they are not cheap at all! The JBL 3-way floorstanding speakers start at like $600 each (w/6.5" woofers and 200W power handling) and the 3-way JBL 3-way bookshelf speakers are $2000-$5000/pr!
I don't have that money!
I might be able to afford JBL 3-way speakers that start at $600 each. But can those 6.5" woofers produce deep, well-defined bass?
I had B&W 3-way floorstanding speakers with 6.5" woofers and they produced bass that could barely be heard. And I had older Infinity 3-way floorstanding speakers with 10" or 12" woofers and they did not produce the best bass, either. (One pair of Infinity I had could rumble the floor with the bass but the tweeters were much too harsh.)
I don't know what type of speakers I should look for.
And if I bought a pr. of 200W speakers how powerful would my amp have to be? 400W amp? That would cost a lot of money!
Don't buy anymore stuff until you figure out the room.

At this point, buying more stuff is likely not the right answer and could be just throwing good money after bad until you figure out the room. That size room with it's low ceilings is a bit stuffy for sub bass so I would try turning it down. The reason the desk 2.1 sounds better is likely because it's much smaller and matches that size room better. The other thing is your PC 2.1 system will sound much different when listening at the desk compared to the rest of the room. My desk top setup is optimized for near field listening but that can be too much bass for the rest of the room when I get rambunctious.

I prefer near field desktop style listening in less than optimal living rooms.

My subs aren't nearly at half power. More like 1/6 at most and often times I need less than that with a room that's a bit larger than yours and my room definitely needs bass management. I have tried running sub and speakers without it and it was ok, but not great and not worth doing that way.

I'm the only hi-fi head in this house so I only have to think of myself. I set even my large speakers (the ones behind the JBLs) up close in a more studio arrangement. I have two sofas and other furniture/clutter in the room that also helps. The subs in my case, are behind these speakers and is the only place I can keep them when other people are living here. Currently I am listening to the JBL S38ii. I have 9 other pairs of speakers I listen to in rotation. Each needs to be used with the subs differently. I could not do it effectively without bass management and DSP.

 
I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
What is your preamp and amp?
Your only solution is to figure out a way to get bass management. There is no way you will get the results you are looking for without bass management, with the speakers you have.
That size room with it's low ceilings is a bit stuffy for sub bass so I would try turning it down.
Have a Yamaha AX-596 100W amp and Carver Preamp.
I never heard of "Bass management" before until now.
I know my ceilings are low so I thought maybe a 10" or 8" sub would suffice but I decided on a 12".
I'm not buying anymore audio stuff until I figure out what's best to get the bass I want. And realistic vocals are a must-have for me and L110 are the only speakers I've owned that produced that.
In fact, I can easily sell my JBL L110s (for $700) and Carver Preamp (for $200) and I'll try to sell the Monoprice 12" sub (but it's going to be HARD because shipping is going to cost a fortune - it weighs a TON and I'm going to have to take a loss).
But I'll need a new amp, too. Probably a more powerful amp if I want to buy 3-way 200W speakers.
My Integrated amp must be broken like I said because when the Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct buttons are Off the bass/treble/loudness do not work at all. (I could never get them to work and I bought the amp "New".)
Yamaha support said something must be wrong internally with the amp because the bass/treble/loudness should work with those Direct buttons turned Off. Attached is a photo of the Yamaha amp and you can see the Direct buttons at the top.)
My money is very tight and I'm also looking at several expensive classical guitars around $2000. So I really shouldn't be buying ANYTHING with my finances but nothing's going to stop me because Music is the only thing that gives me pleasure...
(I've had a bunch of severe disorders the last 45 years, haven't been able to do anything the last 20 yrs and developed anhedonia really bad and lost interest in everything last 20 yrs except for Music, thank God. And no stupid professional or hospital from Philly to Baltimore has been able to help me the last 35 yrs!)
Sorry for all the bitching!!! But I've been extremely frustrated with my life and didn't accomplish a damn thing I ever wanted to since I was 13 yrs old when I became very sick. I managed to get an engineering degree somehow! (I was very sick in school and hated Penn State with a passion and even had a nervous breakdown at PSU but went back and finished school) and I got accepted to UNC School of Music but got interested in engineering.
Thanks for listening and your help. I appreciate it very, very much!
 

Attachments

Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Have a Yamaha AX-596 100W amp and Carver Preamp.
I never heard of "Bass management" before until now.
I know my ceilings are low so I thought maybe a 10" or 8" sub would suffice but I decided on a 12".
I'm not buying anymore audio stuff until I figure out what's best to get the bass I want. And realistic vocals are a must-have for me and L110 are the only speakers I've owned that produced that.
In fact, I can easily sell my JBL L110s (for $700) and Carver Preamp (for $200) and I'll try to sell the Monoprice 12" sub (but it's going to be HARD because shipping is going to cost a fortune - it weighs a TON and I'm going to have to take a loss).
But I'll need a new amp, too. Probably a more powerful amp if I want to buy 3-way 200W speakers.
My Integrated amp must be broken like I said because when the Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct buttons are Off the bass/treble/loudness do not work at all. (I could never get them to work and I bought the amp "New".)
Yamaha support said something must be wrong internally with the amp because the bass/treble/loudness should work with those Direct buttons turned Off. Attached is a photo of the Yamaha amp and you can see the Direct buttons at the top.)
My money is very tight and I'm also looking at several expensive classical guitars around $2000. So I really shouldn't be buying ANYTHING with my finances but nothing's going to stop me because Music is the only thing that gives me pleasure...
(I've had a bunch of severe disorders the last 45 years, haven't been able to do anything the last 20 yrs and developed anhedonia really bad and lost interest in everything last 20 yrs except for Music, thank God. And no stupid professional or hospital from Philly to Baltimore has been able to help me the last 35 yrs!)
Sorry for all the bitching!!! But I've been extremely frustrated with my life and didn't accomplish a damn thing I ever wanted to since I was 13 yrs old when I became very sick. I managed to get an engineering degree somehow! (I was very sick in school and hated Penn State with a passion and even had a nervous breakdown at PSU but went back and finished school) and I got accepted to UNC School of Music but got interested in engineering.
Thanks for listening and your help. I appreciate it very, very much!
Lots to cover here. First off, you don't need the Carver pre-amp. The Yamaha will do everything you need. To use the Carver with the Yamaha, you would need to remove the rear jumpers under Coupler labeled Pre-Out and Main-In and feed the Carver into the Main-In. That completely bypasses the pre-amp in the Yamaha so you loose all functionality of the tone controls and inputs. The Yamaha just acts as a straight amp then.

Disconnect the Carver, insert the jumpers back into Pre-Out and Main-In and connect your devices to the inputs on the Yamaha. Your tone controls and Pure Direct switch will now function as they should.

For your bass dilemma, you have 3 things to control
  1. Position of the cabinet,
  2. Crossover frequency,
  3. Relative volume level.
With a single sub, most rooms will have nulls or dead spots at certain frequencies. Where you place the subwoofer can affect that. Moving the sub to different locations can affect how it sounds.

I also listen to a lot of classic rock and there is not a lot of deep bass content. I think your crossover frequency is set too low at 60Hz. If you want the sub to cover any of the mid-bass, you need to set it higher: at least 80Hz if not 100Hz. You can even try 120Hz but that is typically as high as most subs will adjust to (what model Monoprice did you get?). Since you do not have bass management, this will be a trial and error setting. Adjust the crossover to what works best to your taste.

Lastly, you need to volume match the subwoofer to your speakers. That is the level control on the subwoofer. Start at the mid point and adjust the volume up and down until you find the right balance. There may also be a phases switch or control you can adjust but these have less of an effect.

So disconnect the Carver, try just the Yamaha by itself and adjust the tone controls on the Yamaha and the crossover and level controls on the sub until you find a happy setting.

Lastly, the Logitech is not a true subwoofer in the strict sense of the word. It uses 2 satellite speakers and a bass cabinet. The bass cabinet with PC speakers have a much higher crossover frequency then stand alone subs like the Monoprice. The Logitech bass cabinet likely reaches up to 200 or 300 Hz so it produces a lot of mid bass that the satellites can not, so it will sound quite different from your stereo set up.
 
I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
This is good info I got from a review of this Monoprice sub:
"You can also use an external crossover for additional control over the subwoofer’s parameters.
The pricey JL Audio F-112 sub can get down to 20 Hz, but the SW-12’s lower limit is 33 Hz, which will not get you the lowest notes on an organ.
I began listening to a track at a pretty robust level, and by the middle, the SW-12 began to emphasize its upper-range issues (between 50 and 80 Hz)—so the character of the bass changed somewhat, sounding less controlled.
Polk Audio’s PSW111 subwoofer sells for a similar price as the SW-12 but has a smaller woofer. It gets down to only 40 Hz and uses cheaper spring clips (instead of five-way binding posts) for the speaker-level inputs. The PSW10 weighs half as much as the SW-12 and has 1% distortion at its rated output.
Compared to my reference JL Audio Dominion D-10 subwoofer in the same system, the SW-12 created more upper-frequency resonances from its cabinet.
I tested the SW-12 in two ways. First I used its own internal crossover. Later I turned the SW-12’s crossover control up to its maximum of 150 Hz and used JL Audio’s CR-1 external crossover set at 65 .Using the JL crossover, I could choose a 24-dB-per-octave slope, which gave the SW-12 a tighter, more controlled response. It still did not go any lower, but the 24-dB crossover cleaned up some of the excess upper-bass energy and let the SW-12 play slightly louder without distress. I further improved the SW-12’s overall performance by turning up the bass-damping control on the CR-1 crossover."

This is what I got from the Monoprice review:
Some issues: (1) Upper-frequency resonances from the cabinet. (2) Listening to a track at a pretty robust level level: upper-range issues sounding less controlled. (3) Using an JL Audio’s CR-1external crossover w/the Monoprice: the 24-dB crossover cleaned up some of the excess upper-bass energy and let the SW-12 play slightly louder without distress. Further improved the SW-12’s overall performance by turning up the bass-damping control on the CR-1 crossover."

Summary: Should I bother getting an external crossover since the Monoprice sub has a fixed 18-dB-per-octave crossover slope?
Should I consider a smaller sub, say a 8" sub?
Or should I not even bother with subwoofers and buy decent 3-way speakers like MRBoat discussed above? Will high-quality 3-way speakers w/6.5" woofers produce deep, powerful bass that I'm looking for?
I also listen to a lot of classic rock and there is not a lot of deep bass content. So disconnect the Carver, try just the Yamaha by itself and adjust the tone controls on the Yamaha and the crossover and level controls on the sub until you find a happy setting.
I don't agree at all that classic/hard rock doesn't have deep bass content because I can plainly hear WELL-defined, powerful bass w/my 2.1 PC speakers using mp3's. And I had a fantastic car audio system few yrs ago with 4 audiophile ADS 6.5" woofers w/superb smooth, realistic tweeters w/crossovers (shown in attached photo), 2 Kicker subs and 3 amps in my car and had the best sound system ever! (I'm not sure if I overloaded my car battery with all of the amps I was using but I don't know much about electronics. So I bought the most powerful car battery that I could find for my Pontiac Sunfire.)
Today I'll disconnect my preamp and experiment with sub settings with my Yamaha Integrated amp.
I still have to read up on "Bass Management" because I never heard of it before and I'll do that today.
Thanks a lot for your feedback, it really helped me! - Rob
 

Attachments

K

kini

Full Audioholic
"JL Audio Dominion D-10 subwoofer" if you have this why did you buy a another sub?

As for "deep" bass, as you've been informed, there is little to none in the music you listen to. Download a free spectrum analyzer for your phone. You'll be surprised. I thought some of the music I listen to had deep bass when in fact it rarely ever dipped below 40hz, and it's music that has deeper bass than what your are listening to.

Your PC setup probably doesn't have any usable output below 80hz, so that is what you're hearing. Not deep at all.

You should have plenty of bass output with just the speakers. Try setting it up with the speakers and sub both getting full range signal (no crossover) and listen. Might make a difference.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Should I consider a smaller sub, say a 8" sub?
Or should I not even bother with subwoofers and buy decent 3-way speakers like MRBoat discussed above? Will high-quality 3-way speakers w/6.5" woofers produce deep, powerful bass that I'm looking for?
To be clear, I use subs with all but my bedroom system. The 2-way DIY kit speakers I have in that bedroom go into the 30s. I am using a pair of 12" subs with the 2 JBLs pictured a few posts back but those JBL speakers really rock classic rock just fine on their own and really have the perfect amount of chest slam, much like the live shows I attended back in the day had, and emulate the systems we used to try and match that experience with as well. It's half of what made me such a fan of JBL and later, some of their more budget oriented designs that perform above their price point, at least if I don't get all wrapped up around my own audiophile axle.

Mostly I have subs now because I listen to a lot more recent music beside that. I mean, between the radio stations and their incessant top 40 repeats, and having to revisit classic rock each time a new rock trend that I hated came out, I needed something else. So now it's jazz, reggae/dub and electronic music that gets a lot more play because it is essentially new to me and I don't have to live in that perpetual state of top 40 anymore. Possibly the best reason for streaming for my use.

I get on a classic rock bender enough, though. Love Deep Purple, Def Leppard and Molly Hatchet, Judas Priest, Boston, Kansas, Rush and of course blues.

What helped me was, I was not in a hurry to get the subs just so. I farted around with them for months trying all the settings and combinations. Best hint came from @TLS Guy mentioning what filters should be used for sealed subs etc., and he was right, at least for what I was after. I had pretty much arrived there by ear, but that info certainly could have saved me a lot of trial and error.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I have owned cars with subwoofers as well and have PC speakers with subwoofers but I still think it is mid bass that you crave. Think about electric bass. The range of a 4 string bass is about 40Hz to 400Hz (41 to 311 more precisely). If you have the subwoofer crossover at 60Hz you get the first few low notes on a 4 string bass and little more. Kick drums also have most of their energy in the mid bass (80 to 200Hz); maybe as low as a 60Hz fundamental but you have to take the harmonics into account. Subwoofers really come into play when you get into 5 string bass or low synthesizer notes, unless you use a higher crossover frequency. I still recommend that you turn it up to 100Hz and adjust the level setting.

Bass management is basically when a pre-amp or receiver has a built in adjustable crossover and a subwoofer output. You turn up the crossover on the subwoofer all the way up and then let your pre-amp / receiver perform the crossover duty, sending just the low bass to the subwoofer and highpassing the rest of the audio to your main speakers. Some units let you bypass the highpass function and still send a full range signal to the main speakers. Modern audio video receivers (AVRs) come with a measurement microphone and will send test tones to set the various speaker levels, crossover points and EQ (termed "room correction"). As your Yamaha has no subwoofer pre-out, your speakers will get the full range signal and you are doubling up on the bass. That can make proper integration tricky as the bass response between the sub and speakers overlaps.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Another vote for a different range of bass involved with OP with the logitech set. Also probably more distortion with those. Overall I don't find my favorite rock from my youth (60s-80s for the most part) to have a lot of deep bass except maybe as an exception here and there with some synths and subs only do so much as a result with such. I would rather have the capability of deep bass for content that has it in any case, tho.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Have a Yamaha AX-596 100W amp and Carver Preamp.
I never heard of "Bass management" before until now.
I know my ceilings are low so I thought maybe a 10" or 8" sub would suffice but I decided on a 12".
I'm not buying anymore audio stuff until I figure out what's best to get the bass I want. And realistic vocals are a must-have for me and L110 are the only speakers I've owned that produced that.
In fact, I can easily sell my JBL L110s (for $700) and Carver Preamp (for $200) and I'll try to sell the Monoprice 12" sub (but it's going to be HARD because shipping is going to cost a fortune - it weighs a TON and I'm going to have to take a loss).
But I'll need a new amp, too. Probably a more powerful amp if I want to buy 3-way 200W speakers.
My Integrated amp must be broken like I said because when the Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct buttons are Off the bass/treble/loudness do not work at all. (I could never get them to work and I bought the amp "New".)
Yamaha support said something must be wrong internally with the amp because the bass/treble/loudness should work with those Direct buttons turned Off. Attached is a photo of the Yamaha amp and you can see the Direct buttons at the top.)
My money is very tight and I'm also looking at several expensive classical guitars around $2000. So I really shouldn't be buying ANYTHING with my finances but nothing's going to stop me because Music is the only thing that gives me pleasure...
(I've had a bunch of severe disorders the last 45 years, haven't been able to do anything the last 20 yrs and developed anhedonia really bad and lost interest in everything last 20 yrs except for Music, thank God. And no stupid professional or hospital from Philly to Baltimore has been able to help me the last 35 yrs!)
Sorry for all the bitching!!! But I've been extremely frustrated with my life and didn't accomplish a damn thing I ever wanted to since I was 13 yrs old when I became very sick. I managed to get an engineering degree somehow! (I was very sick in school and hated Penn State with a passion and even had a nervous breakdown at PSU but went back and finished school) and I got accepted to UNC School of Music but got interested in engineering.
Thanks for listening and your help. I appreciate it very, very much!
Have a Yamaha AX-596 100W amp and Carver Preamp.
I never heard of "Bass management" before until now.
I know my ceilings are low so I thought maybe a 10" or 8" sub would suffice but I decided on a 12".
I'm not buying anymore audio stuff until I figure out what's best to get the bass I want. And realistic vocals are a must-have for me and L110 are the only speakers I've owned that produced that.
In fact, I can easily sell my JBL L110s (for $700) and Carver Preamp (for $200) and I'll try to sell the Monoprice 12" sub (but it's going to be HARD because shipping is going to cost a fortune - it weighs a TON and I'm going to have to take a loss).
But I'll need a new amp, too. Probably a more powerful amp if I want to buy 3-way 200W speakers.
My Integrated amp must be broken like I said because when the Pure Direct and CD/DVD Direct buttons are Off the bass/treble/loudness do not work at all. (I could never get them to work and I bought the amp "New".)
Yamaha support said something must be wrong internally with the amp because the bass/treble/loudness should work with those Direct buttons turned Off. Attached is a photo of the Yamaha amp and you can see the Direct buttons at the top.)
My money is very tight and I'm also looking at several expensive classical guitars around $2000. So I really shouldn't be buying ANYTHING with my finances but nothing's going to stop me because Music is the only thing that gives me pleasure...
(I've had a bunch of severe disorders the last 45 years, haven't been able to do anything the last 20 yrs and developed anhedonia really bad and lost interest in everything last 20 yrs except for Music, thank God. And no stupid professional or hospital from Philly to Baltimore has been able to help me the last 35 yrs!)
Sorry for all the bitching!!! But I've been extremely frustrated with my life and didn't accomplish a damn thing I ever wanted to since I was 13 yrs old when I became very sick. I managed to get an engineering degree somehow! (I was very sick in school and hated Penn State with a passion and even had a nervous breakdown at PSU but went back and finished school) and I got accepted to UNC School of Music but got interested in engineering.
Thanks for listening and your help. I appreciate it very, very much!
This is good info I got from a review of this Monoprice sub:
"You can also use an external crossover for additional control over the subwoofer’s parameters.
The pricey JL Audio F-112 sub can get down to 20 Hz, but the SW-12’s lower limit is 33 Hz, which will not get you the lowest notes on an organ.
I began listening to a track at a pretty robust level, and by the middle, the SW-12 began to emphasize its upper-range issues (between 50 and 80 Hz)—so the character of the bass changed somewhat, sounding less controlled.
Polk Audio’s PSW111 subwoofer sells for a similar price as the SW-12 but has a smaller woofer. It gets down to only 40 Hz and uses cheaper spring clips (instead of five-way binding posts) for the speaker-level inputs. The PSW10 weighs half as much as the SW-12 and has 1% distortion at its rated output.
Compared to my reference JL Audio Dominion D-10 subwoofer in the same system, the SW-12 created more upper-frequency resonances from its cabinet.
I tested the SW-12 in two ways. First I used its own internal crossover. Later I turned the SW-12’s crossover control up to its maximum of 150 Hz and used JL Audio’s CR-1 external crossover set at 65 .Using the JL crossover, I could choose a 24-dB-per-octave slope, which gave the SW-12 a tighter, more controlled response. It still did not go any lower, but the 24-dB crossover cleaned up some of the excess upper-bass energy and let the SW-12 play slightly louder without distress. I further improved the SW-12’s overall performance by turning up the bass-damping control on the CR-1 crossover."

This is what I got from the Monoprice review:
Some issues: (1) Upper-frequency resonances from the cabinet. (2) Listening to a track at a pretty robust level level: upper-range issues sounding less controlled. (3) Using an JL Audio’s CR-1external crossover w/the Monoprice: the 24-dB crossover cleaned up some of the excess upper-bass energy and let the SW-12 play slightly louder without distress. Further improved the SW-12’s overall performance by turning up the bass-damping control on the CR-1 crossover."

Summary: Should I bother getting an external crossover since the Monoprice sub has a fixed 18-dB-per-octave crossover slope?
Should I consider a smaller sub, say a 8" sub?
Or should I not even bother with subwoofers and buy decent 3-way speakers like MRBoat discussed above? Will high-quality 3-way speakers w/6.5" woofers produce deep, powerful bass that I'm looking for?

I don't agree at all that classic/hard rock doesn't have deep bass content because I can plainly hear WELL-defined, powerful bass w/my 2.1 PC speakers using mp3's. And I had a fantastic car audio system few yrs ago with 4 audiophile ADS 6.5" woofers w/superb smooth, realistic tweeters w/crossovers (shown in attached photo), 2 Kicker subs and 3 amps in my car and had the best sound system ever! (I'm not sure if I overloaded my car battery with all of the amps I was using but I don't know much about electronics. So I bought the most powerful car battery that I could find for my Pontiac Sunfire.)
Today I'll disconnect my preamp and experiment with sub settings with my Yamaha Integrated amp.
I still have to read up on "Bass Management" because I never heard of it before and I'll do that today.
Thanks a lot for your feedback, it really helped me! - Rob
In your situation bass management is very important.

Very few cone type speakers were much good before the mid to late eighties.

The reason is they could not be tuned except by guess work.

The first speaker to use the work of Thiele and Small was released by KEF in 1973.

This all goes back to dear old Gilbert Briggs the founder of Wharfedale at Bridle Yorkshire, and huge promoter of audio and speaker building in particular. He was not an engineer by trade, but a really good classical pianist. So he had a good ear for the right sound. Even so it was all trial and error. The books he wrote and his columns were devoured by many, including me as a kid, and he really got me started. He knew that for reflex speakers (ported) it was all trial and error, and actually largely error.

GAB was always a charming and very funny fellow. I remember in one question and answer column that a builder was frustrated as the speaker he had built sounded better with the back off. GAB told him to leave the back off, as "there was no point in nailing down the coffin!"

Anyhow, he eventually hired an engineer, one Raymond E. Cooke to help design the speakers.

After a while Raymond Cooke wanted his own company. GAB always generous to a fault, encouraged and helped him.

Raymond Cooke, found a ruined foundry on the banks of the river Medway, at Tovil in the county of Kent, about 15 miles from where I grew up.
Raymond found an old casing at the site with the letters KEF, which stood for Kent Engineering Foundry, and KEF was born.

Raymond worked with two engineers, who were doing early work to understand the correct loading of speakers in the bass. Raymond Small in Australia and Neville Thiele in California.

One of the things that spurred all this, was that Peter Walker of Quad in Huntingdon Cambridge had produced the world's first tonally accurate loudspeaker, the Quad ESL 57.



When introduced at the Audio Fair of 1957 at the Hotel Russell it took the audio world by storm and sent shock waves through the burgeoning loudspeaker industry.

This literally was the catalyst for research into the improvement of moving coil cone type speakers.

Raymond Small published early work in 1961, and then collaborated with Neville Thiele in California. Raymond Cooke was aware of this pivotal work right from the start and funded it. Thiele and Small were brought in house at Tovil for a period of time.

In 1973 KEF produced the world's first speaker with drivers and enclosure using the work of Thiel and Small. Progress was rapid from that point on.
In the UK at that time the industry was very collegial and "open book". Between the speaker manufacturers and amplifier designers, the Golden Age" of British Audio was born, which the UK audio industry was dominant for at least 15 to 20 years.

In America all this was slow to catch on. JBL did not design a speakers using Thiele and Small's work until 1981.

This is pivotal, as it means any JBL speaker built before 1981 is going to mistuned in the bass. You are not going to get it right by chance.

Your speakers were made by JBL before 1981. JBL never did produce frequency response or meaningful measurements of your speakers. However the admen printed sales literature, and spilled a lot of ink trying to explain how measurements were misleading and of no value!

So this is a long way round of saying that your speakers are mistuned, they can't avoid being. This mistuning is going to occur and made worse by your sub, where your speakers and your sub overlap. You can worry about your room, but it won't change this fundamental problem.

This leaves you with two choices to solve you problem.

1). You can update your speakers to improved modern ones.

2). You can obtain electronics that will give you bass management and cut the low frequencies before the area of mistuning and let the sub reproduce them, which is hopefully not mistuned. Nothing else will solve your problem. You have two options, and only two, if you want to improve your situation.
 
Last edited:
I

ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
but I still think it is mid bass that you crave.
"JL Audio Dominion D-10 subwoofer" if you have this why did you buy a another sub?
1). You can update your speakers to improved modern ones.
2). You can obtain electronics that will give you bass management and cut the low frequencies before the area of mistuning and let the sub reproduce them, which is hopefully not mistuned. Nothing else will solve your problem. You have two options, and only two, if you want to improve your situation.
You're probably right about the mid-bass. I don't listen to anything that goes down to 30HZ (ie. organ, like the guy in the Monoprice review mentioned above.)
I never owned a JL Audio Dominion Sub. In the good review I read the guy compared his JL Audio sub to the Monoprice 12" sub and noted cabinet resonance with the Monoprice sub. There were several issues with the Monoprice sub in the review which I listed.
I think the Monoprice 12" sub is too big for my room (and it is downfiring which I don't know is the best choice). My ceiling is 7.5 ft high (and 13' wide x 18 'long). Maybe I should get a good 8" or 10" sub with a good crossover? I saw a Bowers & WIlkins ASW608 8" sub 200W around $400 which had good reviews or I can afford a Klipsch 8" or maybe another 8" sub. (My PC Logitech sub is 12" and fills up the room with no problem at all and absolutely love listening to my PC speakers. I have 20 GB hard rock and 20 GB Classical music on my PC.)
Or should I forget about subs and get good 3-way speakers? I can afford $1500 speakers for a pair. I looked at JBL Studio 690 3-way w/6.5 woofers but I don't know if that will give me good mid- or deep bass. (My B&W 3-way speakers w/two 6.5" woofers (and drove to NYC to buy them) had NO bass at all and I was shocked so I sold them.)
Last night I also read lots of FANTASTIC reviews for Cerwin Vega XLS 3-way tower speakers with dual 8" or 10" woofers and they are VERY affordable. They also might be too big for my room. I think a 3-way w/8" woofer would suit my room fine.
I put my Monoprice sub up for sale.
And I read all about Bass Management (which I understood when I put my car audio system together 15 yrs ago.)
If I get 3-way speakers I'm going to need a better, more powerful amp and I have no idea what amps to look at. They are going to be expensive I bet.
Thanks a lot for hanging in there with me. I'm not the brightest guy in the world. (And I'm not the happiest because I have severel severe disorders, taken every med the last 35 yrs which hasn't helped and had shock treatment 37 times which destroyed my energy and can barely do anything with my days anymore. Music's the only thing I enjoy.)
 
Last edited:
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
@ifsixwasnin9 I believe the 690 is 2.5 way design. I bet they would work great with your existing Yamaha. (Forum member @Danzilla31 owned a pair of 698 and is another "bass head". ;) He could give an honest opinion on the bass performance of the 698.) It is very good value for the money as it uses some technology from the higher end JBL HDI line and looks very similar. You might find it interesting that TLS Guy thinks that the 2.5 way design of the 690 is better than the 3 way design of the 698, and the 690 is $100 cheaper.

While your Yamaha does not have bass management, it does have bass, treble and loudness which a lot of modern gear lacks. Something with bass management and room correction software also often requires a TV to navigate the menus, so if you want bass management without video support the choices get limited. If you're thinking of upgrading your amp later I suggest you get some recommendations here on the forums.

Downfiring sub is not necessarily bad. My first sub was downfiring and my current one fires forward. Have you tried turning up the crossover on the Monoprice as suggested and playing with the levels?

If you sell the Monoprice, you may find something like the 690 would work fine without a sub. JBL rates the 690 down to 36Hz so it's a pretty full range speaker. If you still want a sub I would state your budget and get opinions here. There are fewer options available at the cheaper end of the spectrum but there are some decent performing subs that don't cost a fortune. The really good ones start at about $800 like the RSL Speedwoofer 12s. Here is an article on subs in the $500 range:
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/best-500-subwoofers-2023
Erin's Audio Corner looked at some cheaper subs a couple of years ago (in the $250 range):

Given the age of your current JBL speakers, though, I would recommend considering an upgrade. TLS Guy is one of the most experienced with vintage gear and his analysis is usually spot on. If you're patient, JBL is known to have some really good discounts on occasion so you might find a pair on sale.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top