Older AVR vs. New Integrated Amp

S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
Hi All,

First time poster! I currently have an 11 yr-old Denon AVR (AVR-2313CI), which has treated me well. I was curious what the opinion of the group is regarding using this AVR to power a new set of Lintons vs. getting a new Audiolab 7000A or Marantz 40n? The Denon claims 135w into 8 but i'm guessing both the Audiolab and Marantz newer models would perform just as well from a power delivery perspective. Its kind of hard finding objective information on why you can easily find a 100+ watt AVR for MUCH cheaper than a 70 watt integrated but thats probably a whole separate topic.

Looking for opinions on whether the Audiolab, Marantz or other options in that price range would result in a pretty clear upgrade in sound quality at all listening levels driving the Lintons.

of note perhaps: i'm a Rock music guy from Pink Floyd through Tool and will be listening mostly thru CDs in a medium/large room. Trying to keep wires to a minimum for simplicity purposes and to keep my wife from doing too much complaining about my "junk".

Thanks!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If the Denon is functioning well no need to change it out. Plus you get bass management, something most integrated amps don't have. You generally pay more for integrateds (and usually for less power) because they're a smaller piece of the market, economies of scale etc. and the amp sections are often not really different from the brand's avr offerings.
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
Thanks, guys! Would it make sense to instead buy something like an Eversolo DMP-A8 to use as a preamp/dac/streamer and repurpose the Denon as a power amp in that case? Then if i find i could benefit from more power down the line i can buy a dedicated power amp at that point.
 
mono-bloc

mono-bloc

Full Audioholic
Don't waste your money, If the denon is working fine , why change it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks, guys! Would it make sense to instead buy something like an Eversolo DMP-A8 to use as a preamp/dac/streamer and repurpose the Denon as a power amp in that case? Then if i find i could benefit from more power down the line i can buy a dedicated power amp at that point.
I'd get a Wiim Pro Plus perhaps, that Eversolo unit is a bit pricey for what it is. The dac in the Denon is fine, tho. Your Denon isn't really setup to be used as a power amp (Denons with the set of "ext.in" inputs were more suited to such purpose).
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
was more of a question of whether i'm missing out on newer/more expensive tech yielding a better listening experience since i haven't listened to a different amp in ~12 years. Everyone's responses are similar to what i expected but it does have me scratching my head about why the AVRs kinda get crapped on for being unnecessarily packed with tech and electronics that somehow negatively affect the quality of 2-channel listening. If all things are relatively equal (or not audible to the human ear) then why so many products in the $2k range, let alone the $10k+ range? Why a Hegel instead of a Sony, for example? Why a "Masters Series" instead of the Best Buy variety?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
was more of a question of whether i'm missing out on newer/more expensive tech yielding a better listening experience since i haven't listened to a different amp in ~12 years. Everyone's responses are similar to what i expected but it does have me scratching my head about why the AVRs kinda get crapped on for being unnecessarily packed with tech and electronics that somehow negatively affect the quality of 2-channel listening. If all things are relatively equal (or not audible to the human ear) then why so many products in the $2k range, let alone the $10k+ range? Why a Hegel instead of a Sony, for example? Why a "Masters Series" instead of the Best Buy variety?
Marketing and 2ch gear dealers? Aesthetic perhaps? I use several avrs, even replaced 2ch separates, I just find the avrs far more useful without any loss of audio quality. Best thing an amp brings IMO is power and impedance handling so sometimes an avr with an external amp works, too. Some avrs can use some cooling help, tho....it is a lot of stuff in a box :)
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
makes sense...in a way i'm partly trying to talk myself into "needing" something new and sleek looking vs. a big old AVR despite it still sounding pretty good. I guess i always thought there was some merit in dedicated 2-channel devices that are double the price having some audible advantage over older 7-channel tech...at least with high volume listening. i guess i'll find out when i hook up the Lintons and just go from there. I'm not sure i've ever had this Denon driving a speaker that dips below 4 ohm sometimes so we'll see if it can handle that load well.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Denon will probably be fine with the occasional 4 ohm dip. Don't overthink it! Buy something new to listen to in the way of content perhaps.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
FWIW no experience with Wharfedale myself but I'd look to your speakers and room well before differences in electronics/amp generally.
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
i'm currently using/replacing older polk audio monitor 60s (first gen) that were handed down so i really hope the Lintons will make a big difference on their own. also currently using an old DVD player digital out to the Denon. Regarding CD "transport" do you think its worth investing in a better CD player to replace this old DVD player?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
i'm currently using/replacing older polk audio monitor 60s (first gen) that were handed down so i really hope the Lintons will make a big difference on their own. also currently using an old DVD player digital out to the Denon. Regarding CD "transport" do you think its worth investing in a better CD player to replace this old DVD player?
No, the transport in your optical disc player should be fine for cds and dvds (usually, there were some players initially that only played dvd IIRC). Being faithful to the digits isn't that hard :) I use bluray players myself, Sony and Oppo. Good luck with the Dentons, that the "85"?
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Hi All,

First time poster! I currently have an 11 yr-old Denon AVR (AVR-2313CI), which has treated me well. I was curious what the opinion of the group is regarding using this AVR to power a new set of Lintons vs. getting a new Audiolab 7000A or Marantz 40n? The Denon claims 135w into 8 but i'm guessing both the Audiolab and Marantz newer models would perform just as well from a power delivery perspective. Its kind of hard finding objective information on why you can easily find a 100+ watt AVR for MUCH cheaper than a 70 watt integrated but thats probably a whole separate topic.

Looking for opinions on whether the Audiolab, Marantz or other options in that price range would result in a pretty clear upgrade in sound quality at all listening levels driving the Lintons.

of note perhaps: i'm a Rock music guy from Pink Floyd through Tool and will be listening mostly thru CDs in a medium/large room. Trying to keep wires to a minimum for simplicity purposes and to keep my wife from doing too much complaining about my "junk".

Thanks!
Typically the AVR's are constrained in the power supply area...

They do perform better when driving only 2 channels as their power supply is then more "ample" for the two channels.

The result is that for the most part AVR's tend to get into trouble with difficult speakers, where integrated amps and/or power amps of equivalent price, tend to handle them more easily... BUT (and this is a big one) - AVR's benefit from massive advantages of scale in mass production... that means you get quite a substantial boost in W/$ - they are great value.

Also TOTL AVR's (like any luxury item!) - tend to depreciate massively... after 10 years, the surround, HDMI, DSP components are all obsolete... but the amps from 10 years ago, or even 30 years ago are perfectly fine!

If you are looking at a 15 year old mid-market AVR, vs a higher end Integrated new (to use for stereo)... then the Integrated might well win the battle.
If you are looking at a 15 year old TOTL AVR vs an equivalent new integrated, chances are the AVR would win the battle.

As an aside, a simple rule of thumb for power supply capacity (in an old world linear power supply... not SMPS!) - is weight=capacity, heavier is better. (yes this is a huge generalisation, and in some cases, vendors artificially inflated weight to make their products sell better... and weight also includes differences in case, heatsink, etc...)
My old Onkyo SR876 from about 15 years ago, was a beast - provide a substantial amount more power into stereo than into multi channel, weighed circa 50lb's, and handled difficult speakers with impedances dropping down below 2 ohm without trouble. Much of that 50lb's was the large transformer and capacitors in the power supply... Sadly it's HDMI board failed... but up until I sold it, the SPDIF input was working well, and it remained an excellent Integrated amp (as an AV amp, its function at that point was limited!)
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
No, the transport in your optical disc player should be fine for cds and dvds (usually, there were some players initially that only played dvd IIRC). Being faithful to the digits isn't that hard :) I use bluray players myself, Sony and Oppo. Good luck with the Dentons, that the "85"?
Actually, its the Linton model.
 
S

scotchburg

Enthusiast
Typically the AVR's are constrained in the power supply area...

They do perform better when driving only 2 channels as their power supply is then more "ample" for the two channels.

The result is that for the most part AVR's tend to get into trouble with difficult speakers, where integrated amps and/or power amps of equivalent price, tend to handle them more easily... BUT (and this is a big one) - AVR's benefit from massive advantages of scale in mass production... that means you get quite a substantial boost in W/$ - they are great value.

Also TOTL AVR's (like any luxury item!) - tend to depreciate massively... after 10 years, the surround, HDMI, DSP components are all obsolete... but the amps from 10 years ago, or even 30 years ago are perfectly fine!

If you are looking at a 15 year old mid-market AVR, vs a higher end Integrated new (to use for stereo)... then the Integrated might well win the battle.
If you are looking at a 15 year old TOTL AVR vs an equivalent new integrated, chances are the AVR would win the battle.

As an aside, a simple rule of thumb for power supply capacity (in an old world linear power supply... not SMPS!) - is weight=capacity, heavier is better. (yes this is a huge generalisation, and in some cases, vendors artificially inflated weight to make their products sell better... and weight also includes differences in case, heatsink, etc...)
My old Onkyo SR876 from about 15 years ago, was a beast - provide a substantial amount more power into stereo than into multi channel, weighed circa 50lb's, and handled difficult speakers with impedances dropping down below 2 ohm without trouble. Much of that 50lb's was the large transformer and capacitors in the power supply... Sadly it's HDMI board failed... but up until I sold it, the SPDIF input was working well, and it remained an excellent Integrated amp (as an AV amp, its function at that point was limited!)
Thank you ! it probably wouldn't hurt for me to grab a newer integrated amp in the price range i'm looking at to just A/B and see if i can tell a difference and decide if its worth the extra $$$ or just keep the Denon running. Trying to decide purely based on specs will probably leave me wondering indefinitely, and its easy enough to return something i don't need or feel is worth the price.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
yup, thats the one. its a 3-way design while the Denton is 2-way.
Gotta try some Warfedales when I get a chance, they seem to get fairly positive responses. So many speakers, so little time....
 
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