American manufacturing

[Dude#1279435]

By bringing more jobs back home, doesn't that mean the cost to produce the goods would increase??? Based on higher wages and benefits (vs presumably slave labor). While I'm not against reducing our dependence, that would seem to trigger a new outlook on our consumption. One that is based on consuming less, or do I have that wrong?

 

[highfigh]

By bringing more jobs back home, doesn't that mean the cost to produce the goods would increase??? Based on higher wages and benefits (vs presumably slave labor). While I'm not against reducing our dependence, that would seem to trigger a new outlook on our consumption. One that is based on consuming less, or do I have that wrong?

Add shipping to foreign-made goods and the wages are partially offset but one thing that's probably different- they're working for their lives and here, people are working until they become tired of working. Mexico is once again a more attractive option for manufacturing in North America, as it was when Japan was kicking our tails in the '70s.

 

[TLS Guy]

Add shipping to foreign-made goods and the wages are partially offset but one thing that's probably different- they're working for their lives and here, people are working until they become tired of working. Mexico is once again a more attractive option for manufacturing in North America, as it was when Japan was kicking our tails in the '70s.

Whichever way you look at it, we are going to pay more for manufactured goods.

Shipping goods is getting to be a nightmare. Take ocean shipping. Shipping companies have been getting away with using cheap highly polluting bunker fuel. They have been trying to get around this switching to tanks with cleaner fuel getting near port. This is being cracked down on. Quality fuel and rising insurance costs, plus global instability in shipping routes, is going to make shipping products around the world much more expensive.

In addition it has been apparent for some time that you can not be just be a service industry economy, and we have to get back to a manufacturing economy.

Autos are too a large extent made in the US, whatever the badge. The same will happen with our electronic goods and other items.
I think you will find that design and practice will improve. When electronic manufacturing moved to the Far East, there was a marked reduction in elegant design and reliability.

The most reliable and best built units I own, and I have a lot, where not made in Asia. What is more you have a very good chance of being able to service them as they are not thrown together in a manner so typical of Far Eastern electronic manufacture.

So I will welcome a return to our shores.
'It is not just electronics. I well remember whe OMC moved outboard manufacture to Mexico. Standards went right down the tube and many engines go not go more than 100 hours without blowing apart. So a great company went bust fast, and had to be bought out of bankruptcy by Bombardier.

If costs rise with an increase in quality and better design, the cost of entry may well rise, but in the long run you will be dollars ahead.

The lowests costs by hour of use, definitely goes to units not made in Asia.

So look at the total picture and not just initial purchase price.

 

[cpp]

If you want Made IN the USA , today its going to cost you. But I'm not sure the overall majority of companies will do it, as most will still get their components, parts and pieces from some other county and assemble in the US.. It will be a long time and most likely not in my lifetime, when all parts and components will say Made In the USA. And when that occurs, once again Made in the USA will rule and hopefully with outstanding quality without the wild marked up cost..

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't noticed any particular chunk of manufacturing having returned already to the US....any examples? Higher labor costs and environmental restrictions would be a hurdle as well as the basic infrastructure....

 

[Hobbit]

I haven't noticed any particular chunk of manufacturing having returned already to the US....any examples? Higher labor costs and environmental restrictions would be a hurdle as well as the basic infrastructure....

Intel is expanding (building fabs) and TSMC is building a mega fab in AZ. From my understanding both are behind schedule suffering finding skilled people.

One thing to keep mind of is high tech takes skilled people wherever it is being done. There was a time I essentially had a green card to go back and forth to a fab in China. The area I visited was a high-tech zone setup by the government. Over the years I was going there the cost of living went up so much I would barely be able to pay rent. Many of the people I worked with were high level R&D Phd scientists and engineers at places like Intel that were repatriating. Often to be with their aging parents. I'm sure many will come back as their kids are in the US through college, married with kids, and working. Point being this type of manufacturing in China may not be as cheap as you think.

In China a lot of the lower end (unskilled labor intensive products) are moving to India because it's cheaper there. I also don't see a rush to bring these back. If we were to bring them back, I'm sure they'll be automated and need skilled workers to keep it running.

BTW, I don't buy into that low quality comes from China, India, or anywhere. You always get what you pay for.

 

[TLS Guy]

I haven't noticed any particular chunk of manufacturing having returned already to the US....any examples? Higher labor costs and environmental restrictions would be a hurdle as well as the basic infrastructure....

We have a microchip factory that started in Bloomington in the Twin Cities. It has run at capacity and has recently announced substantial expansion plans.

As others have pointed out, we have a severe educational deficit problem in the US, and this will remain a major barrier until it is corrected.

 

[lovinthehd]

We have a microchip factory that started in Bloomington in the Twin Cities. It has run at capacity and has recently announced substantial expansion plans.

As others have pointed out, we have a severe educational deficit problem in the US, and this will remain a major barrier until it is corrected.

Yep and the numbnuts banning books and whitewashing history are especially shameful.

This one? https://www.mprnews.org/story/2024/05/13/minnesota-polar-semiconductor-manufacturer-millions-funding-expansion

 

[mono-bloc]

Whichever way you look at it, we are going to pay more for manufactured goods.

Unfortunately that is the price we pay for progress. Wages go up, so prices for goods go up, welcome to the mouse's wheel Shipping goods is getting to be a nightmare. Take ocean shipping. It's quite possible that 90% of imported goods here, arrive via a shipping container. Very little home factory manufacturing exists. Major car makers have all shut down, Both General motors [ Holden ] and Ford are now fully imported, Together with a plethora of Asian car brands. The most reliable and best built units I own, and I have a lot, where not made in Asia. Your lucky, Many many products are now produced in Asian factories. Quite a lot of the better quality products are made under heavy license , and standards are high. This applies to some well established brands. As well as the cheaper brands. Question, How many AVR's can you fit in a 40 foot shipping container So I will welcome a return to our shores.'It is not just electronics. It all comes down to price, The days of high powered V8 cars is over, Everyone's looking and buying small Asian brands cars. Which by the way contain everything that opens and shuts, Including battery powered models. The latest models have a 8 year warranty to cover any manufacturing faults And it's only going to get worse, in fact a lot worse While China is the all manufacturing giant, Now, India will soon be a major manufacturer, and like China there is no Unions or work safety regulations to drive up costs.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I'm not sure America wants to pay more for anything, even a penny more. Therefore the idea were going to embrace paying more for anything is difficult to believe.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'm not sure America wants to pay more for anything, even a penny more. Therefore the idea were going to embrace paying more for anything is difficult to believe.

Of course we don’t. Lol. But everything is insane right now. The fun part is that china and I believe India are the two worst offenders of pollution in the world.

 

[highfigh]

Whichever way you look at it, we are going to pay more for manufactured goods.

Shipping goods is getting to be a nightmare. Take ocean shipping. Shipping companies have been getting away with using cheap highly polluting bunker fuel. They have been trying to get around this switching to tanks with cleaner fuel getting near port. This is being cracked down on. Quality fuel and rising insurance costs, plus global instability in shipping routes, is going to make shipping products around the world much more expensive.

In addition it has been apparent for some time that you can not be just be a service industry economy, and we have to get back to a manufacturing economy.

Autos are too a large extent made in the US, whatever the badge. The same will happen with our electronic goods and other items.
I think you will find that design and practice will improve. When electronic manufacturing moved to the Far East, there was a marked reduction in elegant design and reliability.

The most reliable and best built units I own, and I have a lot, where not made in Asia. What is more you have a very good chance of being able to service them as they are not thrown together in a manner so typical of Far Eastern electronic manufacture.

So I will welcome a return to our shores.
'It is not just electronics. I well remember whe OMC moved outboard manufacture to Mexico. Standards went right down the tube and many engines go not go more than 100 hours without blowing apart. So a great company went bust fast, and had to be bought out of bankruptcy by Bombardier.

If costs rise with an increase in quality and better design, the cost of entry may well rise, but in the long run you will be dollars ahead.

The lowests costs by hour of use, definitely goes to units not made in Asia.

So look at the total picture and not just initial purchase price.

When piracy causes shipping to change routes, it looks like we have gone back in time by more than 200 years and look at who's ding it- the SAME effing turds. Barbary, Moor, Houthi- no difference.

WRT electronic manufacturing, the country of origin WRT quality generally has a hierarchy- Japan is at the top, then countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and others come next. China has become the largest because they have more people, the CCP manipulates the currency and that makes them appear to be a 'preferred trading partner'. The thing they don't always do is abide by the designs, contracts & agreements and they don't respect intellectual property rights, so they copy anything they think can benefit them. They got their start in backward engineering through copying military equipment but from what I have heard, they're not as good at that as they would need to be in order for their aircraft to be on the level of what they copied but their electronics are good enough for all practical purposes.

Your non-Asian goods aren't new- that matters.

WRT OMC, it wasn't just moving production to Mexico that stuck the fork in them, it was that terrible FICHT design- they lost so much money they HAD TO be sold. The first time I worked on a FICHT outboard, it had at least one melted piston head because they ran far too lean, in their attempt to meet EPA/CARB emissions numbers. When I removed the spark plugs, I looked into the cylinder and the top of the piston looked like one of those images of the surface of the Sun, shown in the link below. Someone at that dealership who had been around them for awhile asked if I had noticed the magic marker line on the plugs' insulators- that shows where the gap on the ground electrode is, so they can be indexed away from the injector orifice. This is needed because the fuel sprayed onto the gap will quench the spark. Seriously?

Yes. A friend had a Mako with a Johnson/Evinrude FICHT OB and he asked if I could get it to run better. Never happened- I only had one set of plugs. He was taking it to Florida and had another shop down there, so that guy worked on it and needed to use about 30 spark plugs, just to find six that would index properly.

OTOH, the people in tech support were very helpful and informative. They should have dropped that crap as soon as the problems reared their ugly heads. COVID came at a bad time for OMC.

 

[highfigh]

I'm not sure America wants to pay more for anything, even a penny more. Therefore the idea were going to embrace paying more for anything is difficult to believe.

The cost of living in the US is among the highest in the World and we have more uneducated people than we can handle. The worst part- many are uneducated because of their own decisions, bad parenting, bad culture, trying to follow trends and drug/alcohol abuse. The comment from Mittens Romney about 47% of Americans not paying income tax that killed his chances of being elected to POTUS? It was low! It's more than 50% and in a country of 334 million, that difference matters. The US has too many college grads who studied BS topics instead of something that would land a decent job and a lot of recent entrants to the jobs market decide that they don't like the work, want to go off to find themselves and do something that makes them useless. Now, college students think they know all about the World, so they protest in favor of terrorists which will ultimately end their chances of finding good jobs because of that new thing that has come along at a bad time for them- AI. Employers are using facial recognition to weed out people who don't fit the company's HR requirements and qualifications.

Ending shop classes, using some BS new Math teaching and lowering the requirements for graduation is coming to bite the US on its collective ass.

The point of all this- a lot of people can't afford much of anything and if cars are the yardstick, the insane prices make sense only from 'at a price the market will bear', but that market doesn't include everyone. I'm now seeing that the time on dealer lots is about a year for many makes/models- that's not going to be good for those companies or their employees.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Of course we don’t. Lol. But everything is insane right now. The fun part is that china and I believe India are the two worst offenders of pollution in the world.

Pollution or any other contributor isn't going to change the best price.

 

[highfigh]

Pollution or any other contributor isn't going to change the best price.

It would change the prices if their governments decided to go on a 'Zero Emissions' crusade that can't be achieved and forced everyone to abide by specific rules.

I'm not saying I want manufacturers to belch out smoke and fill waterways with pollution but expecting manufacturers to emit zero pollution is an impossible goal.

 

[Dude#1279435]

It would change the prices if their governments decided to go on a 'Zero Emissions' crusade that can't be achieved and forced everyone to abide by specific rules.

I'm not saying I want manufacturers to belch out smoke and fill waterways with pollution but expecting manufacturers to emit zero pollution is an impossible goal.

I'm a bit off put by safety to the point of super worry and the cost to implement that. I'll use an example not related. The hockey player abroad who didn't have neck protection and was killed. That should have already been implemented or 'that's how she goes.' But if I say that I'm cruel. Am I??? So now it's a focal point with more and more regulation. Guess I can't really argue someone being killed. Plus a neck guard I imagine won't kill the industry. But sometimes I feel like it's worry to the point of silly.

 

[highfigh]

I'm a bit off put by safety to the point of super worry and the cost to implement that. I'll use an example not related. The hockey player abroad who didn't have neck protection and was killed. That should have already been implemented or 'that's how she goes.' But if I say that I'm cruel. Am I??? So now it's a focal point with more and more regulation. Guess I can't really argue someone being killed. Plus a neck guard I imagine won't kill the industry. But sometimes I feel like it's worry to the point of silly.

It's a rare occurrence, but if this is extended to the glass surrounding hockey rinks, it does help but it's still possible for a puck to fly over and kill someone, as it did when it hit a young girl in the head. The obvious solutions: make the glass higher and/or provide helmets to the people in the stands. Softer pucks would kill the game.

We can't use polluted air and water- either or both will kill us because they also contaminate crops & animals consumed as food, so making sure pollution doesn't reach harmful levels is absolutely mandatory but I'm damned tired of China, Russia and India being given an effing pass on this. The fact that the jet stream runs West to East means any/all of them could use pollution as a chemical weapon. Hell, we have done that to ourselves- look at fish consumption restrictions in EVERY US state and you'll see that Mercury from Coal fired power generation is shown as the source, even in pristine wilderness areas.

 

[Dude#1279435]

It would change the prices if their governments decided to go on a 'Zero Emissions' crusade that can't be achieved and forced everyone to abide by specific rules.

I'm not saying I want manufacturers to belch out smoke and fill waterways with pollution but expecting manufacturers to emit zero pollution is an impossible goal.

It can only be achieved through the market. The efficiency from burning less gas and oil benefits the industries. Activism might bring about awareness, but in the end it's the market that creates it.

 

[Dude#1279435]

It's a rare occurrence, but if this is extended to the glass surrounding hockey rinks, it does help but it's still possible for a puck to fly over and kill someone, as it did when it hit a young girl in the head. The obvious solutions: make the glass higher and/or provide helmets to the people in the stands. Softer pucks would kill the game.

The cost to provide spectators with helmets who do not care about wearing helmets. You attend a hockey game. The risks are inherent. They've already put up safety nets above the plexiglass behind the goalies. Now they would have to do a rap around, or make the glass higher! Even coaches/assistants have turned down being forced to wear helmets in the benches.

 

[TLS Guy]

When piracy causes shipping to change routes, it looks like we have gone back in time by more than 200 years and look at who's ding it- the SAME effing turds. Barbary, Moor, Houthi- no difference.

WRT electronic manufacturing, the country of origin WRT quality generally has a hierarchy- Japan is at the top, then countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and others come next. China has become the largest because they have more people, the CCP manipulates the currency and that makes them appear to be a 'preferred trading partner'. The thing they don't always do is abide by the designs, contracts & agreements and they don't respect intellectual property rights, so they copy anything they think can benefit them. They got their start in backward engineering through copying military equipment but from what I have heard, they're not as good at that as they would need to be in order for their aircraft to be on the level of what they copied but their electronics are good enough for all practical purposes.

Your non-Asian goods aren't new- that matters.

WRT OMC, it wasn't just moving production to Mexico that stuck the fork in them, it was that terrible FICHT design- they lost so much money they HAD TO be sold. The first time I worked on a FICHT outboard, it had at least one melted piston head because they ran far too lean, in their attempt to meet EPA/CARB emissions numbers. When I removed the spark plugs, I looked into the cylinder and the top of the piston looked like one of those images of the surface of the Sun, shown in the link below. Someone at that dealership who had been around them for awhile asked if I had noticed the magic marker line on the plugs' insulators- that shows where the gap on the ground electrode is, so they can be indexed away from the injector orifice. This is needed because the fuel sprayed onto the gap will quench the spark. Seriously?

Yes. A friend had a Mako with a Johnson/Evinrude FICHT OB and he asked if I could get it to run better. Never happened- I only had one set of plugs. He was taking it to Florida and had another shop down there, so that guy worked on it and needed to use about 30 spark plugs, just to find six that would index properly.

OTOH, the people in tech support were very helpful and informative. They should have dropped that crap as soon as the problems reared their ugly heads. COVID came at a bad time for OMC.

My point is though, that if they had presented that design to the staff in Racine Wisconsin, then they would have told management promptly that is was not a workable design and they would all come back. It was not hard to spot that Boondoggle. The Grand Forks dealer worked hard on me to get me to buy one. I told the salesman to let me see the service manual. So I looked at it. I think they sent it to me electronically if I remember correctly.
Anyhow I predicted this disaster and proclaimed the design a disaster. So all those engines came back in a hurry, and I believe the dealer told me that not one they had sold ran for over a hundred hours and most less. So he could not fathom out how I predicted it. I told him I could spot lousy design a mile off. I am certain the good folk in Racine would have refused to build those engines, and I bet management knew it.