Ukraine – Russia … not more of the last thread

Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
It doesn't matter what we think, we're not involved in whatever process is happening.

Which side HASN'T been fed lies by Russia?
Seriously? "It doesn't matter what we think"? Then why are we even posting in this thread? The whole point is to share what we are thinking. :D

Your comment "OTOH, if they find that Trump can be prosecuted, it may mean Biden can be prosecuted." implies that the Dems may have something to worry about. If I have that wrong, would you care to elaborate? If Trump can be prosecuted, then I most certainly hope that any president, past or sitting, can be prosecuted IF they commit a felony, and that includes Biden. So far I have not read any credible evidence that Joe Biden has committed any crimes.

The article quoted above mentions the classified documents case. Perhaps you are referring to the documents found in Biden's possession? When considering prosecution, they usually take intent into account. In Biden's case, it appeared that a couple of boxes of sensitive documents were overlooked, and those documents were returned immediately upon request. There was no apparent criminal intent in that instance. In Trump's case, he hoarded documents in unsecured locations, denied having them, refused to return them and even purportedly showed some of those documents to individuals that did not have proper clearance. A clear and flagrant violation of multiple laws.

I would wager that there have been several past presidents who had sensitive documents in unsecured locations but the specifics did not warrant criminal investigation. Trump just has the knack of crossing the line that others don't cross.
 
N

nicoleise

Junior Audioholic
I'm aware that the sanctions aren't having as deterring effect as was hoped, but it's still worth keeping them in place at the very least, and increasing their severity.
I totally agree. But I also don't get the way they are being implemented and governed.

I know a girl, who lives in Crimea. We used to play computer games together when we were younger, but that ended with the invasion and subsequent sanctions against Crimea. Because a very large part of the sanctions were applied to Crimea (only, not for example also on Russia), like some sort of victim blaming, and at the same time some sanctions essentially took form of thievery. For example, residents of Crimes couldn't use Steam, but Steam works as a library of games that the user purchased with money, and for a while they actually lost access to play those games they paid money for. Same with e.g. Google Services being unavailable essentially makes your Android phone somewhat useless.

I think a lot could be done to make these sanctions much more targeted against who you actually want to have feel them. I'm sure if political correctness was shelved, creative and bright minds in government could come up with even more effective sanctions.

As another example, the EU stopped importing gas from Russia upon the invasion of Crimea. An obvious and necessary move that we were immediately warned would likely hurt residents of the EU more than Russia. This caused a minor energy crisis throughout EU.

Gas (fuel too) got (and still is) quite a bit more expensive here now. And I pay happily to not support Russia. However while one country can't really lower the fees and taxes imposed on vehicle fuels (their supply would be depleted by especially truckers choosing to fill the tanks there), the EU could have imposed regulations at the same time as the sanctions stating that Member States must reduce fees and taxes on fuel to maintain price levels rather than actually profit from fuel being more expensive to the consumers based on political actions. (Fees and taxes on fuels are a combination of fixed amounts and percentages).

I know its a big statement to use, since obviously these sanctions are not imposed light-heartedly, but I still wish there was a bit more thought involved.

I also think sanctions should be expanded to collaborator nations and that this should have been announced simultaneously with the sanctions right from the get go. You obviously can't sanction e.g. china for "happening" to do more trade with Russia, you can only really frown upon it. But you could expand sanctions to countries who act as proxies to circumvent sanctions.

And as for regular trade, the only answer I can think of would be for governments to announce that import quotas would be imposed on all source countries in which any (increased) trade with Russia by any country will be deducted dollar for dollar (or even with any factor) in import allowances from that same country. This would completely remove the financial incentive to do business with Russia, at least in the open market.

But the big issue with that is that it would obviously require the populations of all first world countries in particular to be able to actually tolerate not being able to get certain goods. Amber has to live without an iPhone15 in such an instance, and I'm far from sure people are actually able to manage even small sacrifices like that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Seriously? "It doesn't matter what we think"? Then why are we even posting in this thread? The whole point is to share what we are thinking. :D

Your comment "OTOH, if they find that Trump can be prosecuted, it may mean Biden can be prosecuted." implies that the Dems may have something to worry about. If I have that wrong, would you care to elaborate? If Trump can be prosecuted, then I most certainly hope that any president, past or sitting, can be prosecuted IF they commit a felony, and that includes Biden. So far I have not read any credible evidence that Joe Biden has committed any crimes.

The article quoted above mentions the classified documents case. Perhaps you are referring to the documents found in Biden's possession? When considering prosecution, they usually take intent into account. In Biden's case, it appeared that a couple of boxes of sensitive documents were overlooked, and those documents were returned immediately upon request. There was no apparent criminal intent in that instance. In Trump's case, he hoarded documents in unsecured locations, denied having them, refused to return them and even purportedly showed some of those documents to individuals that did not have proper clearance. A clear and flagrant violation of multiple laws.

I would wager that there have been several past presidents who had sensitive documents in unsecured locations but the specifics did not warrant criminal investigation. Trump just has the knack of crossing the line that others don't cross.
We can love or hate what the government does, but if we want it to change, it's damned hard to make that happen. "Votes matter"is a pipe dream if a huge percentage doesn't want something and even then, there's no guarantee that it will happen.

I would think we're posting here to add to the number of clearer heads and find some common ground. If not, you asked a valid question- "What are we doing here?".

If one POTUS is immune, all have to be immune. A 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander' kind of thing. HOWEVER, if POTUS commits a capital offense, no- they shouldn't be immune.

How many boxes of docs were in Biden's garage, available for anyone who cared to enter while they were in the house or when the door was open. I would hope there was no bad intent on his part, but what if there was? DOJ has been in the pocket of DNC more than GOP, IMO, but that's all it is- an opinion. I don't want to dig into the mind of someone who probably hears garbage can lids being smashed together when he's in a quiet room and I haven't watched the investigation so closely that I know all of the gory details.

Trump has had a reputation for pushing the limits for a long time- who was in charge of watching what he took when he left the WH? I have to think that someone does that- if not, we're just asking for trouble.

How can a prosecutor be certain of someones' intent, unless it's explicit and has been expressed in some way?

I trust very few people in office and it doesn't matter which party they belong to. I want people watching all of them like Hawks and I don't want them to let anything slide.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The Supreme Court on Wednesday agreed to take up the issue of whether former Trump can be criminally prosecuted for his efforts to overturn his 2020 reelection loss, setting up a historic case that tests the limits of presidential immunity.

The justices’ order keeps Trump’s Jan. 6 criminal trial proceedings on hold, for now, handing an initial blow to Special Counsel Jack Smith, but keeping alive a pathway for his prosecution to reach a jury before the 2024 presidential election.


Trump had urged the justices to slam the brakes on his trial but hold off on taking up his immunity claims on the merits until the former president first exhausts his appeal options in a lower court.

Now we wait until April 22 when the Supreme court talks about it.
Trump will lose (again) at the Supreme Court.

If my prediction is wrong, I'll eat whatever AH crow you care to serve up (that's not intended to be "in your face," it's just an admission that I do not know for sure what will happen).
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I read a comment about this last night- it was actually a dig at GOP for saying Trump should be immune while going after Biden at the same time and not seeing the conflict in their thinking. OTOH, if they find that Trump can be prosecuted, it may mean Biden can be prosecuted.
Biden and Trump both possessed classified documents and information when they were not president. Neither one can make a presidential immunity argument that passes the laugh test. Given that Biden will not face charges it's a moot point in his case. But of course Trump is making the argument. He deserves the scorn that's being heaped on him.

>>>Last night, Donald Trump dropped four motions to dismiss the Florida documents case on the public docket, plus at least three more under seal. Every Trump pleading is bat$hit in its own guanolicious way, but the motions based on presidential immunity and the Presidential Records Act (PRA) are especially egregious.<<<

 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Trump will lose (again) at the Supreme Court.

If my prediction is wrong, I'll eat whatever AH crow you care to serve up (that's not intended to be "in your face," it's just an admission that I do not know for sure what will happen).
I hope its right, if he wins, that will mean all Presidents can pretty much do what they want, and cry I Have Immunity.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Trump will lose (again) at the Supreme Court.

If my prediction is wrong, I'll eat whatever AH crow you care to serve up (that's not intended to be "in your face," it's just an admission that I do not know for sure what will happen).
Let's hope so. Otherwise, the future for the United States and the planet will be questionable. He definitely needs to be declared as ineligible for a presidency post.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Biden and Trump both possessed classified documents and information when they were not president. Neither one can make a presidential immunity argument that passes the laugh test. Given that Biden will not face charges it's a moot point in his case. But of course Trump is making the argument. He deserves the scorn that's being heaped on him.
Why is Biden not facing charges? Returned them?
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
If anyone saw this and thought...W.T.F.
View attachment 66276

Here is an explanation of what gender-inclusive demining means:
Here's the government spiel:
https://www.pm.gc.ca/en/news/backgrounders/2024/02/24/canada-announces-additional-support-ukraine

"Gender-inclusive demining for sustainable futures in Ukraine
Funding:
$4 million
This project from the HALO Trust aims to safeguard the lives and livelihoods of Ukrainians, including women and internally displaced persons, by addressing the threat of explosive ordnance present across vast areas of the country. Project activities include conducting non-technical surveys and subsequent manual clearance in targeted communities; providing capacity building to key national stakeholders; and establishing a gender and diversity working group to promote gender-transformative mine action in Ukraine. "

Sorry, but WTF is "establishing a gender and diversity working group to promote gender-transformative mine action in Ukraine" supposed to mean? I swear, the PM's office has gone off the deep end. o_O
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Here's the government spiel:
https://www.pm.gc.ca/en/news/backgrounders/2024/02/24/canada-announces-additional-support-ukraine

"Gender-inclusive demining for sustainable futures in Ukraine
Funding:
$4 million
This project from the HALO Trust aims to safeguard the lives and livelihoods of Ukrainians, including women and internally displaced persons, by addressing the threat of explosive ordnance present across vast areas of the country. Project activities include conducting non-technical surveys and subsequent manual clearance in targeted communities; providing capacity building to key national stakeholders; and establishing a gender and diversity working group to promote gender-transformative mine action in Ukraine. "

Sorry, but WTF is "establishing a gender and diversity working group to promote gender-transformative mine action in Ukraine" supposed to mean? I swear, the PM's office has gone off the deep end. o_O
Did you not read the Twitter thread? It explains it very clearly. It means paying attention to more than just the front line with regards to de-mining. Guys I have communicated with who served in Afghanistan think it's a good initiative, so I'm not going to question their judgment. What they do on the ground is far more important than the language they use to describe it.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Did you not read the Twitter thread? It explains it very clearly. It means paying attention to more than just the front line with regards to de-mining. Guys I have communicated with who served in Afghanistan think it's a good initiative, so I'm not going to question their judgment. What they do on the ground is far more important than the language they use to describe it.
From the X thread:

>>>Routes taken by children and women have been overlooked - making them the first victims of the consequences of poor demining. They are also the last ones to be informed of the risk situation and of demining efforts - this creates a plethora of issues 4/x<<<(emphasis added)

Here's another blurb on the topic from the International Committee of the Red Cross:

>>>The majority of landmine victims are civilians who step on a mine after armed conflicts has ceased. In some countries, over one-third of all casualties due to landmines are women and children.<<<(emphasis added)


It's not entirely clear what is meant by "first victims" but it seems to imply that children and women are disproportionately victims (i.e. "first" seems to imply more, not a chronological sequence). Roughly speaking, if two thirds of victims are men (ICRC), the statement in the X thread that children and women are "the first victims" of poor demining seems a bit strained.

In terms of children and women being "the last ones to be informed of the risk situation," I can't find any information supporting or refuting this. It seems a bit nebulous to me. In a typical family situation with men, women and children living in a household, wouldn't a person in the household inform the others regardless of the gender of the first person to hear and regardless of the gender of the others?

There's no doubt mines are a huge problem but the emphasis on gender seems a bit odd to me. Why not just say the effort is aimed at saving as many lives as possible?

And that's my huge opinion.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
From the X thread:

>>>Routes taken by children and women have been overlooked - making them the first victims of the consequences of poor demining. They are also the last ones to be informed of the risk situation and of demining efforts - this creates a plethora of issues 4/x<<<(emphasis added)

Here's another blurb on the topic from the International Committee of the Red Cross:

>>>The majority of landmine victims are civilians who step on a mine after armed conflicts has ceased. In some countries, over one-third of all casualties due to landmines are women and children.<<<(emphasis added)


It's not entirely clear what is meant by "first victims" but it seems to imply that children and women are disproportionately victims (i.e. "first" seems to imply more, not a chronological sequence). Roughly speaking, if two thirds of victims are men (ICRC), the statement in the X thread that children and women are "the first victims" of poor demining seems a bit strained.

In terms of children and women being "the last ones to be informed of the risk situation," I can't find any information supporting or refuting this. It seems a bit nebulous to me. In a typical family situation with men, women and children living in a household, wouldn't a person in the household inform the others regardless of the gender of the first person to hear and regardless of the gender of the others?
Yeah, she could have worded that a bit more clearly. My understanding is that in a purely military context, priority is given to demining in areas that impact their areas of operation, with little/no thought given to the rear areas and how the civilian populace is being impacted.

Meanwhile, right-leaning news media don't read past the words "gender inclusive" and just project their own biases onto the effort. Then there are the troglodytes on social media talking about trans-gender and drag queen de-miners. The reason I posted about it was to clarify what it is and what it isn't.
There's no doubt mines are a huge problem but the emphasis on gender seems a bit odd to me. Why not just say the effort is aimed at saving as many lives as possible?

And that's my huge opinion.
Probably because that wouldn't be very informative?

The phrase "gender inclusive" seems to be triggering for many on the right. When they see the words, they turn into bulls staring at a bullfighters red cape and it doesn't matter what they actually mean. Perhaps they should drop the use of those words and just describe what the effort involves.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
At least Sweden becomes a member of NATO today. Fück you Russia.

>>>… Sweden is formally joining the NATO Alliance on March 7, 2024, becoming the 32nd Ally. Sweden is a strong democracy with a highly capable military that shares our values and vision for the world. Having Sweden as a NATO Ally will make the United States and our Allies even safer. …<<<

.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
@GO-NAD! I don't have access to the complete Twitter thread, just the header you linked to. Would you be able to quote the relevant section here? The term gender inclusive seems to get overused in politics. From what Mr Clark posted and your reply, I get the impression that this could have been worded better. If certain terms are known to trigger a negative reaction in people, why not use language that would appeal to a broader audience, rather than stick to language that is known to be divisive?
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
@GO-NAD! I don't have access to the complete Twitter thread, just the header you linked to. Would you be able to quote the relevant section here? The term gender inclusive seems to get overused in politics. From what Mr Clark posted and your reply, I get the impression that this could have been worded better. If certain terms are known to trigger a negative reaction in people, why not use language that would appeal to a broader audience, rather than stick to language that is known to be divisive?
Copied from the Twitter thread.
Here’s what it means: usually, when demining, we look at how it is impacting combatants and civilians. The problem is that we looked at civilian populations has an homogenous groups, and we have had the tendency to focus on men’s role in society and how mining impacts it.

Routes taken by children and women have been overlooked - making them the first victims of the consequences of poor demining. They are also the last ones to be informed of the risk situation and of demining efforts - this creates a plethora of issues.

It’s about understanding different gender roles in societies and ensuring that the processes are as effective as possible.
It could have been worded better, but it can be difficult to be concise and comprehensive on Twitter, due to its format. Regardless, this shouldn't be controversial. And, while the phrase "gender inclusive" can be triggering for snowflakes, how they react is up to them. They could actually read up on what it means in this context, or they can just look at the phrase and project their own imaginary interpretation. Different language could be used, but it would be catering to the unthinking demographic.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Copied from the Twitter thread.


It could have been worded better, but it can be difficult to be concise and comprehensive on Twitter, due to its format. Regardless, this shouldn't be controversial. And, while the phrase "gender inclusive" can be triggering for snowflakes, how they react is up to them. They could actually read up on what it means in this context, or they can just look at the phrase and project their own imaginary interpretation. Different language could be used, but it would be catering to the unthinking demographic.
Going to have to disagree on that. Snowflakes are on both sides. This is coming from the PMO so I would expect language that is not trying to stir up debate. The way the Twitter thread explains it is simple and concise. Why not explain the initiative that way in the first place? Anyone with a bit of common sense should have realised that the way this was worded was going to cause a ruckus among a certain segment of the population. This is just some bureaucrat trying to score brownie points by using the buzzwords promoted by the PMO. If I was to take the announcement as it stands and post it onto Facebook, I could pretty much guarantee a whole raft of negative reactions as the terms inclusivity and gender-transformative don't typically get used in this context. If it requires a series of Twitter posts to explain the initiative and quell the anger, then the announcement was not made properly to begin with.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Going to have to disagree on that.
That's fine. :)

Snowflakes are on both sides.
Except in this case, the snowflakes are on one side.

This is coming from the PMO so I would expect language that is not trying to stir up debate.
I highly doubt that the phrase originated in the PMO. The concept of this sort of demining comes from the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian Demining.

The way the Twitter thread explains it is simple and concise. Why not explain the initiative that way in the first place?
Because, like pretty much any activity, a label is needed. Could they have come up with a less ambiguous one? Probably.

Anyone with a bit of common sense should have realised that the way this was worded was going to cause a ruckus among a certain segment of the population. This is just some bureaucrat trying to score brownie points by using the buzzwords promoted by the PMO. If I was to take the announcement as it stands and post it onto Facebook, I could pretty much guarantee a whole raft of negative reactions as the terms inclusivity and gender-transformative don't typically get used in this context. If it requires a series of Twitter posts to explain the initiative and quell the anger, then the announcement was not made properly to begin with.
To suggest that the label was chosen specifically to raise hackles is pure speculation. And, in the end, if people are upset about it, well, that is their choice. Yes, the phrase is ambiguous. That doesn't make it a Rorschach test for people to project their own definitions.

I guess it was naive of me to think that my initial post would head off any confusion about it.
 
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