Recommend amplifier: usb input, min 100W at 8ohms, HPF control

[isolar8001]

He's also doing it in audiosciencereview and is being a bit stubborn there, too. Starting to smell troll

Yep...especially when the lower cost solution is just buy an AVR.
Even a lowly TSR-700 will do what he wants and would be indistinguishable from a much higher cost, yet more braggable "integrated" solution.

 

[adrhc]

I’m confused. If you are intelligent enough to know what you want and need, why do you need this forum to do your research for you. Google works fine for all of us.

I did it but I found nothing which puzzles me a lot because I find very weird the fact that amp providers don’t feature the HPF in their products: it’s a so necessary feature but they all missed it

 

[adrhc]

He's also doing it in audiosciencereview and is being a bit stubborn there, too. Starting to smell troll

I only try to reach a broader audience.

 

[adrhc]

You should use the crossover in the integrated amp, and max out the low pass filter on the sub (it is only a low pass filter, it is not a crossover). You generally do not want to combine low pass filters.

"it is only a low pass filter, it is not a crossover" - I suspect that I'm using in a confusing way (for the interlocutor) the word "crossover"; I thought it as the point from where the frequencies are dropped (most probably gradually), the high ones for LPF respectively the low ones for HPF; is this understanding correct?

PS: I'm not a native English speaker so I might understand it wrong

 

[PENG]

"it is only a low pass filter, it is not a crossover" - I suspect that I'm using in a confusing way (for the interlocutor) the word "crossover"; I thought it as the point from where the frequencies are dropped (most probably gradually), the high ones for LPF respectively the low ones for HPF; is this understanding correct?

PS: I'm not a native English speaker so I might understand it wrong

I believe the low cost R-N803 has crossover settings too, if you use music cast:

Yamaha R-N803 stereo network receiver with YPAO bass mgt! | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Yamaha's manual is not entirely clear about how that "bass management/music cast interface" works but if they called it crossover, then I think it is, if it is LPF, they would have used that term. Other collaborative evidence is from the REW graphs some users posted, such as the following:

Yamaha R-N803 Stereo Receiver with MusicCast and YPAO - Review | AVS Forum

It is easily imagined that if it has YPAO, it must have the ability to set crossover too:

Other than that one, at below $1,500, you must already know that an AVR has just about everything you listed as must have but they are AVRs that offer at least 7 channels if 100 W/120 W 8/4 ohm is needed.

If, like most people, you don't believe in using an AVR for 2 ch stereo, I understand and I know it is tough as I am still looking too. So far, unless I bite the bullet and grab an AVR, my only other option seems to be to go with a multichannel dac and use it with my PC and Dirac Live bass control. It is sad that no one seem to want to market something that people like you and I are looking for.

Even populist reviewers Andrew Robinson, has recently given up the principle, and started to admit and recommend 2 ch stereo seekers to just grab an AVR, but, as I said I understand why people are not going to do it. I am only mentioning it out of my own frustration, venting...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree that (especially for $600-$1500) an AVR is a fine choice.

 

[TLS Guy]

"it is only a low pass filter, it is not a crossover" - I suspect that I'm using in a confusing way (for the interlocutor) the word "crossover"; I thought it as the point from where the frequencies are dropped (most probably gradually), the high ones for LPF respectively the low ones for HPF; is this understanding correct?

PS: I'm not a native English speaker so I might understand it wrong

You need to study the manual of the R-N800A. You can download it here in English. They list a multilingual user manual, but it is not. It just has useless headings in English, that are non functional. So you will have to struggle with the English version. Anyhow setting the bass management of that unit is very simple. To be clear the unit has low pass and high pass filters, which can be set in the set up menu. It is very simple and easy to understand and is on page 51 of the manual.

For many years, at least for twenty, audio units like this are basically computers in terms of control and many of their functions. So they are controlled via software to an extensive degree. That means the days of plug and play are over.

So, with any purchase you HAVE to read the manual before purchase and understand it. Then you follow the manual as you do the initial setup and when you make changes until you get familiar with your equipment. We all go the through this, no matter how long we have been in audio. You have to operate your equipment a it was designed to work and operate. So the rule RTFM applies always these days. That R-N800A fulfills all the requirements you listed. They are all detailed in a 151 page manual. That is something you just have to get your head round these days. However the manual is only about half the length of an AVR or AVP.

With the architecture of modern equipment, I don't see anyway round this. I think this is part of the following for analog vintage equipment, where it is intuitive and every button and knob says what it does. Those days are long gone, and reserved for the pages of eBay largely. I have kept my gear in good order, and so have gear going back sixty years. However I do not eschew the benefits of the modern digital age. It actually juxtapositions well, give much pleasure and fascinates visitors.

 

[lovinthehd]

"it is only a low pass filter, it is not a crossover" - I suspect that I'm using in a confusing way (for the interlocutor) the word "crossover"; I thought it as the point from where the frequencies are dropped (most probably gradually), the high ones for LPF respectively the low ones for HPF; is this understanding correct?

PS: I'm not a native English speaker so I might understand it wrong

Not particularly, it's the point where the low pass filter and high pass filter slopes "cross" thus crossover. The world of 2ch only audio has generally not provided much in the way of provisions for a subwoofer, and many subs misuse the term "crossover" when all they supply is a low pass filter (to "blend" with the lower reach of your speakers).

Here's a visual for a crossover

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep...especially when the lower cost solution is just buy an AVR.
Even a lowly TSR-700 will do what he wants and would be indistinguishable from a much higher cost, yet more braggable "integrated" solution.

If not used with a display/tv, I can see some difficulties in setup for an avr, but with a good front panel display shouldn't be too hard....

 

[adrhc]

you are right that an AVR should work, with this post I only try to check whether there's a better solution; as pointed out before, Yamaha offers R-N1000A which is almost a perfect match, it's just that I'm very picky, I want HPF with Pure Direct which seems not possible - I might accept it in the end though

For me, the issue is that I only need that hardware part (i.e. amp's ability to power the speakers) and HPF, no other signal processing; I estimate a device featuring only these should cost almost like Yamaha A-S501 (which has everything, yeah, no USB but optical, but it lacks HPF) which is about 550 Euro. The rest of it, audio processing, radio online, audio streaming of all sorts, Airplay, Bluetooth, etc, I'm able to provide on my own with HTPC (I'm a software engineer, I can handle those). In the end, I think I'll choose between Yamaha R-N1000A and solving with HTPC the HPF too.

 

[TLS Guy]

you are right that an AVR should work, with this post I only try to check whether there's a better solution; as pointed out before, Yamaha offers R-N1000A which is almost a perfect match, it's just that I'm very picky, I want HPF with Pure Direct which seems not possible - I might accept it in the end though

For me, the issue is that I only need that hardware part (i.e. amp's ability to power the speakers) and HPF, no other signal processing; I estimate a device featuring only these should cost almost like Yamaha A-S501 (which has everything, yeah, no USB but optical, but it lacks HPF) which is about 550 Euro. The rest of it, audio processing, radio online, audio streaming of all sorts, Airplay, Bluetooth, etc, I'm able to provide on my own with HTPC (I'm a software engineer, I can handle those). In the end, I think I'll choose between Yamaha R-N1000A and solving with HTPC the HPF too.

I don't think anything will use the crossover with pure direct. Pure direct is useless anyway, as it gets rid of a lot of the advances you have paid for. I never use pure direct. It is pretty much pointless. This whole idea is caused by senseless audiophool digiphobes. Stop reading the 'funny' magazines and literature.

 

[isolar8001]

That whole "pure direct" concept is a bunch of hooey.

Years ago, you saw those that wouldn't touch the tone controls...a similar concept.

"You shouldn't have to adjust those if you have good equipment!"

Yeah, just forget about the 10 thousand variables present in any system/speaker/room scenario and stick to those purist guns....and enjoy your lousy results.

You kinda get the impression they believed that if you switch on any processing it shunts to a different inferior piece of equipment, or an inferior circuit.
Nope, you are using the piece as it was designed and utilizing the functions you paid for.

 

[adrhc]

I want to use Pure Direct because I want all processing to be on my HTPC; I don't even need other processing than HPF in the first place.

 

[Eppie]

I want to use Pure Direct because I want all processing to be on my HTPC; I don't even need other processing than HPF in the first place.

I think you need to understand that pretty much every modern unit with digital inputs, whether it be an AVR or an integrated amp like the Yamaha R-N800A, does all of its processing in the digital domain. So if you use the subwoofer out on the Yamaha or an AVR, or use the room correction features, analogue signals are converted to digital, then all of the processing is performed, included HPF and LPF, and then the signal is converted back to analogue for amplification. Pure Direct mode disables all digital processing, so you lose the HPF and LPF. Pure Direct mode simply makes no sense when using a subwoofer, unless you have full range speakers, like some tower speakers.

You can use a mini-DSP to separate the highs and lows and then feed those signals to a subwoofer and an integrated amp, but then you are processing in the digital domain again, so why not just use the Yamaha or an AVR to do the same thing for much less cost? There is no sense in trying to be a "purist" when your source material from the computer is digital to begin with. My goal would be to reduce the number of conversions from digital to analogue and back. Keep it digital from the PC to the processor (for the HP and LP filters) and try for a single digital to analogue conversion before the amplifier stage. That's as pure as you will get with a digital source in my view.

 

[adrhc]

Pure Direct mode simply makes no sense when using a subwoofer

my subwoofer can handle LPF so Pure Direct is just fine, the issue is instead with HPF. But you are right, the amp is doing a lot of processing; even so, it seems that there’s still a gain in using Pure Direct so why not trying to benefit it when there’s no loss? I’m not a “purist”, I’m just a beginner in the audio field, but like in any field, I try to get the best from the gear I use.

why not just use the Yamaha or an AVR to do the same thing for much less cost?

I already agreed that I’d go with Yamaha R-N1000A or with my custom HTPC + Yamaha A-S501 (550 Euro) - I’m exploring the HTPC approach right now.

 

[TLS Guy]

my subwoofer can handle LPF so Pure Direct is just fine, the issue is instead with HPF. But you are right, the amp is doing a lot of processing; even so, it seems that there’s still a gain in using Pure Direct so why not trying to benefit it when there’s no loss? I’m not a “purist”, I’m just a beginner in the audio field, but like in any field, I try to get the best from the gear I use.


I already agreed that I’d go with Yamaha R-N1000A or with my custom HTPC + Yamaha A-S501 (550 Euro) - I’m exploring the HTPC approach right now.

As you state you are a beginner. Unfortunately you have researched opinions of the ignorant and scoundrels.

The architecture of you system is suboptimal

You do not understand crossovers at all. You should not design an HPF and LPF in isolation. In any good crossover design the HPF and LPF need to be literally joined at the hip. So you absolutely need your integrated amp, AVP or AVR to do both the HPF and LPF crossovers. That is why they are designed that way.

I think you are under the impression that somehow the digital circuitry in that Yamaha will audibly degrade the sound. It won't.

On this site you will get no erroneous myth or superstition, just the hard true facts and no bunk. Most sites are just choker full of nonsense.

Now let's get to architecture of your system. What is required is clean logical pathways, with processes taking place in their ideal locations.

Now the Yamaha amp, AVR AVP or what you choose needs to be the heart of the system.

So you need to connect your sources to that, both digital and analog. Your peripheral devices, if analog, will connect to the appropriate analog inputs. Digital sources need to connect to their appropriate inputs. As already stated you need to avoid conversions and reconversions.

So your HTPC needs to the the unit that grabs your streams programs or what you desire, and send them in digital format to your unit that does the conversions, processing and then onto amps whether they be integrated or not, or even active speakers.

That is the correct architecture and the absolutely correct way to organize your system. If you go oddball you will degrade your system. I have told you how systems are set up, and are designed for this architecture. If you persist in going oddball you will pay a sound quality penalty.

There is nothing wrong with using computers in AV and audio. I have two in my rig, and HTPC and a Digital audio workstation. The HTPC is for AV streams and connects to my AVP via HDMI. My DAW has it own external DAC for recording and playback and is loaded with pro recording and editing software. The DAW connects to the AVP via coax digital, and to the editing and control screen via HDMI. The AVP is connected to an array of both digital and analog units. The AVP is connected to a total of 18 power amp channels powering a combination of active and passive speakers. It works because I follow the rules and protocols and tune out the idiots.

Lastly just let me reinforce that all these oddball gurus, who now come in a vast array of oddball flavors, are downgrading music lovers systems on a massive scale, and wasting a lot of their cash in the process.

 

[isolar8001]

my subwoofer can handle LPF so Pure Direct is just fine, the issue is instead with HPF. But you are right, the amp

I don't get where you developed this obsession with "HPF", or why you think you must have it at your fingertips.
Have you measured your system and have some nasty null or peak ?

Its real simple...your amp/AVR sets a crossover point. Anything below is LP, anything above is HP.
Of course the frequency is not a knife edge, there will be overlap both ways.

If you want to adjust the HPF portion, it's real easy with an AVR. Just go into the room correction programs graphic equalizer and adjust it there (frequencies that have been sent to the sub should be greyed out)...but guess what ? Almost no one ever does this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I want to use Pure Direct because I want all processing to be on my HTPC; I don't even need other processing than HPF in the first place.

I think pro amps like Crown and Yamaha have both HPF and LPF settings for each channel.

 

[MrBoat]

Used AVR for pennies on that dollar is the way to learn exactly what you need. You may even stop there as I did. I have experimented with a lot of speakers and amps via a used AVR. It's been an extraordinarily useful piece of gear, and from 2Ohms on up. It's almost foolish to not at least have one for the hell of it if you have any aspiration to follow this hobby in even of most minimal interest. This one piece of equipment will end up solving a lot of mysteries, even without the room correction bs.

 

[adrhc]

The pure-direct analog input path had significantly lower distortion than with the DSP engaged. SINAD below 2Vrms was 98dB for analog pure-direct or via a digital input source which is superb. This dropped to about 82dB for analog sources with pure-direct bypassed. Definitely use the Pure-Direct feature for your analog sources if you want the cleanest signal path as Yamaha advertises.

Yamaha R-N1000A Network Receiver Bench Test Results

The Yamaha R-N1000A is a 2CH Network AV receiver rated at 100 watts/ch and has features most stereo receivers don’t. Our bench test report determines if it lives up to their prestigious Top-Art reputation.

www.audioholics.com

@TLS Guy, I understand by now that you are an expert in the audio field and I respect that, but based on measurements it seems that indeed, there is a gain when using Pure Direct; if I'd buy Yamaha R-N1000A I wouldn't use Pure Direct because I'd lose HPF feature.

In any good crossover design the HPF and LPF need to be literally joined at the hip.

I agree but that's not complicated to fit properly by only experimenting with their values, there are not so many combinations to play with.

Now the Yamaha amp, AVR AVP or what you choose needs to be the heart of the system.

I disagree because that amp, AVR AVP or whatever is a specialised kind of computer like any computer could be. I don't need those many types of connections you mentioned hence it's feasible for me to use the HTPC as an AVR replacement (the part of it excluding the capability to power the speakers); with my HTPC I'm essentially building an AVR (with no power feature) which on the long run is even better for me because I can freely upgrade its software and cheaply upgrade its hardware. Besides music, I use the same computer (i.e. HTPC) for many other tasks (e.g. cloud server, family router, etc) hence I pay once for many gains. Besides the HTPC (which I already own) I'll need a much cheaper amp, e.g. Yamaha A-S501 (550 Euro) or A-S701, only to power the speakers, which I'll have to never upgrade (hence a one-time cost). The weak part of this setup is indeed the jack connection provisioned for the subwoofer. Additionally, for me, is very cheap to experiment with my computer, hence to also learn more about audio, and only then to evaluate whether I should buy Yamaha R-N1000A (or maybe something newer & better).