Marantz Cinema 30 AVR to Replace the SR8015

[PENG]

Would the toroidal transformer in the C30 make any noticeable difference in sound over the X6800?

The toroidal thing is absolutely a myth in terms of better sound quality. There are pros and cons for both, sometimes it boils down to how they fit the layout, e.g. in order to have the best VA rating, Denon opted to continue with non toroids for their AVC-X8500H, AVC-A110, AVC-A1H. Their previous real flagship class AVRs such as the 5308CI, and the 5800 series did have toroid but those were just too big and heavy now when people are moving on the smaller and lighter boxes.

Marantz opted for toroids because are willing to use smaller VA rating transformers, and also my guess is that, their marketing people understand the power of hype, such as toroids vs EI, gold plated connectors vs non gold plated ones, and HDAMs vs no HDAMs lol...

 

[PENG]

That’s cool by me. I have friends who feel exactly the same. I won’t argue.

I would too, but only if price is right, and only because I prefer their aesthetic so I don't mind paying a little more. Those who opted for them and pay a lot more, often for less (in terms of bench test results) for "sound quality" are really silly to take those marketing hypes as facts, but you can't convince them otherwise because they are 100% perceptive/subjective, even illogical so there is no use to explain to them why that Marantz sound is a myth.

 

[PENG]

Here are the upgrades from last generation products which carries over to the current ones as well.

Marantz SR8012 Advantages over the Denon AVR-X6500H:

• HDAM SA2 current feedback topology between preamp and power amp
• 22,000uF, 81V capacitors x 2 vs 15,000uF, 73V capacitors (X-6500H)
• Torodial 835VA transformer vs 750VA E-Core (X-6500H)
• Separated symmetric construction vs single in-line (X6500H)
• Copper plated chassis
• More rigid top cover
• Teflon tape on oscillator circuit for better damping

Gene, there is a rumor (source appear to European dealers, one in France and one in Germany) about the AVC-X6800H, and therefore presumably the Cinema 30 too have been switched to the brand new ESS DAC chip, namely the ES9017 that is not a reference class chip like the one in the AV10 and AVC-A1H, but is comparable to Yamaha's ES9026Pro used in their AVP and flagship AVRs.

Denon/Marantz has not been saying anything about this potential dac chip upgrade, so I wonder if you can get Phil Jones or Masimo 's engineering to confirm this rumor? It it is factual, this time it is to their benefit to mention it in their marketing info, if not, the PCM5102A haters will likely stay away. I am sure they weren't happy about the DAC downgrade publicity on AVSF and ASR lol, but...

ESS Technology Introduces New High Performance Audio Digital-to-Analog (DAC) Converter – ESS Technology, Inc.

ES9017 Datasheet (esstech.com)

 

[PENG]

That's only half of the point. The real question is which one will blow up first. It only takes one amp board in the Cinema 30 to get a shorted power transistor and the whole rig is down.

Whereas in my system with my Quads, if one amp goes down, I have spare ready to go while I fix the amp that is down if it does.

I honestly think the whole receiver concept is absurd, and would never consider owning one for an instant.

I would say we don't look to reliability nearly enough. A system down is more than just one bad day.

In fact, I think this is my biggest criticism of this forum that we don't talk reliability of the architecture and equipment selection enough. For me it is a top consideration.

I agree reliability is the important point, but you are making general statements that should only apply in same situations. In most applications, power amps in AVRs won't likely fail before the preamp/dac section. The few exceptions were likely 99.999% due to people abusing them, such as pushing the output, and their hearing beyond their limits.

If you browse forums you will see most failures of AVRs have to do with the HDMI and protective circuitry acting up, rarely related to the internal amps no matter how many channels.

For the recent models such as the C30, if one pair it with a 3 channel 200/300W 8/4 ohms power amp and use the internal amps for the surround and height/Atmos channels, it will perform better than the AV7706 paired with those Monolith amps.

 

[Nondemo01]

Those differences won't be audible. It comes down to reliability, and the whole receiver concepts is not a concept that gives any confidence of reliability.


I have had the 7705 in use for over 4 years now and it is excellent, reliable and stable. It measures very well also on my bench.

That's great reliability and I'd expect the same from Marantz for the 30 considering their 5 year warranty period and it being manufactured in their Japanese factory. Rarely do we own such items for over 5 years. Heck, I'd bet most of us upgrade iPhones nearly every year and those are $1,000. Keep it well ventilated, use care when hooking up, and keep pets/kids away from the cables and I bet it will live for a long time.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's great reliability and I'd expect the same from Marantz for the 30 considering their 5 year warranty period and it being manufactured in their Japanese factory. Rarely do we own such items for over 5 years. Heck, I'd bet most of us upgrade iPhones nearly every year and those are $1,000. Keep it well ventilated, use care when hooking up, and keep pets/kids away from the cables and I bet it will live for a long time.

Funny thing is the old Marantz AV7705/7706 were made in Vietnam with a 3 YR warranty, but all the new Marantz have a 5 YR warranty. And yes, the Cinema 30 is made in Japan.

So far I am liking what I am seeing from Masimo:
1. Warranty on Marantz and Denon A1 increased from 3YR to 5YR.
2. Dirac Live option.

 

[PENG]

Funny thing is the old Marantz AV7705/7706 were made in Vietnam with a 3 YR warranty, but all the new Marantz have a 5 YR warranty. And yes, the Cinema 30 is made in Japan.

So far I am liking what I am seeing from Masimo:
1. Warranty on Marantz and Denon A1 increased from 3YR to 5YR.
2. Dirac Live option.

To me the made in China thing is sort of a myth, to a point anyway. Many bad products were, and still are, made there, but some have been quite good, especially those made in factories (or at lease the QS systems), set up by reputable firms such as Apple. My MacBook Pro, bought in 2014, almost 10 years old and is in top mint condition, also still has a iPhone 5S, and two Google phones made by Huawei/China in good working condition. It does not have to be made in Japan for such products to be reliable.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To me the made in China thing is sort of a myth, to a point anyway. Many bad products were, and still are, made there, but some have been quite good, especially those made in factories (or at lease the QS systems), set up by reputable firms such as Apple. My MacBook Pro, bought in 2014, almost 10 years old and is in top mint condition, also still has a iPhone 5S, and two Google phones made by Huawei/China in good working condition. It does not have to be made in Japan for such products to be reliable.

It's also part of "status", pride of ownership, etc.

Some people think smaller boutique brands or "made in Japan" sound better or have higher-end status.

Another car analogy - a lot of people think cars made in Japan are just better. You rather have a Toyota or Lexus made in the USA or the same car made in Japan?

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree reliability is the important point, but you are making general statements that should only apply in same situations. In most applications, power amps in AVRs won't likely fail before the preamp/dac section. The few exceptions were likely 99.999% due to people abusing them, such as pushing the output, and their hearing beyond their limits.

If you browse forums you will see most failures of AVRs have to do with the HDMI and protective circuitry acting up, rarely related to the internal amps no matter how many channels.

For the recent models such as the C30, if one pair it with a 3 channel 200/300W 8/4 ohms power amp and use the internal amps for the surround and height/Atmos channels, it will perform better than the AV7706 paired with those Monolith amps.

I suspect that I would be guilty of pushing a receiver beyond its limits. A massive orchestra in the pit, plus 150 member opera chorus and assorted brass players would probably do for a receiver if I had one.

In any case a receiver can not drive my system as my speakers system was not designed to be driven from one. So the issue is moot as far as I'm concerned.

I have found the AVPs to be reliable. My second one had an early failure due to a bad voltage regulator, but that was fixed and it worked for many years As far as I know it still does as it is in my storage pile. The next two AVPs are still in daily use, after I think 14 years. The 7705 is four and half years old, almost. Talking of which I was surprised they could improve the unit with firmware updates. When new it could produce some potentially speaker busting thumps, but these were banished with the first firmware update.

For the initial period the SNR was not all I hoped for. You could not hear noise in any program, but you could hear a faint hiss at the listening positions in a quiet room, whereas all those 9 Quad amps made no noise you could hear in the room. After updates, you can no longer hear the hiss in the room, but you can hear it if your stick your ear in the speaker. I have to assume they could change the gain structure through the firmware somehow. Or may be the solid state devices just settled down.
I have no complaint against the unit at this time. The distortion is so low, that it is irrelevant, especially compared to any speaker.

So I don't see any need to buy the 7706. I am certain I would hear no difference. So now it is a race to see who dies first, me or the 7705.

The other issue is that you can give maximal protection to an AVP which contains the fragile circuits vulnerable to power issues, but you can't a receiver, because of the power amps. I feel this has to impact longevity. Protection is something I engineer in. Only the power amps are protected just by surge protections at the residence power entry.

So currently I enjoy really good sound, and I have never heard the system get even near its limits, let alone over.

So my view is that AVPs have a definite place in no holes barred systems.

The last issue is that not having rack mounting is a deal breaker for me. A unit weighing what that C30 does needs to be able to be mounted in a 19" rack. With all those connections, being able to get behind it is essential. If not, it is a nightmare installation right from the start.

 

[Nondemo01]

Funny thing is the old Marantz AV7705/7706 were made in Vietnam with a 3 YR warranty, but all the new Marantz have a 5 YR warranty. And yes, the Cinema 30 is made in Japan.

So far I am liking what I am seeing from Masimo:
1. Warranty on Marantz and Denon A1 increased from 3YR to 5YR.
2. Dirac Live option.

Not meaning to impugn "country of origin" just pointing out that this item is made next to their other higher-end items in their factory in Japan. I'm pretty certain Perlisten and Arendal are made in China and have seen firsthand how flawless their stuff is. But when a company highlights a difference, there's probably a reason other than "marketing". They tend to highlight and reinforce a higher level of QC at various trade shows in the Japanese plant. I've enjoyed D&M products from each and find them immensely usable and reliable. I just don't want to fall victim to assumptions regarding an "AVP" outlasting an "AVR" simply due to it being an all-in-one.

 

[Deckard71]

I would too, but only if price is right, and only because I prefer their aesthetic so I don't mind paying a little more. Those who opted for them and pay a lot more, often for less (in terms of bench test results) for "sound quality" are really silly to take those marketing hypes as facts, but you can't convince them otherwise because they are 100% perceptive/subjective, even illogical so there is no use to explain to them why that Marantz sound is a myth.

I am one of the sillies as I opt for Marantz because of sound quality vs denon. Or rather than “quality”, sound signature. Nothing to do with aesthetics. Probably they measure worse, but I like the sound of Marantz way more than Denon

Paraphrasing you: Those who opted for them based on aesthetics and bull-eye hole are really silly to pay a lot more

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not meaning to impugn "country of origin" just pointing out that this item is made next to their other higher-end items in their factory in Japan. I'm pretty certain Perlisten and Arendal are made in China and have seen firsthand how flawless their stuff is.

Don’t know about “flawless”.

A friend of mine bought dual new $5K PerListen subs and both sub amps died after couple of months.

 

[TLS Guy]

Don’t know about “flawless”.

A friend of mine bought dual new $5K PerListen subs and both sub amps died after couple of months.

I am not surprised by that. The powers involved are colossal, and heat removal is probably a significant challenge. It is that old adage of "trying to get the quart out of a pint pot".

I take the polar opposite approach and design my speakers to take account of the wavelengths involved. They are sized accordingly given the wavelengths involved.
My bass section can shake the floor and your internal organs with little power. So the long TL is half the wavelength of the low bass notes, as it should be, as that is the correct physics for a stopped pipe. So yes, I do things differently but for very good reasons. You fight nature at your own risk!

 

[TLS Guy]

This thread has put me in a particularly contrary mood! So I just placed on a turntable 60 years old, the PU is 53 years old, and the preamp it is playing though is 60 years old.
The disc is one of my favorites of the back concertos for four harpsichords, from long before the digital era. The disc is dated 1967. I was pretty sure I had bought this while still a UK resident. The surfaces are still silent and it sounds marvelous. You would never imagine the antiquity of this front end.

So the moto is buy wisely and keep long. Avoid upgradeitis and do your best to get it right the first time.

 

[cpp]

Yep and I'm the other way, think the Marantz porthole thing is an abomination, and have really considered Marantz very seriously since my 2270 back in the 70s, particularly for avrs. I did have a Pioneer with a 2yr warranty that went up in smoke shortly after that expired....but only Denon issues I had were refurbs and the issues showed up quick, even a 1 year warranty would have been sufficient (but died within free return period). 5 is nicer than 3, but just how often does that come into play?

I like them both, but I also like Yammy as well. Speaking of Marantz I still have a 2270 that one day will go off for a restoration and upgrades. Right now it just stays in a box. And my Denon 4311 is still working, knocking on wood as I write that LOL.

 

[Nondemo01]

Don’t know about “flawless”.

A friend of mine bought dual new $5K PerListen subs and both sub amps died after couple of months.

Yup, I’m sure warranty covers that. My experience has been very positive and flawless is an appropriate description for me and you’re free to disagree. I’m certain one could find failures in everything if we look hard enough. But I’d caution losing sight of the forest for the trees. Cheers.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yup, I’m sure warranty covers that. My experience has been very positive and flawless is an appropriate description for me and you’re free to disagree. I’m certain one could find failures in everything if we look hard enough. But I’d caution losing sight of the forest for the trees. Cheers.

He has had two fail. I suspect he is playing them much louder than you and that those subs are not actually as powerful as advertised.

If the amps are replaced and he uses them as before, then 'dollars to doughnuts' he will get the same result, which is two busted amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yup, I’m sure warranty covers that. My experience has been very positive and flawless is an appropriate description for me and you’re free to disagree. I’m certain one could find failures in everything if we look hard enough. But I’d caution losing sight of the forest for the trees. Cheers.

Yeah, sure, it’s “flawless” until it fails.

Just pray it doesn’t happen to you, especially after the warranty period ends.

Also, when my friend’s dual PerListen subs died, he tried contacting Perlisten via their website multiple times and couldn’t get any response from anyone for a while. That freaked him out and pissed him off.

Just stating what happened.

Anyway, this is getting off topics. Let’s get back to our regular programming.

 

[Nondemo01]

Yeah, sure, it’s “flawless” until it fails.

Just pray it doesn’t happen to you, especially after the warranty period ends.

Also, when my friend’s dual PerListen subs died, he tried contacting Perlisten via their website multiple times and couldn’t get any response from anyone for a while. That freaked him out and pissed him off.

Just stating what happened.

Anyway, this is getting off topics. Let’s get back to our regular programming.

Why do the people that take forums "off topic" have to be the ones to say "Let's get back to the topic". That puzzles me.

Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC, the warranty of the Marantz CINEMA 30 is 5 years. NOTHING lasts forever. Nothing. EVERYTHING has the possibility to break or malfunction. That's why I jump with TWO parachutes. Main and reserve even though I packed BOTH. I would caution anyone about making broad generalizations about a product not even released yet and its longevity. I've praised companies such as Monoprice, ATI, Arendal, and now Marantz for such support for a product that is cycled on/off probably multiple times a day. I wish bananas lasted more than a few days but I don't go screaming at Dole when they don't. What do the readers feel is "right" for warranty? 5 years? 3 years? 10 years? I know, inevitably someone is going to proclaim their "whatever" has lasted "XX years". Great for them but I wish we could stop sh*%$*%g on companies who adopt industry leading support solely because they've had good luck.

 

[TLS Guy]

Why do the people that take forums "off topic" have to be the ones to say "Let's get back to the topic". That puzzles me.

Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC, the warranty of the Marantz CINEMA 30 is 5 years. NOTHING lasts forever. Nothing. EVERYTHING has the possibility to break or malfunction. That's why I jump with TWO parachutes. Main and reserve even though I packed BOTH. I would caution anyone about making broad generalizations about a product not even released yet and its longevity. I've praised companies such as Monoprice, ATI, Arendal, and now Marantz for such support for a product that is cycled on/off probably multiple times a day. I wish bananas lasted more than a few days but I don't go screaming at Dole when they don't. What do the readers feel is "right" for warranty? 5 years? 3 years? 10 years? I know, inevitably someone is going to proclaim their "whatever" has lasted "XX years". Great for them but I wish we could stop sh*%$*%g on companies who adopt industry leading support solely because they've had good luck.

Warranty is just a part of the issue. One issue is what is warranty service like? More often than not suboptimal, with long delays. The next issue and more to the point what is service like after warranty. On some products now there is zero service.

The next issue is failure to issue service manuals. That is a total disgrace. Everything is designed in to make service next to impossible.

Serviceability starts with good design, both electronically and physically in the interior. Then we get to the issue of parts supply for an ethical length of time. A lot of companies don't even have parts for the statutory seven years required by law.

As someone who has been building and doing the bulk of my own service for close to seventy years now, I can tell the current state of affairs is a disgrace. A total disgrace.

So warranty is only a small part of the issue. Things used to be far different. So that is why I keep my equipment long. If I have an older piece in good order, I keep it long. As I said yesterday, I used a turntable over 60 years old, and the preamp it was connected to was sixty years old. It sounded as if it was made last week! That did not happen by accident, but by good design.

So warranty is obviously important, but even more important is service.