Audiophile-Grade Home Theater Setup: Combining Audio-Focused Gear with Home Theater Components

[PENG]

That just about explains your total lack of knowledge, when It comes down to any sort of review or comment. In short is your talking through the back of your head. And have zero knowledge of standard amplification How would you know that if as you admit to never owning an integrated 2 channel amplifier. Once again your running your mouth off about something you freely admit you have zero knowledge of. Many years ago I owned a Yamaha Z11, While it had countless connections for all sorts of supposed programming, Much of which is never used . It's power supply was basic, and really did struggle with different speaker loads. Maggies where a complete no no. At the time I was running a Pass Labs integratted.Needless to say the Yamaha was returned to the retail outlet post haste, never to return. The main problem with any AVR is there power supplies, which are cheap third rate units, which are the cause of most failures. It really comes down to cost and high quality Toroidal power supplies cost a lot more, But are far more reliable. And after all you only get what you pay for. There was a Boulder 3060 on AudiogoN the other day the cost was $158.000. There power supplies are massive. Of cause there not really the equal of Gryphon , or MBL. But then what is.

No one is bashing integrated amps anyway (I owned them before, still do), but I think people have reasons to believe integrated amps are also a compromised audio device, relative to separate dacs, preamps and power amps. It is also a fact that often enough, even some midrange integrated amps share quite a few parts with AVRs, they just don't tell their loyal customers in their marketing info. The important volume ICs, switches, even opa buffers are some examples, and some of those ICs do determine the so called "sound quality" that integrated amp users thought their amps sounded so much better just because it is "integrated", without the many extras (such as the video section) jammed in an AVR, without knowing enough about the similarities that make them not so remarkable in relative sense, to AVRs. To borrow you saying, "...lack of knowledge...", that to me, is also like ignorance is bliss, so it may be better if users don't know the technical details of their integrated amps, that they more often than not, assume will "sound better" than just about any AVRs. All else being equal, of course integrated amps don't need to make as much design compromise than that for AVRs, and likewise, separated also don't require as much compromise as integrated amps. Just that there are lots of exceptions, so one should not generalize, and I am not saying you do, I am just mentioning some facts.

On the measurement benches, we know for a fact that many integrated measured worse than many AVRs, and before anyone make an false claims, no we are not just talking about SINAD, but other measurements that matter too.

 

[TLS Guy]

That just about explains your total lack of knowledge, when It comes down to any sort of review or comment. In short is your talking through the back of your head. And have zero knowledge of standard amplification How would you know that if as you admit to never owning an integrated 2 channel amplifier. Once again your running your mouth off about something you freely admit you have zero knowledge of. Many years ago I owned a Yamaha Z11, While it had countless connections for all sorts of supposed programming, Much of which is never used . It's power supply was basic, and really did struggle with different speaker loads. Maggies where a complete no no. At the time I was running a Pass Labs integratted.Needless to say the Yamaha was returned to the retail outlet post haste, never to return. The main problem with any AVR is there power supplies, which are cheap third rate units, which are the cause of most failures. It really comes down to cost and high quality Toroidal power supplies cost a lot more, But are far more reliable. And after all you only get what you pay for. There was a Boulder 3060 on AudiogoN the other day the cost was $158.000. There power supplies are massive. Of cause there not really the equal of Gryphon , or MBL. But then what is.

I can tell you how I know, as my measurements of the output from AV preamp outs are so good that even if one of these integrated had marginally better measurement no one could possible detect it. What I do know is that most integrated amps are low power and likely not very useful outside of a small office set up.

I do agree though, that AVRs have inadequate power supplies for the number of amps supplied. That is why I consider them a bad contrivance. But the preouts will be fine if the power amps are not used, at least at power. The best option is an AVP and external amps, but that gets too expensive for many, so that is the way the industry got geared unfortunately. I have to say that the architecture of receivers is not conducive to longevity, but that seems to not register high on purchasers priorities.

 

[3db]

. I have to say that the architecture of receivers is not conducive to longevity, but that seems to not register high on purchasers priorities.

I have to call BS on this. All of my Yamaha AVRs (which are TOTL or one or two models down) except for the RX-V1800 were bought used. My eldest is an RX-V1500, pre HDMI and it still functions flawlessly. If used smartly with plenty of ventilation and driving loads they were designed for, they will last just as long as any separates piece.

The problem is not the AVR but the user who is either not aware or doesn't care. My picture anology
is ..

 

[cpp]

I have to say that the architecture of receivers is not conducive to longevity

Not sure I agree. My Denon 4311ci which I purchased new Dec 2010 when it came out. It has been used everyday since in our main TV/HT arrangement. That's a pretty long time.

 

[dolynick]

I have to call BS on this. All of my Yamaha AVRs (which are TOTL or one or two models down) except for the RX-V1800 were bought used. My eldest is an RX-V1500, pre HDMI and it still functions flawlessly. If used smartly with plenty of ventilation and driving loads they were designed for, they will last just as long as any separates piece.

There's a RX-V800 sitting not far behind me that is still working fine. The physical volume knob has got a bit wonky (probably just some dust in it) but other than that, no issues. I've decomissioned it in the last year or two as I moved to separates in that system but it could easily go elsewhere if I had the need. There's an even older Yamaha still pulling duty at the family cabin. I can't recall any AVR I've owned ever actually failing. Even my brother's old Sony from 20 years ago still works.

I'd agree that they aren't built as robustly (in terms of power supply, etc) as a well designed power amp or integrated tends to be, but I haven't experienced any real longevity issues with them either. Maybe I've just been lucky with the models I've used but they tend to get replaced due to features (video connections, surround codecs, etc) rather failures.

 

[mono-bloc]

What I do know is that most integrated amps are low power and likely not very useful outside of a small office set up.

There really is no answer to that stupidity. What your saying is all valve (tube) and high quality integrated amplification are only good for a desk top system. While I might agree on some brands, The influx of cheap Chinese models is a prime example of this, Quality and limited production is a completely different story. As to the question of measurements, Really there only as good as the person taking them, And to date no reviewer, has ever said measurements can be twisted round to suit the manufacturer,. If he wants to keep his job. Plus the fact that Jo Average while he might read the results, has very little knowledge of what he's reading. And all the measurements in the world are never going to tell you how it sounds As I said earlier you have limited to no knowledge about what's out there. I could rattle of many high quality brands and models till the cows come home. But trying to communicate with you is a complete waste of computer ink.. Lets just say quality costs, You will remember years ago about the problems of HDMI boards, and the complete failure of the manufacturer to admit there was a problem. Until it got right out of hand and they were forced to rectify the problem.. Mass production does have it's problems, especially when your working on a maximum profit from production. AVR's are a prime example of this, some models are updated or upgraded yearly. As for the longliverty of an integrated amp, My second system consists of Rotel, Pre, Power, and CD, It's been running for close to 25 years. I also have an old Rotel RX 203, which I got from a charity auction, must be close to 40 years ago and it came with a pension card. I really forget what I paid, But it runs the sound of a a TV in a back room. Actually it's outlived a wife and a couple of girl friends.

 

[lovinthehd]

An analog integrated amp is just not very interesting. The old ones were receivers without tuners more than anything special and that hasn't changed much over the years. While there are a few expensive integrated amps with a better power section, you can do better with separates for the money and retain more flexibility. Most simply don't have impressive power supplies nor amps. Some like the aesthetics of an integrated amp, especially it seems with vu meters, but it could be in a closet for all I care about a box of electronics.

LOL as to monoblockhead's electrical chops compared to TLS....LOL, no contest. monoblockhead seems wrapped up in silly high end gear for the most part, seems he trades in the used market somehow....

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh man. That troll got exactly what he thought would happen. He knew exactly how to push those buttons.

Gotta give him that.