Maine’s top election official removes Trump from 2024 primary ballot

jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The decisions have been put on hold, pending appeals, so there is no end run around voters. You're tilting at windmills. And, nobody else here is butthurt or bugged, except you.
I'm not surprised at this outcome. Others, shockingly, are surprised that this wouldn't make it to SCOTUS. AGAIN if SCOTUS declines or upholds the lower courts I'm OK with that. But I'm hesitant about the ambiguity of it. Already people are saying that SCOTUS is a 'packed bench'. Well if that's the case same can be said for CO and NH.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Ah, yes, the ever popular Humpty Dumpty approach. Declare that words mean what you say they mean, then declare victory.

>>>‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean–neither more nor less.’

‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean different things–that’s all.’

‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master–that’s all’<<<



Your statements are directly contrary to Trump's arguments in the petition for cert, but hey, knock yourself out.

From Trumps petition: "President Trump falls outside the scope of section 3. Second, the Colorado Supreme Court erred in how it described President Trump’s role in the events of January 6, 2021. It was not “insurrection” and President Trump in no way “engaged” in “insurrection.” Third, the proceedings in the Colorado Supreme Court were premature and violated the Electors Clause. Finally, there are many other grounds for reversal . . . "

The petition is is actually quite well written. Which is another way of saying it was not written by you.
This is part of the due process portion idiot.... AND to use your own citation: "Finally, there are many other grounds for reversal . . ." gee I wonder what those grounds could be?
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I'm not surprised at this outcome. Others, shockingly, are surprised that this wouldn't make it to SCOTUS. AGAIN if SCOTUS declines or upholds the lower courts I'm OK with that. But I'm hesitant about the ambiguity of it. Already people are saying that SCOTUS is a 'packed bench'. Well if that's the case same can be said for CO and NH.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
Agreed. The ambiguity of the law way back when applied today.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
This is part of the due process portion idiot.... AND to use your own citation: "Finally, there are many other grounds for reversal . . ." gee I wonder what those grounds could be?
No. Read the cert for petition.

You can keep saying X is Y but you continue to be wrong.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
No. Read the cert for petition.

You can keep saying X is Y but you continue to be wrong.
Dude, the CO supreme court dissent opinion specifically touches on Due Process...

"Samour wrote that the decision to bar Trump from the primary ballot "flies in the face of the due process doctrine." The litigation in the case, Samour continued, "fell woefully short of what due process demands."

I think it will end up at SCOTUS. Maybe you can present the plaintiffs side of it with your Cracker Jacks law degree.
 
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isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
I'm apparently supposed to pretend that I can't read, suspend all logic, and ignore all knowledge I've gained in 30 years of practicing law.

Nah.
Yep...there is a difference between an assault and a barrage.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Dude, the CO supreme court dissent opinion specifically touches on Due Process...

"Samour wrote that the decision to bar Trump from the primary ballot "flies in the face of the due process doctrine." The litigation in the case, Samour continued, "fell woefully short of what due process demands."

I think it will end up at SCOTUS. Maybe you can present the plaintiffs side of it with your Cracker Jacks law degree.
Hey, you actually read something!

Yes, that was a dissenting judge. The Colorado Supreme Court considered Trump's due process arguments under the 14 amendment (not the 5th amendment) and ruled against Trump.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I'm apparently supposed to pretend that I can't read, suspend all logic, and ignore all knowledge I've gained in 30 years of practicing law.

Nah.
I love you 'legal beagles', you're always 'practicing but never perfecting' ! ......... :eek:
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey, you actually read something!

Yes, that was a dissenting judge. The Colorado Supreme Court considered Trump's due process arguments under the 14 amendment (not the 5th amendment) and ruled against Trump.
Yep, this is not a criminal case where he might be in jail.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Hey, you actually read something!

Yes, that was a dissenting judge. The Colorado Supreme Court considered Trump's due process arguments under the 14 amendment (not the 5th amendment) and ruled against Trump.
Perhaps you can explain the 14th and how if you don't need a conviction how that applies.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Perhaps you can explain the 14th and how if you don't need a conviction how that applies.
Whether or not a criminal conviction is required is an open question. There are plenty of arguments both ways.

I'm skeptical that a criminal conviction is required. A number of people who had not been convicted of a crime were denied office shortly after 14th was ratified and no court ruled that this was improper.

Here's a list


You can see that in at least one case a state supreme court ruled that section 3 is not a criminal punishment but a qualification for office. In another case a county sheriff was booted from office under a state law without being convicted of a crime. An appeal to the Supreme Court was denied on the basis that the sheriff did not raise a Constitutional issue in the state court, and the Supreme Court therefore lacked jurisdiction:


None of these cases made it to the Supreme Court on the merits, so they are not binding precedent. On the other hand, these cases do suggest that the 14th Amendment was not interpreted as requiring a criminal conviction.

My rudimentary understanding of the post civil war era is that people were not anxious to criminally convict everyone on the confederate side, they just didn't want them to have positions of power in the very government they had fought against.

If a criminal conviction is required, they would have first had to convict someone and lock them up before they could declare the person ineligible for office.

It appears to be primarily a question of loyalty to the Constitution as a requirement to hold office in a position of power in the government.

As a practical matter, requiring a criminal conviction would also require determining what a criminal conviction actually means and how it would apply in the context of the 14th Amendment. Does it mean a final ruling after all appeals are exhausted? Is a conviction at trial sufficient?

If a final ruling is required, what if Trump had led an armed group on January 6 and he himself opened fire on Congress with a full auto machine gun on live TV? Would he be able to hold office under the 14th Amendment until he exhausted all of his appeals 20 years from now? Do all of the requirements for a criminal conviction automatically apply to one's qualifications to hold office?

Having said that, there is no controlling Supreme Court case so it's an open question. There are plenty of arguments to the effect that a criminal conviction is required.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Whether or not a criminal conviction is required is an open question. There are plenty of arguments both ways.

I'm skeptical that a criminal conviction is required. A number of people who had not been convicted of a crime were denied office shortly after 14th was ratified and no court ruled that this was improper.

Here's a list


You can see that in at least one case a state supreme court ruled that section 3 is not a criminal punishment but a qualification for office. In another case a county sheriff was booted from office under a state law without being convicted of a crime. An appeal to the Supreme Court was denied on the basis that the sheriff did not raise a Constitutional issue in the state court, and the Supreme Court therefore lacked jurisdiction:


None of these cases made it to the Supreme Court on the merits, so they are not binding precedent. On the other hand, these cases do suggest that the 14th Amendment was not interpreted as requiring a criminal conviction.

My rudimentary understanding of the post civil war era is that people were not anxious to criminally convict everyone on the confederate side, they just didn't want them to have positions of power in the very government they had fought against.

If a criminal conviction is required, they would have first had to convict someone and lock them up before they could declare the person ineligible for office.

It appears to be primarily a question of loyalty to the Constitution as a requirement to hold office in a position of power in the government.

As a practical matter, requiring a criminal conviction would also require determining what a criminal conviction actually means and how it would apply in the context of the 14th Amendment. Does it mean a final ruling after all appeals are exhausted? Is a conviction at trial sufficient?

If a final ruling is required, what if Trump had led an armed group on January 6 and he himself opened fire on Congress with a full auto machine gun on live TV? Would he be able to hold office under the 14th Amendment until he exhausted all of his appeals 20 years from now? Do all of the requirements for a criminal conviction automatically apply to one's qualifications to hold office?

Having said that, there is no controlling Supreme Court case so it's an open question. There are plenty of arguments to the effect that a criminal conviction is required.
A well known very conservative retired judge Michael Luddig, US Court of Appeals, must have a number of interviews on TV video explaining that this is a self-executing
article, as is the age and other qualifications are. The people understood what that 14th back in 1877 on was. .
He is the one who told Pence what he must do and what the constitution demand.

judge michael luddig - Google Search

But then no one can overrule the supreme court.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
A well known very conservative retired judge Michael Luddig, US Court of Appeals, must have a number of interviews on TV video explaining that this is a self-executing
article, as is the age and other qualifications are. The people understood what that 14th back in 1877 on was. .
He is the one who told Pence what he must do and what the constitution demand.

judge michael luddig - Google Search

But then no one can overrule the supreme court.
I tend to agree with a lot of Luttig's legal reasoning, but it is certainly true that the Supreme Court doesn't have to agree with Luttig's position.

I wouldn't go quite so far as saying that no one can overrule the Supreme Court, at least not in the absolute sense of the word. The Supreme Court can overrule prior Supreme Court decisions, and Supreme Court decisions can also be overturned or overridden (not quite the same thing as overruled, but similar result) by Constitutional Amendments or new federal laws.

There are basically two things that the U.S. Supreme Court does. The first is construing the meaning of federal laws passed by Congress (statutes), and the second is construing the Constitution as it applies to both federal and state laws (state supreme courts have the final "say" with regards to interpreting state law, so the U.S. Supreme Court accepts state Supreme Court decisions interpreting state law*)

With regards to interpreting the Constitution, a Supreme Court decision can be overturned by Constitutional Amendment. The 13 and 14th Amendments are examples of this:

>>>The 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution overturned the 1857 Supreme Court decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford. The 13th Amendment outlawed slavery, and the 14th Amendment granted citizenship to all people born in the United States.<<<

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/supreme-court/13-worst-supreme-court-decisions-of-all-time/

Congress can override rulings concerning interpretations of federal law by passing a new law (provided the interpretation itself is not based on a Consitutional issue). The tobacco laws are an example of this:

>>>A bare majority of Supreme Court justices in 2000 ruled that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) lacked the authority to regulate tobacco. The Clinton-era case arose when the FDA in 1996 enacted regulations that aimed to curb smoking by kids and adolescents.

The court, in a 5-4 ruling, held that the FDA erred by defining nicotine as a drug under the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act.

Nine years later, Congress responded by passing the bipartisan Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, which for the first time empowered the federal government to regulate cigarettes and other tobacco products.<<<


*In the Colorado case, one of the dissenting judges argued that the majority incorrectly construed Colorado state law:

>>>Justice Berkenkotter dissented on similar grounds,29 and
she also attacked the majority’s false and atextual claim
that section 1-4-1203(2)(a) allows only “qualified” candi-
dates to appear on a party’s presidential primary ballot.<<<


This is a dead issue on appeal because the U.S. Supreme Court is required to follow the majority opinion interpreting the qualified candidate requirement of Colorado law.

Of course, the U.S. Supreme Court could nevertheless hold that the interpretation applied by the Colorado Supreme Court leads to an unconstitutional result.

I suspect the U.S. Supreme Court will find a way to overturn the Colorado Supreme Court decision, but it's far from clear what the basis might be. Many of the arguments in the media for overturning it are policy-based. There's no doubt that the U.S. Supreme Court is (for better or worse) influenced by policy considerations, but it still needs to reach the policy result it wants based on the law (or a fig leaf it can label "law" in an effort to avoid embarrassing itself).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I tend to agree with a lot of Luttig's legal reasoning, but it is certainly true that the Supreme Court doesn't have to agree with Luttig's position.

I wouldn't go quite so far as saying that no one can overrule the Supreme Court, at least not in the absolute sense of the word. The Supreme Court can overrule prior Supreme Court decisions, and Supreme Court decisions can also be overturned or overridden (not quite the same thing as overruled, but similar result) by Constitutional Amendments or new federal laws.
....
Many thanks.
Of course, they don't have to agree with Luttig. ;) And doubt they will, unfortunately.
Yes, all those ways to change the supreme court decision takes a good bit of time.
 

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