To LFE +MAIN or not

[Danzilla31]

Hey guys so I finally bought my used gear for the bedroom now that I finally made up my mind which speakers to keep

I got a great bundled deal on a used Marantz 7702mkii in great condition and an outlaw audio 5000x amplifier

I'm running the 3 JBL studio 698's paired with an Emotiva XS15 subwoofer for a 3.1 setup

I've mainly got it set up using Audyssey to EQ Audyssey nailed distances and levels trims perfectly

Set up the crossovers and they were great Audyssey set the speakers as large which is correct after playing around with multiple settings those JBL 698 are true performers to 30hz in my room they only drop off at around 27hz

Audyssey did a great job integrating the sub with the mains at full range and using all 4 as multi point sources for the bass which sounds better in that room.
It did a great job doing this but getting rid of boomy bloated excess bass, the bass is tight punch detailed vocals and midrange are great I prefer Audyssey on vs having it off.

The prepro is using Audyssey with audyssey multieq xt32

Unfortunately this model is not compatible with the editor app but I was still able to get great results

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large

This works fine with music sources and it sounds great with Netflix or Prime with movies. But I'm concerned that running the speakers in this fashion will be too much for them with the bass in LFE +mains because the bass in multi surround formats will be substantially boosted

I know the studio 698 are potent speakers but are they that potent?

Also I found when I raised the crossovers to say 80 hz since Audyssey set it up full range that the missing adjustments from 80 hz on down cause the changes Audyssey made to the bass soundstage and imaging all to suffer

Would I be able to set the bass to LFE only, speakers to small, crossovers to 40hz, and run Audyssey and get the benefits of the changes Audyssey made without over driving the JBL 698 so I don't have to switch back and forth between LFE + Mains to LFE only when switching between multi surround formats and PCM sources.

Any help and feedback on this from you guys would be greatly appreciated

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?

 

[j_garcia]

Do you have a programmable remote or phone app that you could use to switch it on for music and off for movies?

 

[Danzilla31]

Do you have a programmable remote or phone app that you could use to switch it on for music and off for movies?

I have the Marantz app on my tablet which works great with the 7702 I can toogle it on and off no problem

 

[lovinthehd]

Personally I don't use LFE+Main, and get better results with a fairly high crossover, but wonder if the Marantz pre-pros have the quick select feature like the D&M avrs do? You could use that I'm pretty sure to have the different setttings you want. A quick search seems to indicate on the Marantz it's called the smart select function....

 

[gene]

Hey guys so I finally bought my used gear for the bedroom now that I finally made up my mind which speakers to keep

I got a great bundled deal on a used Marantz 7702mkii in great condition and an outlaw audio 5000x amplifier

I'm running the 3 JBL studio 698's paired with an Emotiva XS15 subwoofer for a 3.1 setup

I've mainly got it set up using Audyssey to EQ Audyssey nailed distances and levels trims perfectly

Set up the crossovers and they were great Audyssey set the speakers as large which is correct after playing around with multiple settings those JBL 698 are true performers to 30hz in my room they only drop off at around 27hz

Audyssey did a great job integrating the sub with the mains at full range and using all 4 as multi point sources for the bass which sounds better in that room.
It did a great job doing this but getting rid of boomy bloated excess bass, the bass is tight punch detailed vocals and midrange are great I prefer Audyssey on vs having it off.

The prepro is using Audyssey with audyssey multieq xt32

Unfortunately this model is not compatible with the editor app but I was still able to get great results

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large

This works fine with music sources and it sounds great with Netflix or Prime with movies. But I'm concerned that running the speakers in this fashion will be too much for them with the bass in LFE +mains because the bass in multi surround formats will be substantially boosted

I know the studio 698 are potent speakers but are they that potent?

Also I found when I raised the crossovers to say 80 hz since Audyssey set it up full range that the missing adjustments from 80 hz on down cause the changes Audyssey made to the bass soundstage and imaging all to suffer

Would I be able to set the bass to LFE only, speakers to small, crossovers to 40hz, and run Audyssey and get the benefits of the changes Audyssey made without over driving the JBL 698 so I don't have to switch back and forth between LFE + Mains to LFE only when switching between multi surround formats and PCM sources.

Any help and feedback on this from you guys would be greatly appreciated

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?

LFE+ Main does NOT route LFE to your mains. It just copies bass from the mains to the sub channel(s). If you've got good integration of the mains set large with the subs, then use LFE+Main. You do get a doubling of bass at common frequencies but Audyssey, if it's working correctly, should flatten out the response. If not, then set your mains to 80Hz and let the subs handle all the bass below that. I don't recommend a 40Hz HPF bc in 2CH your subs will only play 40Hz and below and you loose the modal control benefits of multi-sub above 40Hz.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys so I finally bought my used gear for the bedroom now that I finally made up my mind which speakers to keep

I got a great bundled deal on a used Marantz 7702mkii in great condition and an outlaw audio 5000x amplifier

I'm running the 3 JBL studio 698's paired with an Emotiva XS15 subwoofer for a 3.1 setup

I've mainly got it set up using Audyssey to EQ Audyssey nailed distances and levels trims perfectly

Set up the crossovers and they were great Audyssey set the speakers as large which is correct after playing around with multiple settings those JBL 698 are true performers to 30hz in my room they only drop off at around 27hz

Audyssey did a great job integrating the sub with the mains at full range and using all 4 as multi point sources for the bass which sounds better in that room.
It did a great job doing this but getting rid of boomy bloated excess bass, the bass is tight punch detailed vocals and midrange are great I prefer Audyssey on vs having it off.

The prepro is using Audyssey with audyssey multieq xt32

Unfortunately this model is not compatible with the editor app but I was still able to get great results

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large

This works fine with music sources and it sounds great with Netflix or Prime with movies. But I'm concerned that running the speakers in this fashion will be too much for them with the bass in LFE +mains because the bass in multi surround formats will be substantially boosted

I know the studio 698 are potent speakers but are they that potent?

Also I found when I raised the crossovers to say 80 hz since Audyssey set it up full range that the missing adjustments from 80 hz on down cause the changes Audyssey made to the bass soundstage and imaging all to suffer

Would I be able to set the bass to LFE only, speakers to small, crossovers to 40hz, and run Audyssey and get the benefits of the changes Audyssey made without over driving the JBL 698 so I don't have to switch back and forth between LFE + Mains to LFE only when switching between multi surround formats and PCM sources.

Any help and feedback on this from you guys would be greatly appreciated

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?

Don't worry about the drivers. Using LFE+Mains is the way most systems should be run. JBL did not spec. the 3db point of those speakers, so I don't know if 36Hz is the 3db down point or 6db down or anything else for that matter.

However power demands increase fast above 40 Hz, which is not what you will glean form sub enthusiasts where 20Hz and often below is the band where they obsess. That is actually really daft. Of the acoustic instruments only the pipe organ goes below 27 Hz. So using LFE + main really helps increase power handling and usually results in a much smoother response.

The only speakers I crossover in my HT room are the small ceiling speakers. I run my mids in the mid lines full range, my center, surrounds and rear backs. It is usually best to set the subs to 50% above a speakers f3 as a starting point and it works well. The main mid lines have an F3 of 42 Hz, and a cross to blend with the LF lines at 60 Hz works well. The center has an F3 and I run the blend at 80 Hz for those. The surrounds have an F3 of 52 Hz and so they are at 80 Hz also. The rear backs 27 Hz
are potent speakers but I blend them at 60 Hz.

This is all done with measurements to get the best in room response as well as careful listening. As you know I do not use Audyssey or any room correction system. However, BSC is carefully tuned to the room. The BSC of the mains and center is continuously variable and can be precisely instrument set. The surrounds have two position switch BSC, and the rear backs can be adjusted via the active crossover, since the woofers cross at 180 Hz via an active crossover.

The point is that I have not had a driver fail from this set up and I doubt you will either. I have driven this system hard for 18 years now, and played huge organs at intensities they would play at in their environments.

As I have said before practically all speaker designs are deficient in peak mid range output, especially from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz or so. I make sure this rig is not.

I also use LFE + Min in my two channel family room system.

The in wall system I do crossover, but that is to help with the flat wall reinforcement and I have moved to essentially making that a three way system for the left and right and a four way for the center, using the 10" TL sub as a common sub/woofer. This has really helped with the large/wall baffle problems. I have that system sounding really natural now with excellent natural speech.

So don't worry about using LFE + Main. That should be used far more often than it is.

 

[Danzilla31]

LFE+ Main does NOT route LFE to your mains. It just copies bass from the mains to the sub channel(s). If you've got good integration of the mains set large with the subs, then use LFE+Main. You do get a doubling of bass at common frequencies but Audyssey, if it's working correctly, should flatten out the response. If not, then set your mains to 80Hz and let the subs handle all the bass below that. I don't recommend a 40Hz HPF bc in 2CH your subs will only play 40Hz and below and you loose the modal control benefits of multi-sub above 40Hz.

This is awesome advice thank you Gene and happy holidays to you!!!!

 

[Danzilla31]

Don't worry about the drivers. Using LFE+Mains is the way most systems should be run. JBL did not spec. the 3db point of those speakers, so I don't know if 36Hz is the 3db down point or 6db down or anything else for that matter.

However power demands increase fast above 40 Hz, which is not what you will glean form sub enthusiasts where 20Hz and often below is the band where they obsess. That is actually really daft. Of the acoustic instruments only the pipe organ goes below 27 Hz. So using LFE + main really helps increase power handling and usually results in a much smoother response.

The only speakers I crossover in my HT room are the small ceiling speakers. I run my mids in the mid lines full range, my center, surrounds and rear backs. It is usually best to set the subs to 50% above a speakers f3 as a starting point and it works well. The main mid lines have an F3 of 42 Hz, and a cross to blend with the LF lines at 60 Hz works well. The center has an F3 and I run the blend at 80 Hz for those. The surrounds have an F3 of 52 Hz and so they are at 80 Hz also. The rear backs 27 Hz
are potent speakers but I blend them at 60 Hz.

This is all done with measurements to get the best in room response as well as careful listening. As you know I do not use Audyssey or any room correction system. However, BSC is carefully tuned to the room. The BSC of the mains and center is continuously variable and can be precisely instrument set. The surrounds have two position switch BSC, and the rear backs can be adjusted via the active crossover, since the woofers cross at 180 Hz via an active crossover.

The point is that I have not had a driver fail from this set up and I doubt you will either. I have driven this system hard for 18 years now, and played huge organs at intensities they would play at in their environments.

As I have said before practically all speaker designs are deficient in peak mid range output, especially from 80 Hz to 1500 Hz or so. I make sure this rig is not.

I also use LFE + Min in my two channel family room system.

The in wall system I do crossover, but that is to help with the flat wall reinforcement and I have moved to essentially making that a three way system for the left and right and a four way for the center, using the 10" TL sub as a common sub/woofer. This has really helped with the large/wall baffle problems. I have that system sounding really natural now with excellent natural speech.

So don't worry about using LFE + Main. That should be used far more often than it is.

Thank you so much you and @gene covered it perfectly happy holidays to everyone!!!! Thank you as well @lovinthehd and @j_garcia!

 

[Danzilla31]

It's great to know I can use it because in that room integrating all the speakers and the subs with Audyssey dialing it in works awesome.

That room has a very difficult room response for just one sub to handle but when integrated with towers it sounds great

 

[lovinthehd]

It's great to know I can use it because in that room integrating all the speakers and the subs with Audyssey dialing it in works awesome.

That room has a very difficult room response for just one sub to handle but when integrated with towers it sounds great

So how long will the room have only one sub?

 

[Danzilla31]

So how long will the room have only one sub?

Not long you know me

 

[lovinthehd]

Also I found when I raised the crossovers to say 80 hz since Audyssey set it up full range that the missing adjustments from 80 hz on down cause the changes Audyssey made to the bass soundstage and imaging all to suffer

Meant to mention, if Audyssey sets speakers to large, there is no missing eq above that point....it's just lowering crossovers in Audyssey that leaves a gap in eq....

 

[TLS Guy]

So how long will the room have only one sub?

If he is happy with what he has now, he does not need another sub. Quite honestly one sub usually has enough power the problem is getting and even room response.

 

[Danzilla31]

If he is happy with what he has now, he does not need another sub. Quite honestly one sub usually has enough power the problem is getting and even room response.

Yeah that sub is more then enough but you never know I am an Audioholic!

 

[lovinthehd]

If he is happy with what he has now, he does not need another sub. Quite honestly one sub usually has enough power the problem is getting and even room response.

It hasn't particularly stopped him before Could be useful, but cost and placement options can always get in the way, too....

 

[Trebdp83]

LFE+ Main does NOT route LFE to your mains. It just copies bass from the mains to the sub channel(s). If you've got good integration of the mains set large with the subs, then use LFE+Main. You do get a doubling of bass at common frequencies but Audyssey, if it's working correctly, should flatten out the response. If not, then set your mains to 80Hz and let the subs handle all the bass below that. I don't recommend a 40Hz HPF bc in 2CH your subs will only play 40Hz and below and you loose the modal control benefits of multi-sub above 40Hz.

This really is a great post and many don't quite get what they’re actually doing when setting their HPF at 40Hz and a Small Speaker setting. With two channel signals, they are asking their speakers to dig more deeply than many speakers should be digging at higher volume while also cutting their subs off at the pass. They might go nuts and think there must be a placement issue somewhere because the bass isn’t thunderous.

The LFE+Main feature is one I wish I currently had on my Onkyos. When Front Speakers are set to Full Band I can turn Double Bass ON and duplicate the signal for the Subs in Stereo mode but, I cannot get a signal to the subs playing two channel signals in Direct mode. So, using Direct mode just for kicks, the Fronts get a full signal that they cannot do much with on the low end and the subs are locked out.

If one is using truly full range and robust speakers with subs, they can play around with LFE+Main when Fronts are set to Large/Full Band. Everybody else should be setting the Fronts to Small and be mindful of the HPF. When the HPF is set too low, the bass output often seems too low for those wanting more bump. They compensate by turning up the volume and some end up on forums such as this one complaining about speakers and/or receivers blowing up while chasing the bass dragon.

 

[PENG]

Set up the crossovers and they were great Audyssey set the speakers as large which is correct after playing around with multiple settings those JBL 698 are true performers to 30hz in my room they only drop off at around 27hz

It depends on what kind of sub(s) you are using with the JBL 698, if the sub is good, such as the SVS PB2000, or even the PB1000, it will be better to set them to small. That way you will get smoother integration, and the 698 can be crossed at 80 Hz, allowing their 8 in drivers to produce cleaner sound in the lower mid bass and mid bass.

Audyssey did a great job integrating the sub with the mains at full range and using all 4 as multi point sources for the bass which sounds better in that room.

It is hard to believe Audyssey could integrate the sub with the mains at full range, they claimed that, and that bias people to think it sounds better. If you use REW to see the actual performance, I will bet it won't integrated as good as setting the JBL to small with crossover at 80 Hz, okay may be 70 Hz.

It did a great job doing this but getting rid of boomy bloated excess bass, the bass is tight punch detailed vocals and midrange are great I prefer Audyssey on vs having it off.

I'll be brutally honest, the way you describe the sound is not much difference that people who said the same about hearing such differences between dacs, preamps and amps even when such difference disappear if they compare without knowing which one they are listening to. It is 90% subjective, and biased to the nth degree, sorry! Theory, and verified time and again by measuring, as not really what's happening. But if you prefer the "sound" that way, then stick with it. Other people may prefer the other way, all good in the end, there is no right or wrong, only more accurate or less accurate.

The prepro is using Audyssey with audyssey multieq xt32

Unfortunately this model is not compatible with the editor app but I was still able to get great results

It sucks not being able to use the app, but there are still things you can do, such as trying the reference curve and the flat curve, using L/R bypass etc. Some people don't like the MRC, that without the app you cannot disable it, but many speakers are not affected, or just affected slightly by it, so if you are getting good results then it is not a big deal for you.

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large

This works fine with music sources and it sounds great with Netflix or Prime with movies. But I'm concerned that running the speakers in this fashion will be too much for them with the bass in LFE +mains because the bass in multi surround formats will be substantially boosted

I am not sure if I understand your question, but keep in mind that the LFE signal get routed to the subwoofer channel only, regardless of the "large" vs "small" setting for the main speakers. You only get the LFE signal routed to the mains if they are set to "None".

I know the studio 698 are potent speakers but are they that potent?

Hard to say, because "potent" is a relative term. If you compare it to a 8 or 10" $500 sub, I would say the Studio 698 are quite potent, but compare that to a $1,000 12 inch sub, may be not and definitely can't compare with any SVS, PSA, Rythmik, HSU kind of 12 inch boxes.

Also I found when I raised the crossovers to say 80 hz since Audyssey set it up full range that the missing adjustments from 80 hz on down cause the changes Audyssey made to the bass soundstage and imaging all to suffer

No comment on that, as again it is your subjective impression, if I were there I might say the same, or different than yours.

Would I be able to set the bass to LFE only, speakers to small, crossovers to 40hz, and run Audyssey and get the benefits of the changes Audyssey made without over driving the JBL 698 so I don't have to switch back and forth between LFE + Mains to LFE only when switching between multi surround formats and PCM sources.

You can do it but there's no use because when you run Audyssey, it will reset everything based on the data collected by the mic. So no matter what you do, when it's done, it (not Audyssey, but Denon) will still set the 698 to "large" based on the so called F3 (ie. the - 3B point).

So, just run Audyssey, let it does its things, and when it's done you go back to the speaker menu and set the 698 to small and crossover 80 Hz. If you use REW to check, you may find that setting to 60 Hz is fine, may even be better, but if you are going just go by ear, I would say 80 Hz is the best choice, that's what Gene would recommend for sure. Going by ear is really cheating yourself as what you will hear would be 99% biased so how good or bad it is, depends on what you mind has already been biased to, or against.

Just by reading my response now, is going to biased you for sure.

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?
[/QUOTE]

I did read the specs of your speakers, even the service manual of the 7702 MkII, so I took the time to try and help, please do keep in mind that things I said in this post is just my opinion based on my own knowledge and experience. Not everything is black and white, and in many case no right or wrong.

P.S. I just realized many have spoken, including Gene, though I don't see the need to delete my post, hopefully it aligned with Gene's on the important points lol...

 

[Danzilla31]

It depends on what kind of sub(s) you are using with the JBL 698, if the sub is good, such as the SVS PB2000, or even the PB1000, it will be better to set them to small. That way you will get smoother integration, and the 698 can be crossed at 80 Hz, allowing their 8 in drivers to produce cleaner sound in the lower mid bass and mid bass.



It is hard to believe Audyssey could integrate the sub with the mains at full range, they claimed that, and that bias people to think it sounds better. If you use REW to see the actual performance, I will bet it won't integrated as good as setting the JBL to small with crossover at 80 Hz, okay may be 70 Hz.



I'll be brutally honest, the way you describe the sound is not much difference that people who said the same about hearing such differences between dacs, preamps and amps even when such difference disappear if they compare without knowing which one they are listening to. It is 90% subjective, and biased to the nth degree, sorry! Theory, and verified time and again by measuring, as not really what's happening. But if you prefer the "sound" that way, then stick with it. Other people may prefer the other way, all good in the end, there is no right or wrong, only more accurate or less accurate.



It sucks not being able to use the app, but there are still things you can do, such as trying the reference curve and the flat curve, using L/R bypass etc. Some people don't like the MRC, that without the app you cannot disable it, but many speakers are not affected, or just affected slightly by it, so if you are getting good results then it is not a big deal for you.

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large



I am not sure if I understand your question, but keep in mind that the LFE signal get routed to the subwoofer channel only, regardless of the "large" vs "small" setting for the main speakers. You only get the LFE signal routed to the mains if they are set to "None".



Hard to say, because "potent" is a relative term. If you compare it to a 8 or 10" $500 sub, I would say the Studio 698 are quite potent, but compare that to a $1,000 12 inch sub, may be not and definitely can't compare with any SVS, PSA, Rythmik, HSU kind of 12 inch boxes.



No comment on that, as again it is your subjective impression, if I were there I might say the same, or different than yours.



You can do it but there's no use because when you run Audyssey, it will reset everything based on the data collected by the mic. So no matter what you do, when it's done, it (not Audyssey, but Denon) will still set the 698 to "large" based on the so called F3 (ie. the - 3B point).

So, just run Audyssey, let it does its things, and when it's done you go back to the speaker menu and set the 698 to small and crossover 80 Hz. If you use REW to check, you may find that setting to 60 Hz is fine, may even be better, but if you are going just go by ear, I would say 80 Hz is the best choice, that's what Gene would recommend for sure. Going by ear is really cheating yourself as what you will hear would be 99% biased so how good or bad it is, depends on what you mind has already been biased to, or against.

Just by reading my response now, is going to biased you for sure.

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?

The information you gave is very helpful thank you for taking the time to look up the information on the speakers and my Reciever and share your thoughts and experience on this.

Im still experimenting with different settings Audyssey on and off flat and reference using different songs and movies I'm familiar with

I will do so for a few weeks letting my ears really get used to the changes before I settle in on what I like best

As far as my impressions as I've continued to listen their is an A and B difference between Audyssey off and on. As much as I like what Audyssey does Im also finding there are one or 2 things that I don't like as well. With the editor app I could adjust those to my liking but as you say not as many options to try except the few you mentioned above. It will just take time and REW to narrow in and settle on what I prefer.

I don't know what to tell you on improvements I'm noticing. When I run 3 towers plus a sub in that room I always get better bass response. But it's also been overwhelming in the past. To bloated at certain frequencies and it can muddy up the vocals and details both in the bass and the midrange. This is the second time I've used Audyssey in this room first with a Denon 3600 not the new model but previous generation and now this model of Marantz and both times Audyssey reduced that bloat which appeared to help with the midrange and the bass. I did post measurements on that thread and Audyssey is making measurable and audible changes especially with flattening the bass. Now if what I measured explains what I'm hearing I can't say.

I did like Audyssey with the editor app better but I'll just have to keep experimenting with the options I do have and settle on what I like best

Thanks again for your help I appreciate it!

 

[TLS Guy]

It depends on what kind of sub(s) you are using with the JBL 698, if the sub is good, such as the SVS PB2000, or even the PB1000, it will be better to set them to small. That way you will get smoother integration, and the 698 can be crossed at 80 Hz, allowing their 8 in drivers to produce cleaner sound in the lower mid bass and mid bass.



It is hard to believe Audyssey could integrate the sub with the mains at full range, they claimed that, and that bias people to think it sounds better. If you use REW to see the actual performance, I will bet it won't integrated as good as setting the JBL to small with crossover at 80 Hz, okay may be 70 Hz.



I'll be brutally honest, the way you describe the sound is not much difference that people who said the same about hearing such differences between dacs, preamps and amps even when such difference disappear if they compare without knowing which one they are listening to. It is 90% subjective, and biased to the nth degree, sorry! Theory, and verified time and again by measuring, as not really what's happening. But if you prefer the "sound" that way, then stick with it. Other people may prefer the other way, all good in the end, there is no right or wrong, only more accurate or less accurate.



It sucks not being able to use the app, but there are still things you can do, such as trying the reference curve and the flat curve, using L/R bypass etc. Some people don't like the MRC, that without the app you cannot disable it, but many speakers are not affected, or just affected slightly by it, so if you are getting good results then it is not a big deal for you.

Here's my issue I could use your help with

When I'm running music sources like YouTube or Tidal etc that only put out a PCM signal to upmix not Dolby or Auro or DTS X I need to use LFE+Main to engage the subwoofer because otherwise the bass will not route to the sub with the speakers set to large



I am not sure if I understand your question, but keep in mind that the LFE signal get routed to the subwoofer channel only, regardless of the "large" vs "small" setting for the main speakers. You only get the LFE signal routed to the mains if they are set to "None".



Hard to say, because "potent" is a relative term. If you compare it to a 8 or 10" $500 sub, I would say the Studio 698 are quite potent, but compare that to a $1,000 12 inch sub, may be not and definitely can't compare with any SVS, PSA, Rythmik, HSU kind of 12 inch boxes.



No comment on that, as again it is your subjective impression, if I were there I might say the same, or different than yours.



You can do it but there's no use because when you run Audyssey, it will reset everything based on the data collected by the mic. So no matter what you do, when it's done, it (not Audyssey, but Denon) will still set the 698 to "large" based on the so called F3 (ie. the - 3B point).

So, just run Audyssey, let it does its things, and when it's done you go back to the speaker menu and set the 698 to small and crossover 80 Hz. If you use REW to check, you may find that setting to 60 Hz is fine, may even be better, but if you are going just go by ear, I would say 80 Hz is the best choice, that's what Gene would recommend for sure. Going by ear is really cheating yourself as what you will hear would be 99% biased so how good or bad it is, depends on what you mind has already been biased to, or against.

Just by reading my response now, is going to biased you for sure.

@PENG I know your very familiar with Audyssey any advice you can give me?

I did read the specs of your speakers, even the service manual of the 7702 MkII, so I took the time to try and help, please do keep in mind that things I said in this post is just my opinion based on my own knowledge and experience. Not everything is black and white, and in many case no right or wrong.

P.S. I just realized many have spoken, including Gene, though I don't see the need to delete my post, hopefully it aligned with Gene's on the important points lol...
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I don't think you can be dogmatic about this. I use LFE + main. The system was designed that way. The front three were designed as a unit. The upper lines of the right and left mains and the center speaker are designed with F3 half an octave above the long bass lines, and a driver in the bass lines also carries the BSC of the upper lines, as a power sharing arrangement. So the whole system is designed as an integral unit including the active and passive crossovers. So adding another complete crossover would upset the total design. I just need the lower bass, the LFE and BSC to go to the lower drivers. The concept is following the work of the late John Wright of TDL, who conceived and developed this idea, and it's brilliant. If I put a full crossover at 60 or 80 Hz it would ruin the whole design. It would be missing the crucial dovetailing of the lines.

This leads me to the point I have made before, that the whole system of a generic crossover in the AVR or AVP is actually a bad idea. I believe that the speakers sub and mains anyway, and probably the center should be designed as a functional complete entity. We have gone down the road of a generic LF crossover and I maintain that is suboptimal.

I think this has led us down the road of so called "room correction" with Audyssey and Dirac, and added a less than optimal expensive work arounds.

I don't need those type of systems and engaging them upsets the system. This whole so called room correction is now getting over complex costly and totally out of hand in my view.

As the sources improve, with the development of Atmos, this system can reproduce with literally "being there" accuracy.

I think it is time to take a step back and really look at the systems from the ground up. I have feeling we are headed down the proverbial blind alley.

 

[lovinthehd]

I did read the specs of your speakers, even the service manual of the 7702 MkII, so I took the time to try and help, please do keep in mind that things I said in this post is just my opinion based on my own knowledge and experience. Not everything is black and white, and in many case no right or wrong.

P.S. I just realized many have spoken, including Gene, though I don't see the need to delete my post, hopefully it aligned with Gene's on the important points lol...

I don't think you can be dogmatic about this. I use LFE + main. The system was designed that way. The front three were designed as a unit. The upper lines of the right and left mains and the center speaker are designed with F3 half an octave above the long bass lines, and a driver in the bass lines also carries the BSC of the upper lines, as a power sharing arrangement. So the whole system is designed as an integral unit including the active and passive crossovers. So adding another complete crossover would upset the total design. I just need the lower bass, the LFE and BSC to go to the lower drivers. The concept is following the work of the late John Wright of TDL, who conceived and developed this idea, and it's brilliant. If I put a full crossover at 60 or 80 Hz it would ruin the whole design. It would be missing the crucial dovetailing of the lines.

This leads me to the point I have made before, that the whole system of a generic crossover in the AVR or AVP is actually a bad idea. I believe that the speakers sub and mains anyway, and probably the center should be designed as a functional complete entity. We have gone down the road of a generic LF crossover and I maintain that is suboptimal.

I think this has led us down the road of so called "room correction" with Audyssey and Dirac, and added a less than optimal expensive work arounds.

I don't need those type of systems and engaging them upsets the system. This whole so called room correction is now getting over complex costly and totally out of hand in my view.

As the sources improve, with the development of Atmos, this system can reproduce with literally "being there" accuracy.

I think it is time to take a step back and really look at the systems from the ground up. I have feeling we are headed down the proverbial blind alley.
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How does LFE go to other than the sub, tho?