Rear Heights Placement

[Project SOG]

Hello everyone!
I'm looking to switch my couch, which is a foot away from the wall but the new one will be 4 feet away. My room is a rectangle 20 x 13. For my configuration I use front and rear heights as I watch movies in Atmos and Auro. I'm trying to figure out if my current layout would still work as I have the new couch 4 feet away from the wall or if I need to make changes to the rear heights.

A few questions come to mind and I hope someone can help:

1. The heights that are on the side, should I place those at the back high on the wall and lower back surrounds or will they be too close to each other? Or it wouldn't make a difference?

2. If I do leave the current layout of the side heights, is it necessary to move those forward as I move the couch 4 feet off the wall?

For some reason the photos were not uploading so I created a link for you to see the current layout.

5 new items by Dell Polanco

photos.app.goo.gl

Thanks in advance!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I can’t see the pics for some reason. But from the description, yes. You’d need to move the sides forward. The heights should be fine, and likely better since you’ll be away from the back wall. Not sure why I can’t see pics. Says invalid url.

 

[Project SOG]

I can’t see the pics for some reason. But from the description, yes. You’d need to move the sides forward. The heights should be fine, and likely better since you’ll be away from the back wall. Not sure why I can’t see pics. Says invalid url.

Thank you @William Lemmerhirt for helping me.

Here's the link. Please take a look and let me know what you think. As a novice I'm terrible at explaining the scenario but maybe the visuals can clarify.

5 new items by Dell Polanco

photos.app.goo.gl

Did the link work?

 

[Project SOG]

@William Lemmerhirt did the link not work?

 

[Project SOG]

Any thoughts on this guys?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep it did. Just haven’t had a chance to dig into this. On the surface, the sides are much too far forward but I see doors that are problematic. Ideally they’d be at 90° so moving the couch forward will definitely help that. Also the mains should be farther apart but there are windows there.
As for the side heights, I would leave them. Iirc you were going for an Atmos/Auro hybrid. How’s that been working? I’ll try to dive a little deeper shortly.

 

[Project SOG]

Thank you bud for the insight, I really appreciate it.
Yeah with the mains I kind of had to work with what I got due to the windows. They are a little over 7 feet apart. Once I push the couch forward 4 feet away from the wall, that would put me about 8 feet away from the mains from the MLP.

I like the hybrid set up because not everything I watch has Atmos so I use it as an opportunity to use Auro. And when a movie has Atmos then I'll watch it with that format. So I like having the options.

In terms of the heights on the sides, I was thinking that when I push the couch forward, that maybe the sound performance wouldn't be the same because the couch would be pushed forward but side heights would remain there?

The other alternative is to lower the back surrounds (currently at 6 feet from the floor) and place the side heights above them instead of leaving them on the sides, this way it can mimic the speaker configuration. But not sure if it would be better or not. What do you think?

Also, when you say the sides do you mean the surrounds on the sides not the back surrounds?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes when I say sides, I mean side surrounds. I would keep your plan to lower the rear surrounds once you move the couch. IMO they’re too high anyway, but with the couch on the wall, it probably makes sense. As far as the side heights, I’d leave them. They should be behind the plane of the listener anyways.

 

[Project SOG]

As always @William Lemmerhirt I appreciate your help.

When it comes to the side heights, what's the reason you would oppose to have them as rear heights instead?

 

[ryanosaur]

Curious how you have the Side Heights set up at the AVR?

Do you have them set as Top Front or Top Back?

If you have them as Rear Height, you should absolutely move them to correct placement..

For the true Rear Speakers, I agree, they are too high as is, perhaps even a little too wide. If you put those on stands and aim them toward the MLP you will definitely experience a better surround field. Same would count if you are able to get better placement for the Surrounds on Right and Left.

Any overhead Speaker placement is predicated on having the Bed Layer as dialed in as possible. For Speaker placement, the ideal is placing be Angle to the MLP.

7.1 Virtual Speaker Setup

Set up your home theater with 7.1 virtual speakers enabled with Dolby Atmos using our PDF and guide for optimal sound. Experience your entertainment in Dolby.

www.dolby.com

Great example of placement using angles is like this:
For your Mains, if you are 8' away, the closest the Speakers should be is ~6.5 ', measured from Center of baffle to center of baffle. That would be 22º from MLP. With the same 8' listening distanced and the 30º angle, the widest you would place the mains is about 9' apart on center.

I know and respect that we all have to make some compromises in our setup. At the same time, the closer you can get to these placement parameters, the better an effect you will experience.

Same goes double for the Height and Top placements for Atmos/Auro. IIRC, Heights are supposed to be the same placement as L/R Main, but be somewhere between 20-30º above your ears, front and back.

If you are using Atmos placements for those Side Heights, you need to find the correct angles for proper placement.
Maybe not a deal breaker, but I can say with absolute assuredness that the placement angles do make a difference! I used to have my Rears mounted high on the back wall over a closet door. Since pulling them down to proper placement, I am reminded about why Dolby give such specifics.

If you haven't seen the Dolby PDF, it's a bit dry reading, but the info is worthwhile.

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

Cheers!

 

[Eppie]

The problem I see is that this is neither an Auro3D or ATMOS setup in the strict sense. Ryan provided the Dolby spec. Here is Auro3D:
https://www.stormaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/whitepaper_auro3d_home_theater_setup_guidelines_v8_13062017.pdf

Auro3D typically has the height speakers above the bed layer speakers and makes use of a single top speaker. The side surrounds are currently a little far forward, but with the couch moving forward that should place the side surrounds in a relatively better position, so they can stay where they are. As mentioned, the rear speakers should be lowered to be part of the bed layer. For Auro3D the side height speaker should be above the side surrounds, so they should move forward. If this is both ATMOS and Auro3D, I prefer the side height speakers to be a little in front of the seating position, so again, above where the side surrounds are. If you had 4 heights in the back, you could have one behind and one in front, but I believe that with a single pair they are better placed right above or slightly in front of the main seating area. Auro would normally have the front height speakers on the sides above a pair of front wide speakers, but for this room I would leave the front height where they are. The position above the front L+R is correct.

That's my basic understanding of the two systems. ATMOS is more common so I would focus more on proper ATMOS placement. Refer to the ATMOS spec for proper angles and consult the owners manual for your receiver to see what modes are supported.

 

[Project SOG]

Thank you so much everyone. I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me.

@William Lemmerhirt @ryanosaur @Eppie it sounds like you're all saying the same when it comes to the rear surrounds which is to lower them. But when it comes to the side heights you differ.

@William Lemmerhirt says to leave them as is.
@ryanosaur says to place them as rear heights.
@Eppie says to place them slightly in front of MLP.

Given that you have a different take, can you help me understand what would be the most optimal placement for those side heights?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

So this is tough. I’m trying to be useful here, but also work which involves running equipment and driving a truck lol.

So. Yes, I think due to the duality here, the “side heights”(which are really rear hights) should stay. Mainly because I think the angle between the front and rear heights is too great, but they’re also close to the rear surrounds which is what Auro wants. The problem is trying to get a good layout for two different formats that prioritize different placement angles.
I’m not a fan of auro, but I know why some like it, so I’d like to help. Hopefully I’ll get time shortly to do that.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thank you so much everyone. I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me.

@William Lemmerhirt @ryanosaur @Eppie it sounds like you're all saying the same when it comes to the rear surrounds which is to lower them. But when it comes to the side heights you differ.

@William Lemmerhirt says to leave them as is.
@ryanosaur says to place them as rear heights.
@Eppie says to place them slightly in front of MLP.

Given that you have a different take, can you help me understand what would be the most optimal placement for those side heights?

No, I asked first and foremost:

How do you have them set up?

This is key.

Those side Height channels are set up in your AVR to receive a discrete signal which is coded to deliver an “object placement” at a time specific to its placement in the “surround bubble.”

I gave an example mentioning my Rear Surrounds being out of place according to spec. Even though I still got the “code,” it wasn’t as effective til I put them where the belong. Perhaps my brain knew the signal wasn’t in the proper place?
But know I’m hearing sounds where they are mixed to be, and I’m starting to look over my shoulder because I swear to all that’s holy there’s a bat flapping behind or some such.

How do you have those Side Heights set up?

I know my AVR does not allow for true Auro placements.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

No, I asked first and foremost:

How do you have them set up?

This is key.

Those side Height channels are set up in your AVR to receive a discrete signal which is coded to deliver an “object placement” at a time specific to its placement in the “surround bubble.”

I gave an example mentioning my Rear Surrounds being out of place according to spec. Even though I still got the “code,” it wasn’t as effective til I put them where the belong. Perhaps my brain knew the signal wasn’t in the proper place?
But know I’m hearing sounds where they are mixed to be, and I’m starting to look over my shoulder because I swear to all that’s holy there’s a bat flapping behind or some such.

How do you have those Side Heights set up?

I know my AVR does not allow for true Auro placements.

Yes. I meant to ask that too. How are the
“rear/side heights” configured? My problem is which setup to favor. My preference is Atmos, so my mind wants 45° fore and aft the LP. Auro wants 30°, and above all ear level speakers. So…..
My bias may be at play, but the logic is this. For Atmos, the overhead layer should be tighter, say 45° like most of the literature says. That should give good object placement and also allow auromatic to be effective without an actual VOG speaker. However, if most listening is auromatic, then the heights should be at 30° and above ear level speakers, give or take a bit.
Hopefully I’ll get a chance to sit down for a bit here and type something useful. You guys may get it sorted by then though! lol
How about I just say “cable”!!! Now drink…..

 

[Project SOG]

Thank you thank you so much guys. I really appreciate all your help.

My apologies @ryanosaur . I mistakenly overlooked your question. I have it set as front and rear heights. I also have an external amp, (VTV NC502MP+NC500MP Three Channel Amplifier 3X500 W) and the AVR is a Denon 4700. Not sure if that helps or not.

 

[Project SOG]

Also, here's a video to help you all with a visual of the side heights in relation to the couch and rear surrounds.

New video by Dell Polanco

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[Wardog555]

This is nowhere near to Dolby specifications and it look as though you've randomly placed the speakers.

Follow these images and you'll have a far better experience.

Please note. I'm not discussing auro 3d as I'm unable to utilize it and Dolby atmos is the most widely used format.

These images are for the atmos overhead speakers.

Ill share my thought for 7.1 base layer locations. Side surrounds at 95-100 degrees from center. Not too high above ear level. Rear surrounds at 150 degrees not too high above ear level.

 

[Project SOG]

View attachment 64700

This is nowhere near to Dolby specifications and it look as though you've randomly placed the speakers.

Follow these images and you'll have a far better experience.

Please note. I'm not discussing auro 3d as I'm unable to utilize it and Dolby atmos is the most widely used format.

These images are for the atmos overhead speakers.

Ill share my thought for 7.1 base layer locations. Side surrounds at 95-100 degrees from center. Not too high above ear level. Rear surrounds at 150 degrees not too high above ear level.
View attachment 64701

@Wardog555 I appreciate the information but I'm not trying to achieve solely atmos. Please read initial post and thread to get context.

 

[ryanosaur]

@Wardog555 I appreciate the information but I'm not trying to achieve solely atmos. Please read initial post and thread to get context.

It is your choice how you do it, however sending a signal to the sides that is meant to come from behind you will mess with the spatial queues.
This, regardless of your intention, is not a hybrid of anything.
It is your system, so please do with it as you will.
If you want to improve things, we can help you figure things out.
My advice is forget Auro, put the Rear Heights where they belong and experience a better soundfield. If the receiver will allow you to set those Side Heights as Top Front or Top Middle (whichever is closest to proper placement) that would work too.