Rear Heights Placement

[Project SOG]

It is your choice how you do it, however sending a signal to the sides that is meant to come from behind you will mess with the spatial queues.
This, regardless of your intention, is not a hybrid of anything.
It is your system, so please do with it as you will.
If you want to improve things, we can help you figure things out.
My advice is forget Auro, put the Rear Heights where they belong and experience a better soundfield. If the receiver will allow you to set those Side Heights as Top Front or Top Middle (whichever is closest to proper placement) that would work too.

Thank you @ryanosaur for giving me insight and I will take your advice in lowering the back surrounds and placing the side heights as rear heights instead so I can come closer to the given speaker configuration.

I attached the screenshot to confirm. So set the heights up like this?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

It is your choice how you do it, however sending a signal to the sides that is meant to come from behind you will mess with the spatial queues.
This, regardless of your intention, is not a hybrid of anything.
It is your system, so please do with it as you will.
If you want to improve things, we can help you figure things out.
My advice is forget Auro, put the Rear Heights where they belong and experience a better soundfield. If the receiver will allow you to set those Side Heights as Top Front or Top Middle (whichever is closest to proper placement) that would work too.

RynoDino my old buddy! Hope you’s good.
I wonder here if we’re all talking about different things. For instance, we keep calling these side heights, but he does have them labeled as rear heights. I think where it might be a problem is because the couch is right up against the wall. If it moved forward the. They’d essentially be rear heights. Similar to this:

Right or wrong, I know Ed Mullen had recommended this many times for prime elevation speakers, but that was NOT taking auto into consideration. As far as spatial cues, top and height designations carry the same info. They’re just timed differently. I agree personally to drop Auro, but that’s because I just don’t have any personal interest in it. IMO if he was to relocate the rear heights to the back wall, he would then want to use top/side middles as the gap between the front and rear heights is too far apart to image properly between them. Following your advice for the rear height and rear surrounds is solid. But the front heights are too low for Atmos. Ironically they’re pretty close for Auro so….. What’s a girl to do?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thank you @ryanosaur for giving me insight and I will take your advice in lowering the back surrounds and placing the side heights as rear heights instead so I can come closer to the given speaker configuration.

I attached the screenshot to confirm. So set the heights up like this?View attachment 64704

The main point is to set them up per recommended angles of the format. For example, for four overhead speakers Atmos wants 45° in front of the MLP and behind the MLP. The same side to side or between.5 and .7 of the width of the farthest speakers. Basically forming a square overhead.

For heights, it’s a little different.(nevermind my doodle, Ryan’s favorite lol)

Front and rear height follows Auro more closely, but depending on the length and height of the room, the gap is too long for good overhead imaging. It seems like the direction here is to go with heights in favor of an Auro centric layout. To me Atmos playback will not be as good, but will be ok.

 

[ryanosaur]

Hi Bill!

That's what I'm getting at. It's where you are putting the Speakers in relation to what Dolby is spec'ing for placement. And it is all about the angles.

I think if he left those Side Heights where they were after moving the couch, they should be called Top Back in the AVR.

This is much the way my installation will be progressing, with "Height" wall mounted Speakers being used in the most proper locations to call them Top Front and Top Back. When I was measuring everything out, I had to struggle with whether mounting them as Front/Rear Height would be smarter because I can more easily nail those angles. However, the Tops Front/Back placements are routinely suggested to give more joy.
In my situation, the Top Back is slightly off Spec, but close enough that I'm not too worried about it. I base that on my experience with the Rears having been effectively at Rear Height placement before bringing them down to floor level.

Anyway, Even trying to create a hybrid Auro effect, sending Rear placement info to the sides of the seating is ineffective. Of course, Auro in the US is mostly a dead thing except for the resurgence now of Auromatic upmixer and such... but most all programming is encoded with Dolby's spatial queues. So at best, he would be better off mimicking a hybrid placement of the Tops as Side Heights.
If the AVR is forcing him into only using Height or Top Speakers, then he should choose what he can make work best in the room, recognizing that the placements matter a lot in this type of setup.

In the end, as I said, it is his room; his system.

Advice is given. Horse is led to water.

Get the right information sent to the right place. If placements are hybrid to achieve both specifications in some way or another, cool. But it has to still be done smartly and with more intention to hope to get the effect he wants.

 

[Project SOG]

The main point is to set them up per recommended angles of the format. For example, for four overhead speakers Atmos wants 45° in front of the MLP and behind the MLP. The same side to side or between.5 and .7 of the width of the farthest speakers. Basically forming a square overhead.

For heights, it’s a little different.(nevermind my doodle, Ryan’s favorite lol)

Front and rear height follows Auro more closely, but depending on the length and height of the room, the gap is too long for good overhead imaging. It seems like the direction here is to go with heights in favor of an Auro centric layout. To me Atmos playback will not be as good, but will be ok.

So the room is a rectangle 20 ft x 13 ft. @William Lemmerhirt @ryanosaur interestingly enough, Ed has been helping me with my set up and I brought the scenario to his attention and he advised to leave all speakers as is and use the front and rear heights configuration, and when I would recalibrate that the AVR would do the rest of the work to optimize sound.

I know you're thinking that I'm being difficult or don't want to take the advice, it's just that since I'm a novice I want to make sure I do it the best way and You've also helped me in the past so I appreciate your knowledge as well.

Once I push the couch forward here are the options:
1. Leave all speakers as is
2. Lower rear surrounds and leave side surrounds where they are
3. Place side surrounds as rear heights and lower rear surrounds

What are your thoughts?

 

[Trebdp83]

Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos are not compatible in their optimal configurations and the only real configuration compromise to use both of them is the Dolby Atmos configuration using wall mounted front and rear height speakers. Just do your best with the challenges of the room to get speakers to as close to the optimal positions as it possible to do so.

 

[ryanosaur]

So the room is a rectangle 20 ft x 13 ft. @William Lemmerhirt @ryanosaur interestingly enough, Ed has been helping me with my set up and I brought the scenario to his attention and he advised to leave all speakers as is and use the front and rear heights configuration, and when I would recalibrate that the AVR would do the rest of the work to optimize sound.

I know you're thinking that I'm being difficult or don't want to take the advice, it's just that since I'm a novice I want to make sure I do it the best way and You've also helped me in the past so I appreciate your knowledge as well.

Once I push the couch forward here are the options:
1. Leave all speakers as is
2. Lower rear surrounds and leave side surrounds where they are
3. Place side surrounds as rear heights and lower rear surrounds

What are your thoughts?

I know I'm focusing more in my part of this conversation on improving the Surround Bubble... where objects in a "3D" soundfield are placed and how you can best enjoy it.

The key to this lies in understanding better for yourself what these Object Placements might mean and how they react to Speaker Placement in your room.

Whatever your value in a hybrid setup is based on, frankly, doesn't matter to me. Certainly I'm curious. Yet the simple truth underlying all of this is how well you can make it work.

The flaw with leaving the "Rear Height" channel assigned to your Left and Right and regardless of MLP location is that the Rear Information is now coming from elsewhere in the room. No AVR that is affordable to us mortals is going to allow for remapping a Speaker Placement and having it upixed properly. Like it or not, this is simple fact.

In the spirit of supporting compromise and perhaps achieving the effect you seem to want, I suggested resetting that "Height Speaker" as Top Back. This will more closely match with an Auro "Side Height" Placement than anything else. When you move your couch forward, it will be properly placed, as will hopefully your actual L/R Surrounds. You will also get much more accurate Surround Field Placement Effects.

All this takes is changing an AVR Setting and trying it out. Assuming the AVR lets you do it... which at one point I think I had to choose Heights or Tops in my 5 yr old Marantz. *shrugs
This is free, requires no actual physical labor. Just that you check your AVR Settings and make an adjustment and see if it changes anything about your experience.

Otherwise, my vote is to go for option 3.



Peace. I'm out.

 

[Trebdp83]

Auro-3D will not work with TOP Front, Middle or Rear assignments. The speaker configuration in post #21 would be the appropriate configuration for a 7.1.4 speaker setup to accommodate both Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos. The actual speakers and couch need to be positioned accordingly. No, it is not the optimal configuration for either format. But, it is the one that will work with both of them.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The flaw with leaving the "Rear Height" channel assigned to your Left and Right and regardless of MLP location is that the Rear Information is now coming from elsewhere in the room.

So I’m wondering where this is from.
Do you mean rear height speakers designated in the AVR as left and right? Or do you mean placed to the left and right?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Auro-3D will not work with TOP Front, Middle or Rear assignments. The speaker configuration in post #21 would be the appropriate configuration for a 7.1.4 speaker setup to accommodate both Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos. The actual speakers and couch need to be positioned accordingly. No, it is not the optimal configuration for either format. But, it is the one that will work with both of them.

I think I agree.

 

[ryanosaur]

So I’m wondering where this is from.
Do you mean rear height speakers designated in the AVR as left and right? Or do you mean placed to the left and right?

Unless I misread, he has those "Side Height" Speakers activated in the AVR as Rear Height.

 

[Trebdp83]

Unless I misread, he has those "Side Height" Speakers activated in the AVR as Rear Height.

@Project SOG said that they would place the side heights to the rear to match the 7.1.4 configuration featuring front and rear height speakers pictured in post #21. This would accommodate Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos. It isn't the optimal configuration for either but I doubt it will destroy the presentation of Auro-3D or Dolby Atmos tracks. It’ll be fine. Just move the couch forward so that the surround speakers are at the sides, move the surround back speakers down to ear level on the wall and move the surround height speakers from the side wall to the top of the back wall. Then, just enjoy it.

 

[Project SOG]

@Project SOG said that they would place the side heights to the rear to match the 7.1.4 configuration featuring front and rear height speakers pictured in post #21. This would accommodate Auro-3D and Dolby Atmos. It isn't the optimal configuration for either but I doubt it will destroy the presentation of Auro-3D or Dolby Atmos tracks. It’ll be fine. Just move the couch forward so that the surround speakers are at the sides, move the surround back speakers down to ear level on the wall and move the surround height speakers from the side wall to the top of the back wall. Then, just enjoy it.

This is exactly what I'm going to do. I'll follow the picture in post #21 and get the speakers as close as possible to the picture and enjoy!

 

[Wardog555]

is the op even trying to learn how to place their speakers?
when told how to do it correctly. dismisses the information and then asks what to do with their setup.
if people take this more seriously we wouldn't have to provide such feedback and information.
do a design on sketchup and use the protractor to figure out placement from there.
if you still neglect the basics. you will continue to suffer from such a bad and terrible layout.
speaker placement is that important it can make or break your setup. this as of now is a break your setup situation here. this is being honest.

people are here to actually help you out. if you don't accept information how is it possible for you to make an improvement?

 

[Project SOG]

is the op even trying to learn how to place their speakers?
when told how to do it correctly. dismisses the information and then asks what to do with their setup.
if people take this more seriously we wouldn't have to provide such feedback and information.
do a design on sketchup and use the protractor to figure out placement from there.
if you still neglect the basics. you will continue to suffer from such a bad and terrible layout.
speaker placement is that important it can make or break your setup. this as of now is a break your setup situation here. this is being honest.

people are here to actually help you out. if you don't accept information how is it possible for you to make an improvement?

I'm confused. The given advice has been taken and the discussion has ended. What am I missing?

 

[Trebdp83]

Absolutely nothing, proceed as planned.

 

[Project SOG]

Absolutely nothing, proceed as planned.

Will do, thank you for the help.