Why is a dedicated DAC needed?

[tonyE]

Everybody is into their own ways eventually. Vintage to me, is where I started personally. As much as I dig it, I'm only willing to give it one chance at a second life or a single resurrection. That means my vintage is now getting too old for me to be willing to invest much in it, never mind pay the collectors and hoarders prices for it on the used market. My vintage amps are now novelties that I don't feel easy about putting back into full time use or as a main system, unless it was all I had.

I just think tony E. has nobody to talk to about this stuff. I admit, audiophiles in my circles are rare, and of the 4.5 that remain, I 'was' the only 2-channel, music only head with vintage gear and who works on/builds his own electronics or built his own speakers. My friends kind of think I'm a little kooky with it and really don't want to know all of the details, more than once. Is also why TLS posts photos of his setup and talks about it as much as he does too. Used to be a time when this was much more social in an IRL sense.

As the internet age progresses, there is very little new news to uncover. We've used most of what once underground comparatively, up. I remember when I started here at AH. I was on a second roll and at the beginning of a new audio life. While I was building it, the goal at the end was pretty far away and that anticipation was strong. Now that it's essentially complete, it's kind of hard to come down from all that to just listening to the system, while the other alternative is just to do what everyone else is currently.

Is like when someone new to a forum tells how they got started in audio. As unique as they think their story must be, it ends up being relatively the same as everyone else's, other than perhaps brand names or economic classes.

I'm guilty of it too, noted by my participation here at times, rattling on, just like with this post.

I'm actually quite active in DIYaudio.com

Have met many audiophiles... the kind that you can discuss stuff like schematics and design concepts.. as well as listening.

Recently I went to Burning Amp '23 where I got to build myself a couple of 5W Class A amps, listen to a lot of DIY audio systems and attend quite a few discussions and presentations. Nelson Pass is very active in that group.

I dropped in here to ask one question, but I believe this site is for a different group.. mostly people who BUY their components, as opposed to people who design and build their own. Which, IMHO, is where the true State of the Art is.

So, if consumers want to dump on me... whatever. My stereos are unobtainable in the consumer market. Even if you got to put up with them going up in smoke every so often.... After all, the Legal Dept ain't gonna allow an amp going out the door running at 65C... even if it sounds better...

Vintage... it has a place in life. I've kept a few units around and I had them all rebuilt back to spec by a local guy who does that as a hobby as a side gig. He is very good, knowledgeable and fun to talk to... But they are vintage... they tend to lack a deep sound stage.. My big Marantz sounds like Led Zeppelin... my big Sansui sounds like Steely Dan... good sound but not accurate. Not by more modern standards ( although those Sony VFETs are uniquely good.... or try an STASIS amp ). But they can be fun. What has happened in the used market, by shysters, flippers and scammers is horrendous, it has put an end to a part of my hobby because there is no way I'm gonna ever pay 100 bucks for a Radio Shack 8 track. Avoid eBay...

So, yeah, I know enough audiophiles.. If you get to go to BA24, it's likely the best place to meet and talk and learn and hear audio stuff.

 

[tonyE]

Well, I don’t have much for manners, but I do know the size restrictions on pics is stoopid, and is a problem for many. I mostly use Tapatalk for iOS forum manager which allows you to easily choose file size.

Well, I don't do Apple.

Curently I do Windoze, Raspbian and Ubuntu.

I use Android... although I used to program it, the kernel, a few jobs ago.

 

[MrBoat]

I'm actually quite active in DIYaudio.com

Have met many audiophiles... the kind that you can discuss stuff like schematics and design concepts.. as well as listening.

Recently I went to Burning Amp '23 where I got to build myself a couple of 5W Class A amps, listen to a lot of DIY audio systems and attend quite a few discussions and presentations. Nelson Pass is very active in that group.

I dropped in here to ask one question, but I believe this site is for a different group.. mostly people who BUY their components, as opposed to people who design and build their own. Which, IMHO, is where the true State of the Art is.

So, if consumers want to dump on me... whatever. My stereos are unobtainable in the consumer market. Even if you got to put up with them going up in smoke every so often.... After all, the Legal Dept ain't gonna allow an amp going out the door running at 65C... even if it sounds better...

Vintage... it has a place in life. I've kept a few units around and I had them all rebuilt back to spec by a local guy who does that as a hobby as a side gig. He is very good, knowledgeable and fun to talk to... But they are vintage... they tend to lack a deep sound stage.. My big Marantz sounds like Led Zeppelin... my big Sansui sounds like Steely Dan... good sound but not accurate. Not by more modern standards ( although those Sony VFETs are uniquely good.... or try an STASIS amp ). But they can be fun. What has happened in the used market, by shysters, flippers and scammers is horrendous, it has put an end to a part of my hobby because there is no way I'm gonna ever pay 100 bucks for a Radio Shack 8 track. Avoid eBay...

So, yeah, I know enough audiophiles.. If you get to go to BA24, it's likely the best place to meet and talk and learn and hear audio stuff.

I spent quite a bit of time at diyaudio.com. Is where I got the F5, Starving Student HPA, Nutube, Honey Badger, ACA(twice) and the universal power supply boards. Most of the time they were out of the components that would make these items an actual kit. I ended up having to shop all the components individually. I'm a fan of Nelson Pass. He actually went out of his way to give my ACA mono blocks a thumbs up and I appreciate the time he spends rubbing elbows with us peons. I also built the NOLA Brio Trio clones while following that thread as it evolved. Built the P2P Gain clone, and other little audio novelties from there.

I stay here at AH because the group is more versed in many different interests than the site lets on, and they put up with my non-video, non-surround existence. I don't even watch TV. Another member here referred me to the F-12 Tempests, and other members were supportive/engaging with the DIY projects. We have to realize that most people that have been following this hobby, have pretty much seen everything, and will continue to as it unfolds pretty much bit-by-bit. It amazes me how current and informed some of the more regular members are, when someone comes thru here asking questions.

DACs, I'm just not going to obsess over or hold out for them to be the magic bullet to color my system any certain way. The only real use to me so far with external DACs is to use the USB of my PC instead of the headphone jack. To be honest, I'd rather just have a more comprehensive set of tone controls, the idea of which, will make most audiophiles-phools/engineers cringe.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much over the obsession/consumerism and perpetual hype aspect with regard to the starving beast that consumer audio industry is. Expensive DACs costing thousands, is just one indication of how far-fetched this hobby can be, not to mention the cable foolery and other snake oils.

 

[eljr]

There are NO "High End" receivers, period, none.

Bingo!

 

[tonyE]

I spent quite a bit of time at diyaudio.com. Is where I got the F5, Starving Student HPA, Nutube, Honey Badger, ACA(twice) and the universal power supply boards. Most of the time they were out of the components that would make these items an actual kit. I ended up having to shop all the components individually. I'm a fan of Nelson Pass. He actually went out of his way to give my ACA mono blocks a thumbs up and I appreciate the time he spends rubbing elbows with us peons. I also built the NOLA Brio Trio clones while following that thread as it evolved. Built the P2P Gain clone, and other little audio novelties from there.

I stay here at AH because the group is more versed in many different interests than the site lets on, and they put up with my non-video, non-surround existence. I don't even watch TV. Another member here referred me to the F-12 Tempests, and other members were supportive/engaging with the DIY projects. We have to realize that most people that have been following this hobby, have pretty much seen everything, and will continue to as it unfolds pretty much bit-by-bit. It amazes me how current and informed some of the more regular members are, when someone comes thru here asking questions.

DACs, I'm just not going to obsess over or hold out for them to be the magic bullet to color my system any certain way. The only real use to me so far with external DACs is to use the USB of my PC instead of the headphone jack. To be honest, I'd rather just have a more comprehensive set of tone controls, the idea of which, will make most audiophiles-phools/engineers cringe.

Otherwise, I'm pretty much over the obsession/consumerism and perpetual hype aspect with regard to the starving beast that consumer audio industry is. Expensive DACs costing thousands, is just one indication of how far-fetched this hobby can be, not to mention the cable foolery and other snake oils.

Someday I'll get the F5T v3.... I know where there's one that was built by a very good builder... the owner might sell it.

My clone F5 sounds very good but it just lacks the power.

Yeah, the B1K sounds awesome, huh?

Sometimes, for kicks, I'll put together a 10 watt system, listen, look around and wonder why..... Remember Theodoric Of York The Barber?

Wait a minute. Perhaps she's right. Perhaps I've been wrong to blindly follow the medical traditions and superstitions of past centuries. Maybe we barbers should test these assumptions analytically, through experimentation and a "scientific method". Maybe this scientific method could be extended to other fields of learning: the natural sciences, art, architecture, navigation. Perhaps I could lead the way to a new age, an age of rebirth, a Renaissance!...

But then, like Theodoric.... I say...

Naaaaaahhh!

And then I'll go into hifishark and look for stuff.... I think I need another pair of speakers.... but first I better finish the Madisound boxes sitting right to my left...

 

[Meticulous G]

One of my DACs is an RME ADI-2 FS DAC. I use it to record records from my main set up -which is currently set up as LP12/Karousel/Trampolin/Lingo/Ittok/Grado Master 2, Clone First Watt Pearl 2 and Pearl 3 phono stages, over a CJ ET3SE preamp.... then it all goes out via Class A amps ( Aleph 2, Aleph 5, FW F4, FW SIT-3, ARC D70-II ) and Audio Note AN-K/LX or Magnepan 1.7s. I also have a pair of Entec MX5 woofers if I need more bass.

I also run a Burson Play with a variety of Burson OPAMPS... the stream is an Android tablet over USB-OTG.

The sound of that chain is quite close to what we get from our seats in a live performance at seats M21/22 orchestra.

Mind you, no audio recording will ever sound like the real thing... "measurements" are somewhat incomplete as we really don't quite yet know how to measure psychoacoustics. When my son had his band in the our garage, the power of the drum and the guitar amps was incredible. In the concert hall, the power of a symphony orchestra is incredible, the soundstage and depth are amazing, you don't hear the instruments, you hear the entire room acting up.

When I used to record bluegrass and chamber orchestra, back in the day, on location, we'd take the tapes back to the studio and we'd try to recreate the sound. We'd experiment with Teac/Tascam multichannel R2Rs and an 8 channel mixing board... at the studio we'd try to recreate the performance... it just wasn't the same we heard on location.

So, you see, I do know a bit about such things. I find that 2 channel can create an extremely good soundstage... and what drives me the most is how a system does the bass ( fast, tight ) and how shimmering the treble reproduction (like the drum kit and cymbals). I recently got a Schitt Syn and I'm setting it up in my office system with Acoustic Energy AE1s and Burning Amp ACA class A FET amps ( 8 wpc )... It reminds me of the old Fosgate system.

BTW: your argument would carry better if you would not use ad hominems... just stick to the argument, don't call me names "fossilized planet", "bilge"... please stick to the facts.

So, I find that most of the surround tracks nowadays are not made for audio realism, but for some kind of creative surround field. Which is fine for movies, but not for recreating the experience of a live performance.

As it turns out, the old Fosgate surround decoder, applied when the engineer was made with some ambience built it, as in using a Blumlein pair up front, maybe some spot mikes carefully panned and perhaps a mono rear ambience track, comes quite close. It is sad, as the experiments we did back in the day ( we were just coming out of the Quad fiasco ) showed us that a four channel recording could really present a very convincing soundstage facsimile of the real musical event... but reality didn't sell, only gimmicks.

Without making it the rest of the way through the thread before responding, it seems to me the part yer not familiar enough with is the HT side of things

I'm not a full blown expert myself, but if the reading I've done & my comprehension & retention serve

...4K UHD Blu-ray and it's sound formats, Dolby Atmos & DTS X, are the 1st and still only true lossless (which I'm assuming you'd consider "high end") signals for HT, aand they do really exist

...the higher end streaming services are fantastic with their 4K UHD, HDRs & Dolby Vision, but their version of Atmos (and possibly DTS X, which I don't think I've seen on any of them yet) are still lossy...which it seems they were hoping we wouldn't notice, and tbh, I'm unsure if there's even an audible difference, or if it's just a "bench complaint"

 

[tonyE]

My advice to you is simple. READ THROUGH THE THREAD before posting.

 

[Danzilla31]

JBL horns?

I'm an audiophile, it's my hobby... there is never ENOUGH. (*) Well, there is... sorta... I backed off from driving a pair of stereo tube amps into two pair of english mini monitors. I figured it was a little too much...

But honestly, I don't show off my system to many people... maybe some nephews and nieces that are learning and setting up their stuff... the Raspberries seem to be making an impact! ;-) The might have been the great unwashed once, but not any more. They always knew about "good sound", they just hadn't been exposed to good "reproduced sound".

Now then, I don't think you understand where I'm coming from... I'm not one of them High Falutin' audiophiles with a six figure system... you know the type... Audio Jewelry... D'Agostinos, Wilson, Triple Signature Mk V cables... I think you and me are much alike... by your list of amps... btw, I built the Zenductors at BA23..

Dig it now? I too have a bench, read schematics, I can solder simple enough stuff... I admit that when it comes to the big amps I'll ask someone to help out.

As my wife said... " it sound like music, not a stereo system"...

My office... I sit within 3 feet of a pair of Acoustic Energy AE1s, currenty driven by a Nuforce DDA100. That's presents a near field experience where the back wall doesn't exist. These speakers sound really good too with the ACA 1.8 amps, the Mini, DIY F5 (**) even the new Zenductors I built at BA23... They are designed for near field.

My main system... well, it is complicated... lot of stuff... but it's my toy.

My nearest comparison to your home office, is my bedroom system which is currently set up with a fully restored Marantz 2235 and ADS L810s. Sometimes I'll set it up with a Sansui G7500... also fully restored.

EDIT:

But it is vintage... very good vintage, but it still lacks. It has a poor soundstage. Getting new audiophiles into the hobby with wildly overpriced vintage that will require extensive restoration is not right.

Instead, for a new audiophile, a simple system with a pair of something like active speakers and a nice DAC/preamp front end is likely the entry point. Use the smart phone ( Android I hope ) as the source/streamer... companies like Schitt and Audioengine come to mind. At some point, a dedicated android tablet ( on sale now at Costco for 200 bucks ) can be added with a USB-OTG cable so the phone is no longer involved. And a subwoofer

For about 1000 bucks, a new comer into audio can put together a very good sounding system.

(*) Did you know there is a hidden protection circuit in the Babelfish SIT amp? Mine has smoked... twice.

(**) If your preamp swings 20V, try the F4. Mine is also DIY. The DIY F5 is a little too big to sit on the desk...

Oh, I tried to post a picture... file is too large...

I had the same problem with downsizing pictures

I think it was @Eppie who recommended a fantastic resizer app to resize my pictures for this forum. I'll try to link it to you for what's it worth

FWIW while I may not agree with all of your beliefs as I'm sure you may not agree with mine I do respect the passion and investment you have put into this hobby. Nice setups you have their.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the fact that modern avrs or processors cannot reproduce high fidelity sound

My Monolith HTP-1 has produced breathtaking results with both 2 channel and multi channel surround formats for both music and movies.

Regardless nice to have you on the forums look forward to interesting conversations about audio with you in the future as well

 

[Danzilla31]

My advice to you is simple. READ THROUGH THE THREAD before posting.

Why should he have to do that? The threads can get quiet long and tedious especially when members post very long about subjects which we can all be guilty of myself included

His post was relevant to the discussion at hand

C'mon now don't ask other members to not be condescending or abrupt in their mannerisms towards you and then not treat those members willing to talk with you with that same level of respect that you are asking for

 

[tonyE]

Why should he have to do that? The threads can get quiet long and tedious especially when members post very long about subjects which we can all be guilty of myself included

His post was relevant to the discussion at hand

C'mon now don't ask other members to not be condescending or abrupt in their mannerisms towards you and then not treat those members willing to talk with you with that same level of respect that you are asking for

This is NOTHING about respect... nothing about being condescending... Did you read his comment?

" Without making it the rest of the way through the thread before responding, it seems to me the part yer not familiar enough with is the HT side of things "

So, he hasn't read the thread
And then he accuses me of not being familiar with the HT side of things.

Do you understand now why I told him to read the thread before passing judgement?

It's one thing to read the thread and post on something... another to read part of the thread and pass judgement on someone.

Example:

Let's say the OP starts:

(1) I want a red carpet for my living room.

and later he posts

(35) I work in a rug factory making tints

And someone after reading post (1)

(100) Well, I only read the first ten posts, but it seems to me like you don't understand what red is all about, if you did, you'd go for purple...

See? Does post (100) add anything to the thread? No, it does not, because it's missing a very important part of the discussion and to boot, it add an ad homimem attack... If he had read post 35 he would not be making such an comment...

 

[tonyE]

I had the same problem with downsizing pictures

I think it was @Eppie who recommended a fantastic resizer app to resize my pictures for this forum. I'll try to link it to you for what's it worth

FWIW while I may not agree with all of your beliefs as I'm sure you may not agree with mine I do respect the passion and investment you have put into this hobby. Nice setups you have their.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the fact that modern avrs or processors cannot reproduce high fidelity sound

My Monolith HTP-1 has produced breathtaking results with both 2 channel and multi channel surround formats for both music and movies.

Regardless nice to have you on the forums look forward to interesting conversations about audio with you in the future as well

I know how to downsize pictures, it's not hard. I was just surprised that this site doesn't do it automatically as everybody else is doing it nowadays.

My main issue with "receivers" in general is the compromises made to fit everything into one box.... it also removes the options that I want... change this, change that...

An AVR is an audio DAC processor, a video processor, a preamplifier, sometimes an FM tuner, an amplifer, and God Knows what else. The manufacturer tends to shoot for a balance, so an upgrade on the amplifier section usually portends upgrades everywhere... hence the cost goes up.... I think the AVPs are a reasonable compromise, but still a compromise for me...

And with HDMI changing so fast, almost on a yearly basis, and all kinds of required formats... all of those logos on the front panel become expensive licenses... just like getting cable or satellite TV where they bundle all of those channels whether you want them or not...

So those AVR become obsolete fast and then you got to replace the whole enchilada... what if I'm happy with the sound of the audio section as it is and don't need a 13.4 surround system? But I need the new HDMI interface standard for my new TV....

In my World, that would be happily done with 6 or more boxes... and cables, and lights, and switches.. and I can change the amp or processors or PC as I feel like it.

Just my own preferences. So, like for TV, I got two Tablos for OTA, Rokus, and a bunch of other stuff... And I don't have to pay for FNC, CNN, MSBC, ESPN, Weather Channel, etc....

 

[Danzilla31]

This is NOTHING about respect... nothing about being condescending... Did you read his comment?

" Without making it the rest of the way through the thread before responding, it seems to me the part yer not familiar enough with is the HT side of things "

So, he hasn't read the thread
And then he accuses me of not being familiar with the HT side of things.

Do you understand now why I told him to read the thread before passing judgement?

It's one thing to read the thread and post on something... another to read part of the thread and pass judgement on someone.

Example:

Let's say the OP starts:

(1) I want a red carpet for my living room.

and later he posts

(35) I work in a rug factory making tints

And someone after reading post (1)

(100) Well, I only read the first ten posts, but it seems to me like you don't understand what red is all about, if you did, you'd go for purple...

See? Does post (100) add anything to the thread? No, it does not, because it's missing a very important part of the discussion and to boot, it add an ad homimem attack... If he had read post 35 he would not be making such an comment...

I actually agree with him. I've read the entire thread and it does appear that you are more invested towards DIY and more 2 channel rigs or rigs that utilize less on the surround sound formats. His point about their value is a good one. One of the strengths of my HTP-1 is the upmixer and the surround formats. What it can do with 2 channel formars when I'm not in the mood for 2 channel listening is incredible.

I also feel your more emphasized towards DIY which of course with the right knowledge and elbow grease can give you excellent results because you can build them exactly to your needs.

But I also think your underestimating what commercial can do for those of us that just don't have the time or energy for various life reasons to keep investing that much into the hobby. Working in psychiatric care I definitely fall into that group. I'd love to get more into DIY I just don't have the energy right now after work and my days off I just want to relax and enjoy not tinker don't get me wrong it would be fun I'm just too tired

Commercial has come a long way and @TLS Guy is right with the right knowledge by the end user commercial can achieve fantastic results and so can multi channel surround formats.

 

[MrBoat]

FWIW, I use an image hosting site such as Imgur, and I choose the resize option (800 x 600) to save my images to. I use that site primarily for forum pictures.

 

[Danzilla31]

I know how to downsize pictures, it's not hard. I was just surprised that this site doesn't do it automatically as everybody else is doing it nowadays.

My main issue with "receivers" in general is the compromises made to fit everything into one box.... it also removes the options that I want... change this, change that...

An AVR is an audio DAC processor, a video processor, a preamplifier, sometimes an FM tuner, an amplifer, and God Knows what else. The manufacturer tends to shoot for a balance, so an upgrade on the amplifier section usually portends upgrades everywhere... hence the cost goes up.... I think the AVPs are a reasonable compromise, but still a compromise for me...

And with HDMI changing so fast, almost on a yearly basis, and all kinds of required formats... all of those logos on the front panel become expensive licenses... just like getting cable or satellite TV where they bundle all of those channels whether you want them or not...

So those AVR become obsolete fast and then you got to replace the whole enchilada... what if I'm happy with the sound of the audio section as it is and don't need a 13.4 surround system? But I need the new HDMI interface standard for my new TV....

In my World, that would be happily done with 6 or more boxes... and cables, and lights, and switches.. and I can change the amp or processors or PC as I feel like it.

Just my own preferences. So, like for TV, I got two Tablos for OTA, Rokus, and a bunch of other stuff... And I don't have to pay for FNC, CNN, MSBC, ESPN, Weather Channel, etc....

Just my own preferences

Bingo that line says it all.

I don't think either way is superior to the other. It's just what each person prefers and they both offer their own unique strengths and weaknesses.

you are spot on with HDMI tho. HDMI and the damn licensing idiots have made our lives really hard at times with building our systems

Also I don't belive that AVRs or pre pros get as obsolete as people think. Since a lottof content being produced can't even keep up with the new developments anyway. Unless your a gamer who needs some of the 4k and 8k specs they are pushing right now?

alsi just because a processor offers 13.4.4 and you don't need it their is nothing wrong with using it with less. It will still sound great and your system then has room to grow

 

[Danzilla31]

Hi All,

There are so many high end and good quality receivers which are available which have high end DAC in them. But if we want to directly connect our Phone's USB out or USB out from a laptop/desktop to these receivers it does not work. I have checked manuals of couple of high end receivers and all they allow is a memory stick with stored audio files only.
The issue is that for listening lossless music from say Apple Music, we need to use a computer or phone. But if we do say AirPlay it still does not play the actual Hi-res. The only way to really play Hi-Res is to connect the computer or phone to an external DAC and then connect the DAC to receiver. This adds an unnecessary equipment and cost.
Is there any reason for this limitation? Is there any workaround? Please advise

Thank you,
Pushkar

Hey! Sorry this thread went off your original question a bit.

I feel the reason companies don't offer this is due to the fact that most users won't be using these AVR's or processors in this manner anymore. So they probably put their resources into the areas they think people are most invested in.

As far as work arounds since I don't use my gear in the way your mentioning I'm not able to give you the best solutions I'm afraid but hopefully the other members can give you some good alternatives to pull off what your wanting to try

 

[tonyE]

Hi All,

There are so many high end and good quality receivers which are available which have high end DAC in them. But if we want to directly connect our Phone's USB out or USB out from a laptop/desktop to these receivers it does not work. I have checked manuals of couple of high end receivers and all they allow is a memory stick with stored audio files only.
The issue is that for listening lossless music from say Apple Music, we need to use a computer or phone. But if we do say AirPlay it still does not play the actual Hi-res. The only way to really play Hi-Res is to connect the computer or phone to an external DAC and then connect the DAC to receiver. This adds an unnecessary equipment and cost.
Is there any reason for this limitation? Is there any workaround? Please advise

Thank you,
Pushkar

The only work around that I know is to use a stand alone DAC that supports USB2 with a USB-OTG cable. Or get a Raspberry and do it with a DAC hat.

Most modern DACs do this already, you don't have to spend a lot of money, indeed, many of them also serve as very good preamplifiers and headphone amps.

In your case, you'd be running the DAC into one of the two channel auxiliary inputs of your AVR.

The fix, is to do what I do... do NOT use an all in one AVR o AVP. Just assemble a lot of boxes... it works for me and it offers far less compromises and limitations.

 

[tonyE]

I actually agree with him. I've read the entire thread and it does appear that you are more invested towards DIY and more 2 channel rigs or rigs that utilize less on the surround sound formats. His point about their value is a good one. One of the strengths of my HTP-1 is the upmixer and the surround formats. What it can do with 2 channel formars when I'm not in the mood for 2 channel listening is incredible.

I also feel your more emphasized towards DIY which of course with the right knowledge and elbow grease can give you excellent results because you can build them exactly to your needs.

But I also think your underestimating what commercial can do for those of us that just don't have the time or energy for various life reasons to keep investing that much into the hobby. Working in psychiatric care I definitely fall into that group. I'd love to get more into DIY I just don't have the energy right now after work and my days off I just want to relax and enjoy not tinker don't get me wrong it would be fun I'm just too tired

Commercial has come a long way and @TLS Guy is right with the right knowledge by the end user commercial can achieve fantastic results and so can multi channel surround formats.

I don't emphasize DIY... to me, it's just one of the options at hand to assemble the systems I want. For most people, it is not.

(1) I had my first surround HT in '89, using a Fosgate with 5 channels.
(2) I was working on developing standards for Internetworking audio in the 90s.
(3) I was working on developing firmware for Internetworking video in the 90s.
(4) The companies I was working with, all had HT labs with some incredible screens and surround systems.
(5) I've had an HT since... '89. Went to 7 channels around '00.
(6) I had an Infiniti Video Reference, line doubled to 480p, since the early 90s.
(7) My other monitors were either Sony XBR or Protons... all set up by an ISR technician.
(8) I've had a PC hooked up to my HT since '90. Which means I was doing a lot of digital video since then... before DVDs. I was encoding Laserdiscs and storing them into a PC. Then playing them back. With full surround... and no... you couldn't buy that stuff, it was NOT available commercially.
(9) Oh, back in '98 or so we had a 42 inch flat plasma display, 480p, shipped to our lab.

Now... DIY

A commercial product usually has 10% of cost in the nonrecurring costs (R&D) and recurring costs (BoM, manufacturing, licensing). The other 90% is stuck in sales and distribution.

So, if I build an amp for 2500 bucks, that is usually equivalent to a commercial product selling for almost $25K. Likely better as the amps will be biased to 55C or more, something the lawyers will NOT allow out the door, but it just sounds much, much better.

Only when it gets to specially digital stuff, where you need the licensing and processing for video and surround, do I break and buy something strictly commercial. Then the breakdown is:

(1) Line level and Amps, Analog audio... DIY or used.
(2) Turntable and cartridge.. Used and new. Hopefully work a deal.
(2) Digital audio... Used or Internet.
(3) Digital video... Buy it on sale.

So, I can put together an HT, that maximizes quality and minimizes obsolescence due to HDMI/Surround standards, for a fraction of the cost of buying it new.

Sure, it does require some knowledge of electronics.... which makes it funny when some of the posters here accuse me of not knowing about digital audio and video standards. When I was likely working on them before some of them were even born.

When I say I'm only interested in DD and DTS for 7.0 reproduction, it doesn't mean that I don't know about the other standards, I just won't use them and don't plan on having to pay for the licensing.

Nor does it mean I don't want the latest HDMI interconnection... eARC is useful for my needs because it allows me to match the audio surround processor with the TV. But, that's all. For movies and videos, I already have them on Plex servers and file systems and use a PC with a 7.1 channel outboard decoder that supports DD and DTS... driven through a Parasound P7 to a Nuforce MCA-20 the quality of the audio is really good.

So, I'm still looking for an Emo MC1... if I can get it for under 600 bucks all inclusive. All it will do is pull the surround tracks from OTA, Netflix and whatever video source my wife has tuned with the TV.