How to make a 7.1.4 set up work in a small room?

[Goldhasmter916]

Hello!

Disclaimer: this is a long text, feel free to focus only on one or two of the questions.



I am currently building my first ever home theater (7.1.4) with some rather unconventional needs in a small room. I have some ideas but could need some advice from experienced people if they would work out:



My room is 4x3 meters, I care only about one listening spot, with 2m to sides, 2m to front and 1m to back.

I will use a competent ported subwoofer.

I will mainly aim at rather moderate db levels (maybe 70db with effects topping out at 90db)

I will mainly use it for gaming but also some movies.

I will try to build a Auro 3D set up with upmixing from a denon x3800h. (I understand that many aren’t a fan of auro 3D but I Think it might fit my needs and will give it a try).

I only really care about ,,immersion“. So soundstaging, imaging/good panning of effects and detail retrieval matter to me most.



The Problem: the front wall:

I have a thin 77inch A95L Sony oled flat mounted against the fall and sit fairly close to it (2m). I dont want big bulky boxes sticking out from the wall into the room next to the tv. Further more I don’t want to look at a big bulky center speaker directly under the tv (it would somewhat destroy the immersion for me). Because of the close listening distance the center speaker would be way under ear and other speaker level, which would cause many problems for soundstaging. So no dedicated center speaker for me.





Idea 1: using the Sony A95L as a center (in case of understandable objections come in your mind please read on: it has a acoustic surface technology, which means the screen is used as a speaker Membran and emits the sound. I know it sounds gimmicky but it works. all Reviewers and owners agree that this tvs sounds way better than any other high end tv on the market and the sound is actually coming right from the screen. Also keep in mind that I sit close to the 77inch sound producing screen and listen at moderate levels. It has a center in jack and can be used as a center channel with an avr.

That being said I am not sure if I wouldn’t be better of using higher quality FR and FL to create a phantom center:

Since I don’t want regular bulky bookshelf speakers next to the tv I could use center speaker bars like the Polk Es35C, which are much less deep, vertically as FR and FL, which according to audio science review works really well with good dispersion charakteristisch. Picture below. It’s also at 40 percent discount right now on Amazon…

Do you see any problems arising from using such a lengthy speaker bar with six woofers vertically as FL FR in a small room from a close listening distance? Too many reflections maybe? Would they be good for creating a phantom center channel?


Choice of surround speakers:

For surround and height speakers I am less concerned about size:
Right now I am considering either the Polk ES series which come in white, have different size options and got a good review on audio science review Polk Signature Elite ES20 Review (Bookshelf Speaker). They cost only 200 dollar a pair for the ES15 and ES10. Since i sit close and want the 30 degree angle for auro 3d the front height would need to be placed almost directly above the outer tv corners. The ES10 would have the same slim profile of the ES35 FR and FL bar. For all the other channels I am less concerned about size. I could maybe use the es15 for side surround and ES10 for rear and height back.

The other option would be the KEF Q150 which are much bigger and cost almost twice as much as the ES 15/10 speakers. They have a coaxial driver and narrower dispersion then the es line.

I would have most surrounds at ~1.5m listening distance, do you think I should rather go for wider or narrower dispersion for good soundstage and imaging/panning? Would a coaxial driver be beneficial?



I know this is a lot to take in! I really appreciate if you read and think through to all of this!

Thanks for your time and any feedback/thoughts.

 

[DigitalDawn]

Budget for the speakers?

 

[Goldhasmter916]

Around 1.5k I would say. Would like to stay lower though if possible.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well this is a pretty tall order. How about some pics? Usually very beneficial. I’m gonna rattle this around over a cup of coffee.

 

[ryanosaur]

I thought I was silly doing it in a 11x15’ room. My metric conversion may be off, yours is definitely going to be tight!

Yes, the TV is definitely too large, but you may be able to work around it.

The most important aspect people miss in these setups is proper speaker placement. The overhead charts that Dolby publish are handy, but the true devil is in the details: it’s about the angles from a single Main Listening Position.
We all have rooms that force compromises. For a while, I had my rears mounted high to clear a closet door (for example). Deciding to bring the down to proper floor level was a significant “upgrade.”

I know Auro in its purest form has slightly different placement requirements than Atmos. You need to still focus on the proper placement of your speakers. With your room size and an oversized screen, this will be challenging. The only way to do it successfully is to focus on proper speaker placement and everything else becomes secondary.
You may well need to accept that you cannot fit everything you want.
I recommend drawing out your room, with speaker placements and your seat in mind. Really look at how everything might fit.
Sometimes, less is more! If it doesn’t fit properly, you need to be willing to change your plan.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

As usual, agree with Ryan’s points, especially regarding speaker placement. This a very small budget, in funds AND space.
Will the MLP be up against the back wall? I assume it will considering the room dims. If that’s the case, IMO it’s almost always better to do 5.x.2. There’s just not enough room for six speakers at the back of the room to image properly. Especially with gaming, that can tend to have a much more active rear sound field than movies. In this case less is more, and properly placing less speakers in correct locations will absolutely lend to a better experience, than more speakers crammed in a space that’s wrong.
For the front wall, you may just have to accept some boxes on the wall, and imo it wouldn’t be center channel speakers rotated 90°. The triads mentioned above would be a great IW option, but would eat a considerable portion of the budget. There are also other IW speakers that would be very good, and less expensive. I would recommend looking at RSL’s new ones based on the c34e but in a square form, with the same 15° baffle. The TV may work as a CC, but I’m reticent to recommend that since I haven’t seen too many reports. It may be fine, but in my old school mind, I’m not so sure it would do the job.
Also. Is this system intended to be an Atmos speaker layout, with occasional Auro upmixing? Or vice versa? I’ve seen some installations that tried to address Auro and Atmos together, but the room and budget were much bigger. I personally have zero interest in Auro 3d save for possibility listening to music. It basically mirrors the ear level speakers to the overhead speakers, and IMO serves to “dumb down” an actual immersive track made with objects. The overhead speakers are usually “busier” and some people find that more immersive. But IME, having sounds placed accurately in space, is far more immersive than an ambient sound field. Oops, I’m rambling! Time to reset.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Well this is a pretty tall order. How about some pics? Usually very beneficial. I’m gonna rattle this around over a cup of coffee.

And please share some pics if you’re willing.

 

[Goldhasmter916]

The room is only for this purpose and if it would be really much better to have a proper bookshelf speaker like the Kef as FR and FL I would go for it.

I will upload some pics as soon as I figured out how to compress them to upload here.

I appreciate the responses so far.


The main listening position would be 2m away form front wall and 1 meter away from back wall with 2 meter to each side.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The room is only for this purpose and if it would be really much better to have a proper bookshelf speaker like the Kef as FR and FL I would go for it.

I will upload some pics as soon as I figured out how to compress them to upload here.

I appreciate the responses so far.


The main listening position would be 2m away form front wall and 1 meter away from back wall with 2 meter to each side.

Ok two things quickly.
3’(1m) imo is too close for rear surrounds, as you’ll have hotspotting, but MAY work for rear heights.
If you’re on mobile, Tapatalk forum manager makes loading pics real easy. Not sure about other platforms. Maybe @ryanosaur knows? He’s smart…

 

[Goldhasmter916]

Here we go. Don’t judge the chaos please, I just moved in!

would be okay to stretch speaker budget to 2k if there are significant benefits

 

[Goldhasmter916]

The room size is without the build in cupboard. It’s 60cm deep and covers the whole wall. The main listening position would be towards the front of the bed (there is going to be a couch) I am considering putting the rear surrounds in there but that would create quite the echo chamber in there right?

I mean it would probably rather be 1.5 meter for rear surrounds if I place them in a 30 degree angle behind me.

I thought one side surround at the window other next to the door and rear height in the corners by the cupboard on each side.

here is a picture of front wall. I will wall Mount the tv and remove the sideboard its on.



thanks a lot for your time

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Judgement free here! I can show you the snake pit in my AV rack and you’ll feel better lol.
Well, glad you shared pics, I never would have imagined that space. Quickly, no, you definitely don’t want speakers in the cupboard, it will be horrible.
I’ll be busy awhile so hopefully someone can tag in with thoughts. This will be a less is more installation for sure. Also, love the banner, great picture, and what I will guess is a katana.

 

[Goldhasmter916]

Thank you .
Yes I bought the banner in Africa . The katana is actually a quite traditionally hand forged fully functional one.

the tv is a 1.5cm deep A95L oled which is the best consumer Display on the market along with the highest end gaming pc. I saved the better part of the last 5 years for all that stuff and all I am missing for the set up of my dreams is a equally great audio solution (within the possibilities of that room and a 4-5k budget)

 

[ryanosaur]

The only way I see this working passably well is if the room is dedicated to just a tv and sound system.
Realistically, you do not have room for much else other than a comfy-ish chair.
For us ‘mericans, that room is 9’10” x 13’1”… and if you want to use it laterally, there is no room for proper placement of that many speakers plus a chair.

perhaps if you were to use bipole speakers at Rear, you could push your seating back closer to a wall…

but this comes back to compromises that will negatively impact your enjoyment.

You would be far better off focusing on a proper 3.1 system to start. Then consider increasing, incrementally, from there.

Again, I can’t stress enough the benefit of laying out your room on paper. Make cutouts so you can move items around and see how they all fit.

The more you compromise, though, the worse the overall experience gets.

Sorry this isn’t what you may want to hear, but I’m being honest with you as it regards my own setup in a very small room. But that extra 2’ in each dimension really makes a difference!

 

[Goldhasmter916]

The only problem is the custom designed cupboard is property of my landlord and he doesn’t allow me to remove it.
except that I am willing to dedicate everything to the set up. I am Totally ok with just chair, tv and speakers. However if somehow possible without too much compromise I would prefer to have somewhat less then 30ish cm deep boxes right next to the flat wall mounted ultra thin tv, hence my idea with the vertically placed 15cm deep center channel.
thanks for your honest feedback!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Excellent! Me likey.
Also, you asked about coaxial speakers. I think this might be a perfect use for them. The main focus is imaging , vs high dynamic range, so placed correctly, some high quality smaller ones could work nicely.

 

[Goldhasmter916]

What would be the benefit of coaxial speakers in my situation? And why are they so good at imagingBecause it’s a point source? Would you localize the tweeter and woofer at those nearfield listening distances too much because of the distance between them in a two way design?
thats at least what I heard and why I considered the kef. Just wish there would be a little smaller alternative. They are 28cm deep.

yes you are right, I don’t need much dynamic range (I do have a very capable subwoofer however) nor output. finding whatever helps with imaging and soundstaging to create a as enveloping yet precise sound field as possible within that room and budget is the solution.

 

[ryanosaur]

A lot of modern Center Speakers are very poorly designed. The main focus of these designs is "lifestyle" application over Sound Quality. They are made to fit under a TV, usually in cubbies or on top of an entertainment console.
Placing most Speakers in Cubbies or smack up against a wall go against their ideal placement. Sealed designs give you more leeway in placement, but usually still benefit from being away from the wall a little.

Gotta ask, here, @Goldhasmter916 , whereabouts are you located? This makes a significant difference in gear we can recommend.

That said, if you were here in the US or perhaps Canada, I would suggest you look at Monoprice and Hsu for some of their Speaker options. Monoprice has their Monolith brand, and there are some decent on-wall options. With Hsu, you can get their CCB-8 Speakers which are very well reviewed and liked by many.
KEF isn't bad, but the q150 is their smallest option and stepping up to the larger q350 would pay dividends in dynamic capability.

Buying the most Speakers for cheapest price is never a winning strategy.

Start small and build. Get placement right for a 3.1 system and you will have a significantly better experience than jamming 11 Speakers into that room. This isn't something to take lightly and has been verified by folk time and again.
Once you get the 3.1 working, and you save up for the next step, add it when appropriate. From 3.1 to 5.1 (or even 5.1.2 will be better still for taking the time to do it right and making certain you understand placement needs.

 

[Goldhasmter916]

thanks a lot for your advice. sounds very reasonable and considerate to me.

i am located in germany. i am getting used to the thought to rather prioritize quality over quantity and as you say buy quality gear step by step. the kef q150 seem very appealing to me. can you recommend any other decent coaxial speakers other than the kef?

i think i would rather prefer to stay with the slimmer, less expensive q150.

i have seen they also have a center channel q250C which is slimmer in depth than the q150. do you think this one would also perform worse than a regular q150?

at least the data of erin looks good to me as far as i can tell.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

thanks a lot for your advice. sounds very reasonable and considerate to me.

i am located in germany. i am getting used to the thought to rather prioritize quality over quantity and as you say buy quality gear step by step. the kef q150 seem very appealing to me. can you recommend any other decent coaxial speakers other than the kef?

i think i would rather prefer to stay with the slimmer, less expensive q150.

i have seen they also have a center channel q250C which is slimmer in depth than the q150. do you think this one would also perform worse than a regular q150c?

I think elac has some. With kef, I’d stay with the bigger q350. Once the speakers are in the room, you’ll get used to them big or small. IMO the smaller 150’s aren’t so much smaller that they’d be invisible.