Trump GUILTY of Fraud

[mtrycrafts]

Good grief so the "punishment for this is. Engoron ordered that some of Rumps business licenses be rescinded as punishment. All I see, this is a slap and this is filled with so many loop holes. We would be in freaking jail.

Don't forget the $250 mil is coming, if not more.
Wondering if creditors want their loans due in 30-60 days.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So, did Trump attempt to purchase a firearm while under indictment for multiple felonies? Thats a charge they are hanging on Hunter Biden. Not trying to defend Hunter Biden but maybe they both need to be put in prison.

Hunter actually bought the handgun. But he got rid of it after several months.
He certainly made the appearance he wanted to buy but didn't in reality. Publicity stunt.

 

[Mr._Clark]

This was for the civil fraud lawsuit the State of New York filed against the various Trump companies. This trial has not yet begun. What with 91 criminal charges against Trump, it's easy to forget about this civil fraud case.

That is correct. I find the New York cases confusing due to the sheer volume of them.

The following is not really in response to your post, it's just my attempt to outline the various NY legal issues in case it's helpful to people reading this thread.

A note on terminology. "Guilty" applies to criminal cases, whereas "liable" applies to civil cases. The title of this thread really should be Trump Liable for Fraud. I'm not trying to be a geek about the terms, it's just that I find it confusing when people use them interchangeably.

For me, it helps to separate the cases (civil vs criminal) and the parties (Trump the individual vs a Trump business). Essentially, the NY cases fall into one 4 categories (Trump/civil, Trump/criminal, business/civil, business/criminal). In theory, one set of facts could lead to 4 separate cases.

The facts of the recent civil case (the one in which Trump was just found liable) involved Trump inflating the value of his properties on financial statements (false valuations). Bragg had been investigating the false valuations for potential criminal charges, but he decided not to indict Trump criminally for the false valuations. The false valuations were, however, the basis of the civil action we've been discussing in this thread:

>>>Attorney General Letitia James of New York filed a sweeping lawsuit on Wednesday that accused Donald J. Trump, his family business and three of his children of lying to lenders and insurers by fraudulently overvaluing his assets by billions of dollars. . . . The Manhattan criminal investigation [into the false valuations] has not resulted in charges.. Early this year, the Manhattan district attorney, Alvin L. Bragg, instructed prosecutors to halt their effort to seek to indict Mr. Trump after he and some of his aides developed concerns about proving a criminal case. Such cases require a higher burden of proof than a civil case like the one Ms. James has filed.<<<

N.Y. Attorney General Accuses Trump of ‘Staggering’ Fraud in Lawsuit (Published 2022)

The New York attorney general, Letitia James, is seeking to bar the Trump family from ever operating in the state again.

www.nytimes.com

From the nyt article above, it appears to me that state criminal charges based on the false valuations are still possible:

>>>The [civil] lawsuit also argued that the financial statements violated “a host of state laws.” Asked about the possibility of state charges, Mr. Bragg said in a statement that the investigation into Mr. Trump and his company is “active and ongoing.”<<<(disclaimer: I'm not sure if Bragg has made more recent statements about possible criminal charges for the false valuations)

Bragg did file criminal charges for tax fraud, which resulted in Wesselberg pleading guilty (and getting five months at the greybar hotel) and the Trump businesses being found guilty.

>>>Allen Weisselberg, the decades-long chief financial officer at former President Donald Trump's family business, was sentenced Tuesday to five months behind bars for financial crimes he committed while working as a top executive there. . . . Weisselberg, 75, pleaded guilty to 15 counts in August, including grand larceny tax fraud and falsifying business records. That paved the way for his testimony at the tax fraud trial of two of the Trump Organization's business entities: the Trump Corporation (which encompasses most of Trump's business empire) and the Trump Payroll Corporation (which processes payments to staff). . . . Under an agreement with prosecutors, Weisselberg agreed to testify in exchange for a lighter sentence. The Trump businesses were found guilty in December and will be sentenced at the end of this week. <<<

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148090095/trump-organization-tax-fraud-allen-weisselberg

Editorial comment: Weisselberg's testimony (in exchange for the reduced sentence) that he didn't conspire with Trump to commit tax fraud strikes me as suspicious. I can't help but wonder if Trump communicated to Weisselberg through his lawyers that it would be in his financial best interest not to testify directly against Trump.

The criminal conviction of Trump's business for tax fraud resulted in a $1.6 million criminal penalty:

>>>Former President Donald J. Trump’s family real estate business was ordered on Friday to pay a $1.6 million criminal penalty for its conviction on felony tax fraud and other charges, a stinging rebuke and the maximum possible punishment.<<

Trump’s Company Gets Maximum Punishment for Evading Taxes (Published 2023)

The Trump Organization must pay $1.6 million for giving executive off-the-books benefits and pay.

www.nytimes.com

From the npr article above, it appears to me that tax fraud criminal charges against Trump individually (not the Trump organization) are still possible:

>>>Trump was never charged in the scheme, but Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg has said the former president remains under investigation.<<<

And, of course, there is the pending criminal case against Trump for the porn star hush money:

>>>NEW YORK (AP) — A federal judge on Wednesday rejected Donald Trump ’s bid to move his hush-money criminal case from New York state court to federal court, ruling that the former president had failed to meet a high legal bar for changing jurisdiction.<<<

https://apnews.com/article/trump-new-york-indictment-stormy-daniels-cohen-e673f673d205a70275d05510793672f2


But, I tell ya, that Trump guy, he's a straight shooter! (sarcasm alert)

 

[lovinthehd]

Sure hope the IRS is looking into the drumphs....

 

[Mr._Clark]

Sure hope the IRS is looking into the drumphs....

Trump is one of the few people who has sufficient resources to overwhelm the IRS with mountains of documents:

>>>“With over 400 flow-thru returns reported on the Form 1040, it is not possible to obtain the resources available to examine all potential issues,” I.R.S. agents said of Mr. Trump’s tax returns in an internal memo that was released by the House Ways and Means Committee this week as part of its oversight of the mandatory presidential audit process.<<<

Trump Audit Shows Depths of I.R.S. Funding Woes (Published 2022)

The agency lacks the resources to go after rich taxpayers. For years, a single revenue agent was responsible for the audits of Donald J. Trump.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Mr._Clark]

This article provides a pretty decent overview of the case. Basically, no one knows for sure what will happen, but there are two likely outcomes.

>>>In a Wednesday hearing, Mr. Trump’s lawyers pleaded for clarity, asking Justice Engoron to explain exactly what the effect of his ruling would be.

The judge demurred. After huddling with his law clerk, Allison Greenfield, he said that he appreciated the Trump team’s concern but was “not prepared to just issue a ruling right now.” . . . If the judge’s decision stands, there are two paths forward for the business known as the Trump Organization.

The strictest possible reading of Justice Engoron’s order could spell the end of the Trump Organization as we know it, forcing a sell-off of several properties and imposing a death sentence on its New York operations.

More likely, legal experts said, is a period in which Mr. Trump would be unable to operate his properties, which would be handed to a court-appointed chief executive, potentially Ms. Jones. Such an arrangement would preserve Mr. Trump’s ownership while preventing him and his two adult sons, Donald Jr. and Eric Trump, who are also defendants, from running the machinery of their empire without permission from the court. . . .

The blows may keep coming. Ms. James is seeking to permanently bar Mr. Trump from running a business in New York and blocking him for five years from applying for loans from a financial institution registered in the state. Only once the civil trial is over will the full picture of the consequences emerge. <<<

Will a Judge’s Fraud Ruling Dismantle Trump’s New York Empire?

The judge overseeing the case said there would be no fast answers about the fate of the Trump Organization and its nearly dozen New York properties.

www.nytimes.com

The article also touches on the complexity of the organizational structure:

>>>The confusion surrounding Justice Engoron’s order to strip Mr. Trump of control over some properties stems partly from the company’s unorthodox corporate structure. The Trump Organization, in reality, is only a name for a constellation of hundreds of different legal entities that comprise Mr. Trump’s properties, ventures and other assets. Each is owned by Mr. Trump’s trust, and many are outside New York, and thus almost certainly beyond the reach of this case.<<<

One way or the other, it looks like it will be very difficult for Trump to continue doing business in New York. The AG is running him out of Dodge.

 

[Swerd]

This morning's Washington Post had an op-ed piece by David Von Drehle that nicely summarized Judge Engoron's recent ruling in this case. (I attached a PDF copy of this below for those who don't subscribe to the Post.) Here are a few tidbits that I liked:

This is a summary judgment, which means that the legal pleadings on Trump’s behalf were deemed so weak that they did not add up to a plausible argument. New York Supreme Court Justice Arthur F. Engoron actually fined Trump’s lawyers $7,500 each, essentially for wasting his time by repeating theories the judge had already rejected in rulings that have been affirmed on appeal.

You can imagine the ruckus Trump kicked up after the ruling was issued. “My Civil rights have been violated,” he declared. His companies have “done business perfectly.” It’s “a very sad day.” All the greatest hits. And nothing the judge hasn’t heard before from a real estate company that said a 10,000-square-foot apartment contains 30,000 square feet, “resulting in an overvaluation of $114-207 million dollars.”

Engoron marches through the lies:

• The rent-controlled apartments valued as though they could bring market rates;
• The roughly $30 million Westchester estate valued at nearly $300 million;
• The roughly $200 million share in a Wall Street skyscraper valued at more than $500 million;
• The $16 million golf courses valued in excess of $50 million each;
• The development in Scotland approved for roughly 500 homes valued as though it would contain more than 2,000 homes;
• The heavily deed-restricted Mar-a-Lago property in Florida valued as though there were no deed restrictions … and so on.

When he finishes the litany of lies, Engoron punches the button for a total and finds the financial condition of Trump’s companies was overstated by a minimum of more than $800 million – and perhaps more than $2 billion.

Trump’s frauds in business are of a piece with his ongoing fleecing of the voting public. He makes inflated claims – peace with North Korea, bringing China to heel, sealing the border – on the assumption that no one will hold him accountable. He pressures election officials to “find” extra votes the way he found an extra 20,000 square feet of penthouse inside his 10,000-square-foot home. He has the same regard for laws protecting classified documents that he has for deed restrictions on his properties.

Basically, Trump won't/can't stop lying. But we can stop listening.

 

[Mr._Clark]

This morning's Washington Post had an op-ed piece by David Von Drehle that nicely summarized Judge Engoron's recent ruling in this case. (I attached a PDF copy of this below for those who don't subscribe to the Post.) Here are a few tidbits that I liked:



Basically, Trump won't/can't stop lying. But we can stop listening.

I find myself wondering what his net worth really is. As I understand it, Trump avoids paying income taxes by living on money he borrows using his properties as collateral. If (big if) the estimates of his net worth are based on property valuations that are many times the real value, and if he has significant debt, his net worth could be almost nothing. His businesses might be similar to a gigantic "borrow from Peter to pay back Paul" type operation.

On the other hand, I'd be surprised if very many financial institutions would loan him amounts well in excess of the real value of the properties.

 

[Swerd]

I find myself wondering what his net worth really is. As I understand it, Trump avoids paying income taxes by living on money he borrows using his properties as collateral. If (big if) the estimates of his net worth are based on property valuations that are many times the real value, and if he has significant debt, his net worth could be almost nothing. His businesses might be similar to a gigantic "borrow from Peter to pay back Paul" type operation.

On the other hand, I'd be surprised if very many financial institutions would loan him amounts well in excess of the real value of the properties.

Didn't that already happen? No US banks would led him what he asked for. That's when Deutsche Bank stepped in.

 

[davidscott]

How many crimes does this guy have to be charged (and convicted in some cases so far) for the Republican leaders have to say enough is enough? I have little to no faith in his Maga base to ever expect them to come around. I'm no fan of Biden and if he committed crimes indict him if you have the proof. Biggest conman ever with no redeemable human decency traits.

 

[Mikado463]

18 mil for Mar-a-lago ? yeah that seems a wee bit low .........

Exclusive | Real estate insiders bewildered by judge’s $18M valuation of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago: ‘Would list at $300M’

Justice Arthur Engoron’s ruling raised eyebrows by valuing the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate at $18 million when comparable lots nearby ask much more.

nypost.com

 

[lovinthehd]

18 mil for Mar-a-lago ? yeah that seems a wee bit low .........

Exclusive | Real estate insiders bewildered by judge’s $18M valuation of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago: ‘Would list at $300M’

Justice Arthur Engoron’s ruling raised eyebrows by valuing the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate at $18 million when comparable lots nearby ask much more.

nypost.com

It was a county assessor's valuation, not the judge's, and the assessor gave it a range of $ 18-27.6 M that dates back some years, too.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Didn't that already happen? No US banks would led him what he asked for. That's when Deutsche Bank stepped in.

I believe Deutsche Bank gave him loans at favorable interest rates based on the false valuations, but I'm not sure if they loaned him more than the real value of the assets.

Even Duetsche eventually dumped Trump.

>>>The attorney general "is currently investigating whether the Trump Organization and Donald J. Trump improperly inflated the value of Mr. Trump's assets on annual financial statements in order to secure loans and obtain economic and tax benefits," James revealed in an August, 2020, court filing.

Two months would pass — and the 2020 presidential campaign would reach its final frenzy — before Deutsche Bank, already cooperating with the AG's subpoenas, began asking questions.<<<

Trump's secret, ugly breakup with Deutsche Bank is revealed in new allegations by NY's attorney general

When Donald Trump sold his DC hotel for $375 million this May, Deutsche Bank had the financial equivalent of a gun to his head, court filings reveal.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Swerd]

… As I understand it, Trump avoids paying income taxes by living on money he borrows using his properties as collateral. If (big if) the estimates of his net worth are based on property valuations that are many times the real value, and if he has significant debt, his net worth could be almost nothing. His businesses might be similar to a gigantic "borrow from Peter to pay back Paul" type operation.

That Business Insider article might explain a lot. Thanks.

After Deutsche Bank threatened him with default, he abandoned his old business plan (as you described above). Instead, he became a permanent candidate, always running for office, and always raising campaign funds. No loans to repay, no pesky letters from banks, and above all, no taxes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sure hope the IRS is looking into the drumphs....

From previous news programs and talk shows, one mentioned an IRS audit with due payment of $18 million, if memory serves me. they were at it for a long time, not sure if it was settled.

 

[Mr._Clark]

That Business Insider article might explain a lot. Thanks.

After Deutsche Bank threatened him with default, he abandoned his old business plan (as you described above). Instead, he became a permanent candidate, always running for office, and always raising campaign funds. No loans to repay, no pesky letters from banks, and above all, no taxes.

Another aspect of this is that Trump had agreed to personal liability on another loan from Deutsche bank in order to get a 2% rate rather than 8%. He was also required to maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion:

>>>But after shopping the loan around to other banks, Vrablic offered the best loan: her division’s deal came with a 2% interest rate vs. the commercial real estate division’s offer of 8%. “It doesn’t get better than this,” Ivanka Trump said. The tradeoff was that Trump would personally have to guarantee the full amount of the loan—$125 million—and maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion and $50 million in unencumbered liquidity.<<<

How Donald Trump got his Deutsche Bank loans

The New York attorney general is suing Donald Trump for defrauding banks

qz.com

The need to maintain the $2.5 billion in net worth appears to be one of the main things driving Trump's wildly inflated property values. Trump was personally on the hook so the bank had him by the balls.

Despite all the bluster, a lot of Trump's actions over the past several years appear to be driven by desperation.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Trump has been making numerous public statements to the effect that his financial statements cannot be fraudulent because the statements included disclaimers. The judge considered this argument in his ruling. He was not impressed:

>>>Non- Party Disclaimers
Defendants , yet again , argue that OAG's complaint must be dismissed because the contain
language , provided by non- party accountants Mazars , that indicate that they have not audited or
reviewed the accompanying financial statements and therefore cannot express an opinion as to
whether the financial statements comply with Generally Accepted Accounting Principles
( GAAP ) However , as this Court already ruled , these non -party disclaimers do not insulate
defendants from liability , as they plainly state that Donald J. Trump is responsible for the
preparation and fair presentation of the financial statement in accordance with accounting
principles generally accepted in the United States of America and for designing , implementing ,
and maintaining internal control relevant to the preparation and fair presentation of the financial
statement." NYSCEF Doc. No. 183 .

As this Court explained in its November 3 , 2022 Decision and Order : [ the law is abundantly
clear that using a disclaimer as a defense to a justifiable reliance claim requires proof that : ( 1)
the disclaimer is made sufficiently specific to the particular type of fact misrepresented or
undisclosed; and (2) the alleged misrepresentations or omissions did not concern facts peculiarly
within the [ defendant's ] knowledge. Basis Yield Alpha Fund ( Master) v Goldman Sachs Grp .
Inc. 115 AD3d 128, 137 ( 1st Dept 2014) ( a [plaintiff] may not be precluded from claiming
reliance on misrepresentation of facts peculiarly within the [defendant's] knowledge ) ; People v
Bull Inv. Grp. , Inc., 46 AD2d 25 , 29 (3d Dept 1974) (It has been stated that [ the rule is clear
that where one party to a transaction has superior knowledge , or means of knowledge not open to
both parties alike , he is under a legal obligation to speak and his silence constitutes fraud ) . As
the did not particularize the type of fact misrepresented or undisclosed and were
unquestionably based on information peculiarly within defendants knowledge , defendants may
not rely on such purported disclaimers as a defense.

In sum, the Mazars disclaimers put the onus for accuracy squarely on defendants shoulders.<<< (emphasis added)

Note: I copied this from a .pdf copy of the court Decision at the link below. The copy appears to be generally accurate, but the OCR did create some incorrect spacing, etc. and I have not attempted to correct all of the OCR errors.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/trump-judges-ruling/ce6de7d636227e1b/full.pdf

 

[mtrycrafts]

Another aspect of this is that Trump had agreed to personal liability on another loan from Deutsche bank in order to get a 2% rate rather than 8%. He was also required to maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion:

>>>But after shopping the loan around to other banks, Vrablic offered the best loan: her division’s deal came with a 2% interest rate vs. the commercial real estate division’s offer of 8%. “It doesn’t get better than this,” Ivanka Trump said. The tradeoff was that Trump would personally have to guarantee the full amount of the loan—$125 million—and maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion and $50 million in unencumbered liquidity.<<<

How Donald Trump got his Deutsche Bank loans

The New York attorney general is suing Donald Trump for defrauding banks

qz.com

The need to maintain the $2.5 billion in net worth appears to be one of the main things driving Trump's wildly inflated property values. Trump was personally on the hook so the bank had him by the balls.

Despite all the bluster, a lot of Trump's actions over the past several years appear to be driven by desperation.

Two things: It seems Ivanka is involved in the business; wondering if that Vrablic is trying to verify that $2.5 billion asset worth so if it is below to call the loan.

 

[Mr._Clark]

The trial is beginning to resemble a 3-ring circus:

>>>A woman was arrested Wednesday after she stood up at Donald Trump’s New York civil fraud trial and walked toward the front of the courtroom where the former president was sitting.

The woman, later identified as a court employee, retreated after a court officer told her to return to her seat. A short time later, officers escorted the woman out of the Manhattan courtroom and arrested her. . . . She was later heard screaming in the courthouse lobby as officers removed her from the building. <<<

Woman arrested after trying to get close to Trump at New York trial; she says she's a supporter

A spectator at Donald Trump’s civil fraud trial was arrested after standing up in the middle of testimony and walking toward the front of the room.

apnews.com

Trump predictably engaged in a tantrum similar to what one would expect from a 2-year old who doesn't want his diaper changed.

>>>Trump railed about that exchange [between his lawyers and the state's lawyers] during a court break.

“See what’s happened? The government lied. They just lie. They didn’t reveal all of the information that they had,” Trump said. “They didn’t reveal all the evidence that made me totally innocent of anything that they say.”<<<

Poor little Trumpy Wumpy, always the victim.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I should have mentioned that the AP article has a decent summary of the issues in the trial:

>>>Trump’s civil trial involves six claims in James’ lawsuit that weren’t resolved in Engoron’s pretrial ruling, including allegations of conspiracy, insurance fraud and falsifying business records. Engoron will decide the case, not a jury, because state law doesn’t allow one in this type of lawsuit.<<<