Trump GUILTY of Fraud

isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
“See what’s happened? The government lied. They just lie. They didn’t reveal all of the information that they had,” Trump said. “They didn’t reveal all the evidence that made me totally innocent of anything that they say.”
He seems to forget he has already been found guilty....
I bet ya 5 rusty nickels that if he gets hit with a 250 million judgement, he is dead broke...that's why he keeps going there.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
He seems to forget he has already been found guilty....
I bet ya 5 rusty nickels that if he gets hit with a 250 million judgement, he is dead broke...that's why he keeps going there.
As said before, guilty isn't the operative term in this civil case. He could pull 250M out of his stupid supporter's funding I'd think.
 
isolar8001

isolar8001

Audioholic General
As said before, guilty isn't the operative term in this civil case. He could pull 250M out of his stupid supporter's funding I'd think.
Yeah...he could.
Just think how many trailer park landlords are gonna be pissed when the lot fees come up short !!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah...he could.
Just think how many trailer park landlords are gonna be pissed when the lot fees come up short !!
It is mind boggling why people of limited means (little intelligence is far more understandable) keep donating to this grifter.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The trial is beginning to resemble a 3-ring circus:
. . .
This is probably the most predictable news headline in some time:

>>>Trump clashes with New York judge as fraud trial devolves into chaos<<<

 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
A couple thoughts on the Trump circus.

First, the basics.

The $250 million the AG is asking for is the amount of profit Trump made by falsifying his property values.

Trump undoubtedly knew the values were false and that he might have to disgorge the profits if he was caught. It was a business decision. Trump apparently figured that falsely inflating property values was a no risk choice because even if he was caught, paying back the $250 Million in extra profits from lying would be a break even proposition.

On the other hand, It seems unlikely that Trump fully understood the risk that he could lose his NY business license. However, the judge already decided that issue and it's on appeal so nothing he says now will effect the outcome of that.

In terms of the circus show today, Trump didn't say anything that helped his case. Why was this? Why net set the record straight? The problem for Trump is that there are no truthful statements that will help Trump. So instead he rants and raves like a wack job to distract people from the very obvious fact that he hasn't said anything that will help his case.

To borrow a line form Cool Hand Luke: "What we've got here is... failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it... well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men."
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
The $250 million the AG is asking for is the amount of profit Trump made by falsifying his property values.

Trump undoubtedly knew the values were false and that he might have to disgorge the profits if he was caught. It was a business decision. Trump apparently figured that falsely inflating property values was a no risk choice because even if he was caught, paying back the $250 Million in extra profits from lying would be a break even proposition.
Can the judge award punitive damages in this case?
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Can the judge award punitive damages in this case?
I think the answer is "no" but I have not researched this issue in detail. Here's the section of the law:

>>>the attorney general may apply . . . for an order . . . directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any [business] certificate . . .<<<(emphasis added)

https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/executive-law/exc-sect-63/

NY law might conceivably define "restitution and damages" in an unusual way that could include penalties that are traditionally considered to be punitive damages, but this strikes me as being unlikely.

Of course, the above applies to the substantive law. Judges have discretion to sanction parties for process-related issues (e.g. refusal to comply with court orders).

As an aside, one of Trump's "defenses" in his public statements is that the banks didn't lose any money as a result of his property valuations. First, this is not a legal defense because the NY law only requires the act of fraud, and restitution is not based on a loss by a third party. Here's a fairly typical definition of restitution:

>>>In civil cases: A remedy associated with unjust enrichment in which the amount of recovery is typically based on the defendant's gain rather than the plaintiff's loss.<<<


Second, Trump's argument that the banks didn't lose money is specious because it's quite possible that the banks would have charged a higher interest rate and made more money if Trump would have provided them with accurate valuations. These types of damages are of course difficult to prove, but that does not mean they don't exist.

Third, based on the accounts I've seen, Trump paid the banks back precisely because the banks realized they'd been given false information and the banks were about to drop the hammer on Trump in court. By itself, this doesn't mean that the banks lost money, but it undermines Trump's assertions implying that he did nothing wrong.

I'd concede that the "no one lost any money" argument could apply to the AG's decision to bring the fraud action, but crying about the AG's decision is basically akin to child crying about getting caught with his hand in the cookie jar and mom sending him to his room for an hour as she'd previously told him she'd do.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Or take his money. :)
Funny thing about judgments- they don't always have the results people think or want to see. According to the link about NY courts, "A judgment is good for 20 years, but if the plaintiff wants to enforce the judgment against land it is only good for 10 years unless the plaintiff renews it for another 10 years." and the plaintiff doesn't get a check at the conclusion of the case.

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Lock him up ! ;)
You’ll have to wait until he is convicted and sentenced in one of the criminal cases, unless he breaks his bail conditions. A contempt of court could land him in jail as well, if I’m not mistaken.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Another aspect of this is that Trump had agreed to personal liability on another loan from Deutsche bank in order to get a 2% rate rather than 8%. He was also required to maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion:

>>>But after shopping the loan around to other banks, Vrablic offered the best loan: her division’s deal came with a 2% interest rate vs. the commercial real estate division’s offer of 8%. “It doesn’t get better than this,” Ivanka Trump said. The tradeoff was that Trump would personally have to guarantee the full amount of the loan—$125 million—and maintain a net worth of $2.5 billion and $50 million in unencumbered liquidity.<<<


The need to maintain the $2.5 billion in net worth appears to be one of the main things driving Trump's wildly inflated property values. Trump was personally on the hook so the bank had him by the balls.

Despite all the bluster, a lot of Trump's actions over the past several years appear to be driven by desperation.
The Deutsche bank loan came up at trial today during Ivanka's testimony. This appears to be the single biggest transaction at issue in the case (I don't feel like googling it right now, but I seem to recall that this one transaction acounts for $150 million of the $250 million the state is seeking in fraudulently obtained benefits).

>>>The origins of the Trump Organization’s relationship with Deutsche Bank quickly took focus during Ivanka Trump’s testimony at her family's civil fraud trial on Wednesday. . . . Emails introduced into evidence while Ivanka Trump testified detail the relationship further.

In a message dated Dec. 6, 2011, Ivanka Trump told Vrablic: “My father and I are very much looking forward to meeting with you tomorrow to discuss Doral,” referring to the South Florida golf club that the Trump Organization acquired. . . .

In an email dated Dec. 15, 2011, Ivanka Trump told then-Trump Organization chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg and other executives: “It doesn’t get better than this. lets discuss asap.”

The Trump Organization’s then-executive vice president Jason Greenblatt responded four minutes later: “I will review, but not [sic, note] immediately that this is a FULL principal and interest and operating expense personal DJT guaranty. Is DJT willing to do that? Also, the net worth covenants and DJT indebtedness limitations would seem to be a problem?

In 2011, Trump’s net worth was $1.6 billion, according to the attorney general’s calculations. The Trump Organization claimed on statements of financial condition that it was $4.3 billion. After some discussion, the bank lowered the covenant to obligate Trump to maintain at $2.5 billion net worth.<<<


The Greenblatt email saying that the net worth requirement "would seem to be a problem" is potentially somewhat ambiguous, but it certainly doesn't help Trump's defense. The defense can of course argue that "a problem" doesn't mean his real net worth was less than the required amount, but the response to that is "If his net worth was well above the require amount, why would it "seem to be a problem"?

Although a lot of Trump's anger appears to be acting, I suspect that Trump might be frustrated by the trial because it's exposing his dishonesty in his dealings with other large businesses. His pride in his business seems to be the main thing defining his own self worth. He lies constantly when speaking in public, but that's "just" lying to the American public. He probably believed that lying to the public wouldn't hurt his credibility with other businesses.

Being called out publicly for lying to a major bank is different because it demonstrates to potential business partners that Trump will lie to anyone if he thinks it will help him make a buck. This will likely hurt his business going forward because the other parties will require more onerous terms to compensate for Trump's propensity to lie.

Mazar's dump of Trump is probably an example of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/nyregion/mazars-trump-organization-financial-statements.html

My theory on what might be going on in Trump's head is of course speculative, and it rests on the shaky presumption that there is something going on in his head (yeah, that last part was a cheap shot, but who cares?)

Another side note: borrowing is key to Trump's strategy of avoiding income tax. Rather than receiving income from his businesses and paying taxes on it, he just borrows money perpetually because the interest is less than he'd pay in taxes, and the value of the real estate hopefully goes up more than the very low interest rate he's paying, so he can just refinance and borrow more.

If he cannot get highly favorable interest rates to live on borrowed money, it will have a big negative effect on his tax-avoidance strategy. Conceivably, poor Trumpy Wumpy might even have to pay income taxes like all of the working stiffs who believe he's fighting for them in some way (this is of course ironic given that he's fighting precisely because he doesn't want to be like them).
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
You’ll have to wait until he is convicted and sentenced in one of the criminal cases, unless he breaks his bail conditions. A contempt of court could land him in jail as well, if I’m not mistaken.
In theory he could get locked up if he's convicted the NY hush money (Stormy Daniels) criminal case, but the reality is that even if he's convicted no judge will give him jail time for a conviction in that criminal case.

My best guess is that the Georgia case has the highest odds of landing him in the slammer, even though the Florida documents case is probably a stronger case from a purely legal perspective. The judge in the Florida case is showing signs of going off the rails, but I doubt that anyone in the Georgia legal system gives a rat's arse about the fact that Trump was president at the time he attempted to interfere with the Georgia election results.

This is highly speculative on my part, but I get the feeling that, given the history between the north and south, having someone from Washington DC/NYC come down to Georgia looking for some votes to steal (aplogies to Charlie Daniels, RIP) doesn't sit well with people across a fairly broad political spectrum.

The devil went down to Georgia, he was lookin' for some votes to steal
He was in a bind 'cause he was way behind
And he was willin' to make a deal
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
. . . The judge in the Florida case is showing signs of going off the rails . . .
It's official, judge Cannon has now gone off the rails. Her delay of relatively simple CIPA hearings is very odd, to say the least.

It's possible she's just clueless, but it sure looks like she's trying to throw sand in the gears of the other criminal cases against Trump.

>>>U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon has pushed back what might have been a one- or two-day meeting with prosecutors to review classified documents until February. On Thursday, she also refused to even schedule a court hearing to hear what sensitive national security documents Trump’s lawyers want to use at trial—until sometime after March 1. It’s a one-two punch that will potentially delay the trial by up to four months.

But by keeping her scheduled May 2024 trial date in Florida, she actually made it worse for judges overseeing Trump cases in Atlanta, New York City, and Washington—a feat that’s akin to booking a restaurant reservation one doesn’t intend to keep.

“The tricky thing is, it puts them in limbo. Another judge could schedule something for May but may not want to, because it’s possible trial will still go in May. If you’re a cynic—and I’m not—you might say she deliberately did this,” said Brian Greer, a former CIA lawyer who spent years working on cases involving classified records.<<<


Cannon is probably the only federal judge in the entire country that would rule the way she has. I'm starting to wonder if Trump has a "luck" superpower similar to Domino.

>>>. . . Domino possesses mutant probability-altering powers.<<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_(character)

Maybe the QAnon people were right all along and Trump really is an alien mutant of some sort? (Alert: that was lame attempt at humor, I'm not out of my Vulcan mind)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
It's official, judge Cannon has now gone off the rails. Her delay of relatively simple CIPA hearings is very odd, to say the least.

It's possible she's just clueless, but it sure looks like she's trying to throw sand in the gears of the other criminal cases against Trump.

>>>U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon has pushed back what might have been a one- or two-day meeting with prosecutors to review classified documents until February. On Thursday, she also refused to even schedule a court hearing to hear what sensitive national security documents Trump’s lawyers want to use at trial—until sometime after March 1. It’s a one-two punch that will potentially delay the trial by up to four months.

But by keeping her scheduled May 2024 trial date in Florida, she actually made it worse for judges overseeing Trump cases in Atlanta, New York City, and Washington—a feat that’s akin to booking a restaurant reservation one doesn’t intend to keep.

“The tricky thing is, it puts them in limbo. Another judge could schedule something for May but may not want to, because it’s possible trial will still go in May. If you’re a cynic—and I’m not—you might say she deliberately did this,” said Brian Greer, a former CIA lawyer who spent years working on cases involving classified records.<<<


Cannon is probably the only federal judge in the entire country that would rule the way she has. I'm starting to wonder if Trump has a "luck" superpower similar to Domino.

>>>. . . Domino possesses mutant probability-altering powers.<<<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_(character)

Maybe the QAnon people were right all along and Trump really is an alien mutant of some sort? (Alert: that was lame attempt at humor, I'm not out of my Vulcan mind)
Is it too late to file grievances against her in that district? Change of judge?
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Is it too late to file grievances against her in that district? Change of judge?
As a practical matter, there's almost no chance that that the DOJ can win a motion asking her to recuse herself, or win a motion to recuse on appeal.

>>>The author has yet to find a single case in the Eleventh Circuit where the court of appeals has required a judge to recuse themselves based on pervasive bias and prejudice emanating from their judicial decisions.

An added challenge in alleging bias and requesting recusal under Section 455 is that the same judge who is having his or her impartiality questioned hears the initial request. This results in almost all requests being denied. On appeal, the Eleventh Circuit reviews cases for abuse of discretion, a much higher bar requiring the court of appeals not only to find that a judge probably should have recused himself or herself, but to find that the potential bias was so significant that the judge was mandated to recuse. . . . Unless Judge Cannon decides to voluntarily recuse, the high bar for requesting recusal based only on prior judicial decisions, and the procedure for requesting recusal, makes the task of having Cannon recused seem almost impossible.<<<(emphasis added)


It's a catch-22 because a highly biased judge is unlikely to recuse himself/herself on the basis that he/she is biased. It's also very difficult to win on appeal because it's very difficult to show abuse of discretion.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Pretty fishy. How did Cannon get the trial in the first place?
 

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