lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I just read the asr review and a lot of this stuff went over my head.

So I have a question about using the rz50 with 4 ohm speakers.

In real world situation where we are listing at -15 to -20 would this likely trip the avr and send it into only producing the 30w/ ch that has been mentioned in this thread?

Or is that only once it reached reference level sound?

I'm tossing up between this avr at $2100 and an anthem mrx740 at $3500 and am struggling to see the double the price benefit of the anthem.

Also, if it makes a difference I'm running a 3ch amc power amp for my lcr, it's rated at 240w/ch into 4 ohms. Hopefully that's a correct rating.

Thanks
AMC power amp? As to tripping protection at -15 to -20, not all that likely I'd think.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
AMC power amp? As to tripping protection at -15 to -20, not all that likely I'd think.
I ignored the brand just because, at this point, there are so many I can't keep track anymore.

I'm curious to see what speakers they want to use. If the lowest point is 4 ohm, then an AVR will probably work, but if the low point is even lower than that, then maybe not.

I seem to remember a recently reviewed AVR not doing well at a 4 ohm load. Can't remember which one though, but it was a newer class D model.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I ignored the brand just because, at this point, there are so many I can't keep track anymore.

I'm curious to see what speakers they want to use. If the lowest point is 4 ohm, then an AVR will probably work, but if the low point is even lower than that, then maybe not.

I seem to remember a recently reviewed AVR not doing well at a 4 ohm load. Can't remember which one though, but it was a newer class D model.
I'm just more wondering what AMC is, not familiar with the brand....can't think of any new class D avrs off the top of my head, tho.
 
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
What speakers are you going to use? If they're demanding enough, an AVR amp might not be up to snuff. If you've got an external amp already, which it sounds like you do, then I wouldn't worry so much about the amp section of whatever AVR you're trying to choose from.
I'm running m&k s150 lcr, haven't found surrounds yet but will be m&k as well.
 
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
I'm just more wondering what AMC is, not familiar with the brand....can't think of any new class D avrs off the top of my head, tho.
Its a brand available here in Australia. I think they're also available in the USA.

Not a very common brand, I guess.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Its a brand available here in Australia. I think they're also available in the USA.

Not a very common brand, I guess.
Nice speakers!!!! Hey can you send us a link to info about that amp? It will help us if we can look up the specs see if it's the right amplifier for you to use rather then the Reciever

Also asr and others can get that Reciever to go into protect mode using test loads but so far I haven't heard of anyone having issues with the protection mode in real world usage

But just to be safe I'd use an amplifier if I already had one which you do
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
I'm just more wondering what AMC is, not familiar with the brand....can't think of any new class D avrs off the top of my head, tho.
I think these are the ones he is talking about Lovin hoping to confirm with him that I have the right brand

25100mkii_1-e1601698732292-2.jpg
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Its a brand available here in Australia. I think they're also available in the USA.

Not a very common brand, I guess.
If that's the right amp then it's 4ohm stable and puts out 140 watts into 4 ohms. Those M&K are 92 dB efficient and they are designed to use with a subwoofer so anything under 80hz the amp doesn't have to drive so I think the amp you have should work just fine for driving those speakers
 
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
I think these are the ones he is talking about Lovin hoping to confirm with him that I have the right brand

View attachment 62920
Yup!

Thats the one.

I think they're meant to be 240w into 4ohm? The 3 channel one I have is 150w into 8 ohms.

There's 2 different ones

5ch 100w into 8 ohms
And a high current 3 and 2 channel which are 150w into 8 ohms.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
Oh okay so they have a higher power option which you already have. Yeah since your crossing those M&K over at 80hz that amplifier is going to be just perfect for your needs Id just use the preouts then. That way you don't have to even worry about that protection mode being activated.

That would be what I would do
Apart from the amp section, is there any other reason the anthem would be worth almost double the cost?
 
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Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Apart from the amp section, is there any other reason the anthem would be worth almost double the cost?
If you like the feature set and the DSP modes that you can get from the Onkyo since you have a amplifier to run your front 3 and both receivers have great room EQ the Onkyo Dirac and Anthem Arc I'd say there really isn't any benefit to getting the Anthem other then taking a hit from your wallet
 
D

dlaloum

Full Audioholic
I ignored the brand just because, at this point, there are so many I can't keep track anymore.

I'm curious to see what speakers they want to use. If the lowest point is 4 ohm, then an AVR will probably work, but if the low point is even lower than that, then maybe not.

I seem to remember a recently reviewed AVR not doing well at a 4 ohm load. Can't remember which one though, but it was a newer class D model.
the 4 ohm spec is nominal - any speaker with "nominal" 4 ohm will have dips that go well below that!

Reviews of AVR's from Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, have all shown issues with handling of 4ohm nominal speakers... basically the mass market AVR's don't have a sufficiently robust power supply to provide the amps needed for low impedance speakers.
 
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
the 4 ohm spec is nominal - any speaker with "nominal" 4 ohm will have dips that go well below that!

Reviews of AVR's from Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, have all shown issues with handling of 4ohm nominal speakers... basically the mass market AVR's don't have a sufficiently robust power supply to provide the amps needed for low impedance speakers.
Would that essentially be negated if running a 3ch power amp?
 
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dlaloum

Full Audioholic
Would that essentially be negated if running a 3ch power amp?
Yes.

Most of the load is always the front L/C/R channels - the surround and height channels are typically used much more lightly - even during dramatic special effects.
Also the speakers used for surround and height channels are normally much less demanding in terms of impedance dips and phase angles....

So you take the 3 front channels off the AVR, you have removed more than 50% of the load on the power supply - it is not surprising, that it can then handle the rest of the channels without strain/stress!!

If you have very difficult speakers, it would be best to choose an external power amp that can "feed" them without strain... but even if its specs are relatively similar to the AVR (in terms of power) - the fact that it has its own dedicated power supply, and that you have removed that load from the AVR, can still result in improved performance.

In my case the front LCR are powered by amps that can put out 440W@8ohm and 1200W@2ohm, where the AVR is 100W@8ohm and not rated for 4ohm or 2 ohm.... - My power amps barely idle, even at the most thunderous effects... and the AVR cruises along feeding the rest of the channels without stress.

It makes for a good value system, making the most of the AVR power amps to feed surround and heights economically, and the cost of the power amps (purchased used) was far less than the cost to purchase an AVR that could do the job for my speakers in the first place.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the link, just hadn't run into these amps before. Would love to see some 3rd party bench tests, know of any?

The amp ratings are more peak oriented than continuous fwiw (the 150wpc/8ohm and 240wpc/4 ohm are based on a 1khz rating at clipping, clipping presumably being 1% but not stated particularly), so just a bit different depending what ratings you're comparing to. Not all that different from the RZ50's on-board amps but offloading the power supply needs of the avr would likely still be beneficial using the external amp.
 
K

kalkent

Enthusiast
Thanks for the link, just hadn't run into these amps before. Would love to see some 3rd party bench tests, know of any?

The amp ratings are more peak oriented than continuous fwiw (the 150wpc/8ohm and 240wpc/4 ohm are based on a 1khz rating at clipping, clipping presumably being 1% but not stated particularly), so just a bit different depending what ratings you're comparing to. Not all that different from the RZ50's on-board amps but offloading the power supply needs of the avr would likely still be beneficial using the external amp.
Thanks for that.

A lot of that stuff goes over my head.

So essentially it's not a great power amp and probably doesn't drive my speakers much better than an avr apart from taking some stress off the avr itself?

I dont know any third party resting. There's not a lot of info out there on them, unfortunately.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand any avrs can drive 4 ohm speakers given the right conditions, and most budget priced power amps such as this AMC thing, or even the better known Monolith, NAD, Anthem, cannot drive 4 ohm speakers under another sort of "right conditions".

@Steve81 : You are a superb technical writer and I think Audioholics might have an article, might have be by you, if not Gene, but would you consider writing another one that will answer the frequently ask "do I need an external amp, can my avr drive my 4 ohm speaker, or 8 ohm speaker that dips to 3.5 ohm, etc.etc.etc,, and make the article easy to find, and/or link by us regular members so we don't have to keep repeating the same thing every other week? Once and for all, please...

Note that I know it may be just my wishful thinking, but it is tiring to see the same kind of questions asked so many times, and since we like to help, we have to repeat ourselves so many times. So I hope Steve, or Gene can come up with something..

Back to the point I want to make again, I think we can agree that almost every long time members, at least on Audiohlics, ASR, AVS etc., seems to know, or claim to know, even quoted Ohms law and the power formula:

V=IR,
P=I*I*R=V*V/R=V*I

combined with important known facts:

1) speaker sensitivity is often expressed as X dB/2.83V/meter, or X dB/W/meter (less common, not preferred form)
2) each time you double the distance, say from 1 meter to 2 meter, you lose 6 dB of SPL (sound pressure level)
3) while 2) above shows distance is a huge factor, most room will have a room gain of about 3 dB in the mid bass to deep bass range so all that 6 dB is not loss, especially when subwoofers are used.
4) THX standard that many movie cinema follow, is to aim for SPL of 85 dB (sort of average, "reference level"), 105 dB peak
5) most home theater users will likely feel reference level is too loud and most will likely be happy enough with 75 dB average, 95 dB peak, many just don't know, don't care what spl they are listening to, but 75 dB/95 dB, imo is a good bet. For me, it is more like 70/90, occasionally 75/95 just for the extra thrill.
6) To gain 3 dB SPL, power has to increase by 2 times, and to gain 10 dB, power must increase by 10 times, conversely, if you are happy with 10 dB lower SPL, your power requirement will drop by 10 times too.
7) Even very low impedance dips may not be an issue for even an AVR because it depends on the bandwidth of the dip, and the duration of the dip, so it depends a lot of the media contents

It is so evident from the above commonly known and understood simple electrical formula that any AVRs can drive 4 ohm speakers, one cannot generalize and has to gather up the surrounding facts. If one simply grabs one of those so called 4 ohm capable power amp such as the entry level Emotiva Bas X A series, they may or may not do justice to their speakers, and/or could have just use their AVR and would have been fine.

Here is a numercal example, using the OP's M&K S150:

sensitivity: 92 dB/2.84V/m
impedance: 4 ohm
Thanks to @ErinH , (I hope this is the same Erin of Erin's audio corner and if not, someone will correct me) we have the needed info, instead of the silly single number, to work with:

Again, don't blindly base your decision on the single value, look at the graphs!
From this graph, you can see that phase angle is not an issue, but the dip below 5 ohms spans the range between about 120 Hz and 800 Hz could be.

Still, if the OP sits within 10 ft, and listen to no louder than 10 dB below reference, most a lot of people do, the RZ50 will do fine. It is obviously better to use a 3 channel external amp, but I am not sure about this AMC amp, their website does not provide much information, and the emphasis on "True RMS power" sounds an alarm to me, there is no such thing as RMS power, though it is widely used, so I am only alarmed by the facts that they says:
"150 Watts True RMS Power per Channel, with 240Watts RMS Power per Channel at 4 Ohm Driven"
Such wording just don't inspire confidence, and if you look into the instruction manual, there is no 4 ohm power output rating, it just says 150 W (IMF) 8 ohm, clipping power 160 W 8 ohm

Why reference "IMF", that seems like a term/standard, rarely used in specifying power amp outputs these days?
They also claim "oversized" transformer, but there is no evidence of that if you look at the size of it in the picture.

Miller & Kreisel S150 Speaker Review (erinsaudiocorner.com)

1692276628373.png


The amp is still going to help for sure, but I would highly recommend the OP go with a more mainstay 3 channel, 200 W 8 ohms, 300 W 4 ohms rated power amp such as those offered by Monolith, that may not be available in Australia. There is also the Hypex class D amp options, such as March Audio's:

Amplifiers - March Audio

My suggestion is, try the Onkyo RZ50 AVR first, you may be surprised, that it can do the job nicely, if not then go to plan B.
 
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