Equipment for Focal speakers

[Sujain14]

Hi
I am new to AH and will say learning a lot
I am in process of building my home theater
I am setting up 7.2.4 for home theater and 6 IC speakers in bar area
The speakers i have are Focal 1000 series IW LCR 6 for front three, 300 series IW6 for surround and rear, 300 ICIW 6 for 4 atmos. Finally 100 series ICST 6 for bar area 3 pairs
I am looking for AV receivers and trying to choose and also considering adding 3 channel amp for front LCR (Parasound Halo or Anthem 325). I am considering Anthem MRX 1140 or Denon X6700 or 4800, Marantz 8015 or Cinema 40, Sony EZ7000. My question is if i preout can I use free amp channels as zone 2 for my 3 pairs of distributive audio in bar. Secondly as front focal LCR are rated with sensitivity of 91 db and amp power range 20-250 W do i need amp for front LCR. Not able to pinpoint on equipment as too many options. Just wanted to make right call and use these speakers to there best ability

 

[everettT]

Hi
I am new to AH and will say learning a lot
I am in process of building my home theater
I am setting up 7.2.4 for home theater and 6 IC speakers in bar area
The speakers i have are Focal 1000 series IW LCR 6 for front three, 300 series IW6 for surround and rear, 300 ICIW 6 for 4 atmos. Finally 100 series ICST 6 for bar area 3 pairs
I am looking for AV receivers and trying to choose and also considering adding 3 channel amp for front LCR (Parasound Halo or Anthem 325). I am considering Anthem MRX 1140 or Denon X6700 or 4800, Marantz 8015 or Cinema 40, Sony EZ7000. My question is if i preout can I use free amp channels as zone 2 for my 3 pairs of distributive audio in bar. Secondly as front focal LCR are rated with sensitivity of 91 db and amp power range 20-250 W do i need amp for front LCR. Not able to pinpoint on equipment as too many options. Just wanted to make right call and use these speakers to there best ability

The LCR6 dips below 3.5 ohms at 100hz, which would need a good amp if you're going to drive the system at moderate levels. Also, you're gonna want the ability to eq as the response from the mid-range to the tweeter is a steep rise.

Here are the Klippel measurements so you can see the details.

Focal 1000 IWLCR6 In-Wall Speaker Review

Focal 1000 IWLCR6 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Eppie]

Hi
I am new to AH and will say learning a lot
I am in process of building my home theater
I am setting up 7.2.4 for home theater and 6 IC speakers in bar area
The speakers i have are Focal 1000 series IW LCR 6 for front three, 300 series IW6 for surround and rear, 300 ICIW 6 for 4 atmos. Finally 100 series ICST 6 for bar area 3 pairs
I am looking for AV receivers and trying to choose and also considering adding 3 channel amp for front LCR (Parasound Halo or Anthem 325). I am considering Anthem MRX 1140 or Denon X6700 or 4800, Marantz 8015 or Cinema 40, Sony EZ7000. My question is if i preout can I use free amp channels as zone 2 for my 3 pairs of distributive audio in bar. Secondly as front focal LCR are rated with sensitivity of 91 db and amp power range 20-250 W do i need amp for front LCR. Not able to pinpoint on equipment as too many options. Just wanted to make right call and use these speakers to there best ability

In general, yes, but it varies by manufacturer so you need to carefully read the manuals for the models you are considering. For example, I just purchased the X4800H. It has 9 channels of amplification. A 7.2.4 setup requires 11 channels just for the theatre zone (not the bar area). With the X4800H you can assign two of the pre-amp outs to two channels connected to a separate stereo amp and use the internal amps for the remaining 9 channels. It uses either the Front, Height 2 or Surround Back pre-outs for this. You will not have amps left for the bar. It does however also have pre-outs for Zone 2 and Zone 3, so a second amplifier could be connected to the Zone 2 pre-out to drive the bar speakers. That's just one scenario. You could also go to a 7.2.2 or 5.2.4 setup, use one set of pre-outs to drive the main speakers on a separate amp and assign one of the Height channel amp pairs for Zone 2 for the bar area.

Put some thought into the bar area. You could run 6 speakers off of a stereo amp but they must be wired properly so that the impedance per channel falls in the 6 to 16 ohm range. You could also get a 3 channel amp and wire each pair of speakers in series per channel and feed it a mono signal. Do you need stereo pairs?

If everttT is right about the impedance of the front speakers, a separate amp is probably a wise idea, especially when faced with using all of the internal amps in the AVR. You'll need to think about how loud you expect to play movies. If playing at reference levels, low impedance speakers will be hard on the AVR. Another thing to keep in mind though is that using a 3-channel amp for the fronts can mean loosing one channel of amplification in the AVR, because the center channel requires only one amp but the other speakers all come in pairs, so you can't use the center channel pre-out and then connect a pair of surrounds or effects speakers instead unless you go for an Auro3D setup that can use a single top speaker.

So there are many options available and adding 6 Zone 2 speakers complicates matters. Careful planning is required for this setup.

 

[TLS Guy]

In general, yes, but it varies by manufacturer so you need to carefully read the manuals for the models you are considering. For example, I just purchased the X4800H. It has 9 channels of amplification. A 7.2.4 setup requires 11 channels just for the theatre zone (not the bar area). With the X4800H you can assign two of the pre-amp outs to two channels connected to a separate stereo amp and use the internal amps for the remaining 9 channels. It uses either the Front, Height 2 or Surround Back pre-outs for this. You will not have amps left for the bar. It does however also have pre-outs for Zone 2 and Zone 3, so a second amplifier could be connected to the Zone 2 pre-out to drive the bar speakers. That's just one scenario. You could also go to a 7.2.2 or 5.2.4 setup, use one set of pre-outs to drive the main speakers on a separate amp and assign one of the Height channel amp pairs for Zone 2 for the bar area.

Put some thought into the bar area. You could run 6 speakers off of a stereo amp but they must be wired properly so that the impedance per channel falls in the 6 to 16 ohm range. You could also get a 3 channel amp and wire each pair of speakers in series per channel and feed it a mono signal. Do you need stereo pairs?

If everttT is right about the impedance of the front speakers, a separate amp is probably a wise idea, especially when faced with using all of the internal amps in the AVR. You'll need to think about how loud you expect to play movies. If playing at reference levels, low impedance speakers will be hard on the AVR. Another thing to keep in mind though is that using a 3-channel amp for the fronts can mean loosing one channel of amplification in the AVR, because the center channel requires only one amp but the other speakers all come in pairs, so you can't use the center channel pre-out and then connect a pair of surrounds or effects speakers instead unless you go for an Auro3D setup that can use a single top speaker.

So there are many options available and adding 6 Zone 2 speakers complicates matters. Careful planning is required for this setup.

This sort of thing is a pervasive problem. Clearly the design of those 1WLCR 6 speakers is abysmal. There is absolutely no excuse for it. They won't only blow up receivers, but some pretty robust amps also. The phase angle is a -75 degrees where the impedance is low. When you factor in the impedance and adjust it for phase angle at 100 Hz the impedance is equivalent to 1 ohm. That is close to a short circuit, making those speakers an absolute amp killer. Then there is clearly a honking great box resonance just above 200 Hz. To top it off, the FR is not something you would want to listen to. This sort of thing is a disgrace and there is absolutely no excuse for it.

This is not rocket science. Those speakers are clearly far below the standard of my in wall speakers in our great room, in every aspect you need to measure. My in wall system is very pleasant to listen to, even for long periods. I would imagine those Focals, are close to torture. What a disgrace.

 

[Sujain14]

Thanks for detail update
Now since I have those speakers there is no way i can return. So question if anything I can do to work those kinks

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for detail update
Now since I have those speakers there is no way i can return. So question if anything I can do to work those kinks

None. I have to give it to you straight, you bought junk and its Focal's fault. There is far too much of this. The only way it could possibly be solved would be with a complete redesign and build of the crossovers.

 

[Sujain14]

Well thanks for your update. I will abreast you with the process. I am sure somebody in this big group can have some constructive suggestion. By the way which speakers you have in wall

 

[TLS Guy]

Well thanks for your update. I will abreast you with the process. I am sure somebody in this big group can have some constructive suggestion. By the way which speakers you have in wall

I designed them at my wife's request. I don't buy speakers, just drivers and crossover parts.

The sub is in wall also.

This is the FR of a left/right speaker.

Axis

Off axis responses.

There is a bit of a bounce from the wall below 100 Hz, so I cross them to the sub at 120 Hz, which gives a good even response.

This is the impedance curve and phase angles.

There is a minimum impedance just below 4 ohms at 200 Hz, but the phase angle is close to zero. So the speakers are well within the capabilities of the Quad 909 amps that drive the rig, and they barely get warm event at power.

Anyhow it is good enough for my wife, who loves the rig.

The trouble with that Focal design is probably that it was designed by committee.

 

[Eppie]

Well thanks for your update. I will abreast you with the process. I am sure somebody in this big group can have some constructive suggestion. By the way which speakers you have in wall

TLS Guy has a wealth of experience and is a trusted advisor on this site but if you can't return the speakers then you still need options. If the impedance dips that low, then you can use the speakers only at nominal volume on an AVR and an external amp is highly recommended. You mentioned the Anthem 325 and that amp is rated down to 2 ohms and should be able to handle those speakers. At minimum you need an amp rated down to 4 ohms but a 2 ohm rating will provide a little assurance.

It's likely the other speakers have a low impedance at certain frequencies as well but it's hard to find measurements for in-walls and in-ceiling speakers. This may be a situation where you do not want to use all of the amps in the AVR. Use an external amp for 5 channels and use the AVR for the other channels and the Zone 2 (bar area). Having some unused amps in the AVR will leave you a little more head room for when the amps need to draw a lot of current from the common power supply.

Monolith makes a 5x 200W amp that is good value for the money. It's rated down to 4 ohms, so not as robust at very low impedances as the Anthem. The Parasound Halo A51 is rated down to 4 ohms and that should be a very robust amp, but it's 4 times the price of the Monolith.

 

[Verdinut]

TLS Guy has a wealth of experience and is a trusted advisor on this site but if you can't return the speakers then you still need options. If the impedance dips that low, then you can use the speakers only at nominal volume on an AVR and an external amp is highly recommended. You mentioned the Anthem 325 and that amp is rated down to 2 ohms and should be able to handle those speakers. At minimum you need an amp rated down to 4 ohms but a 2 ohm rating will provide a little assurance.

It's likely the other speakers have a low impedance at certain frequencies as well but it's hard to find measurements for in-walls and in-ceiling speakers. This may be a situation where you do not want to use all of the amps in the AVR. Use an external amp for 5 channels and use the AVR for the other channels and the Zone 2 (bar area). Having some unused amps in the AVR will leave you a little more head room for when the amps need to draw a lot of current from the common power supply.

Monolith makes a 5x 200W amp that is good value for the money. It's rated down to 4 ohms, so not as robust at very low impedances as the Anthem. The Parasound Halo A51 is rated down to 4 ohms and that should be a very robust amp, but it's 4 times the price of the Monolith.

No amp rated down to 4 ohms will do with those Focal speakers. The OP would need solid pro audio power amps to drive them. The QSC DCA series of power amps should be able to drive them. However, should he be interested in buying one, I suggest that he contact QSC to make sure that their amp will drive it. He wouldn't be able to blow one but it might go into protection mode though.

If the HT is not to be used for dynamic action films, and music is not to be played at very loud levels, the OP might be able to get away without having to purchase a second amp to drive the center channel.

DCA 1222

Crystal-clear, breathtaking, seat-shaking cinema sound is here with the DCA 1222 Digital Cinema Amplifier by QSC

www.qsys.com

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy has a wealth of experience and is a trusted advisor on this site but if you can't return the speakers then you still need options. If the impedance dips that low, then you can use the speakers only at nominal volume on an AVR and an external amp is highly recommended. You mentioned the Anthem 325 and that amp is rated down to 2 ohms and should be able to handle those speakers. At minimum you need an amp rated down to 4 ohms but a 2 ohm rating will provide a little assurance.

It's likely the other speakers have a low impedance at certain frequencies as well but it's hard to find measurements for in-walls and in-ceiling speakers. This may be a situation where you do not want to use all of the amps in the AVR. Use an external amp for 5 channels and use the AVR for the other channels and the Zone 2 (bar area). Having some unused amps in the AVR will leave you a little more head room for when the amps need to draw a lot of current from the common power supply.

Monolith makes a 5x 200W amp that is good value for the money. It's rated down to 4 ohms, so not as robust at very low impedances as the Anthem. The Parasound Halo A51 is rated down to 4 ohms and that should be a very robust amp, but it's 4 times the price of the Monolith.

The problem is that this is a particularly egregious case.

Just look at what is happening. I would bet that at 100 Hz that the load seen by the amp is significantly below the DC resistances of the VCs. When you see that it is absolute evidence of a crossover in resonance. That will bust the toughest and most stable of amps. The OP should measure the DC resistance at the terminals of those speakers, and I bet it will be higher than what is noted at 100 Hz. Those are not speakers I would ever connect to any amp I cared for. If it is then he has absolute right of return, having been sold a hazardous and essentially a product to fit for purpose. This is a really egregious case.

 

[Madhuski]

here’s Erin’s review

 

[TLS Guy]

here’s Erin’s review

Yes, those Focal in walls are nothing short of a disgrace. There is absolutely NO excuse for designing, building and marketing a speaker like that in this day and age. We just have so many tools and measurement techniques you can only conclude that speaker was cobbled together and thrown at the marketing department. Possibly the marketers had an overarching hand in the whole debacle. It is even a larger disgrace when you consider the cost.
I note that resonance at 200 Hz you can see in the impedance curve is easily audible to Eric. I bet that speaker Honks as loud as a goose.

 

[Sujain14]

Guys I get the point that they are useless speakers but I am trying to understand if these issues are so predominant the installer I know have installed in last 50 home theaters including house of a famous musician. And i have even seen these speakers installed in a demo home theater

 

[TLS Guy]

Guys I get the point that they are useless speakers but I am trying to understand if these issues are so predominant the installer I know have installed in last 50 home theaters including house of a famous musician. And i have even seen these speakers installed in a demo home theater

There are always some who will accept any sound you throw at them, especially if it is loud.

There are flaws however in those speakers, I would not tolerate. First they have a frequency response that will be brash, along with a honk and tubby bass, which I can't abide. Some might tolerate it.
Clearly the data shows a nasty resonance around 200, which an experienced reviewer can hear without difficulty. As someone experienced in these matters I am sure that is so.

The big issue for me though is the impedance curve and phase angles. These are going to seriously stress any amplifier and lead to major and costly reliability issues.
That would be make any design of mine that had those issues to be discarded. Absolutely no question about that.

So you have to do what you are happy with. All we can do is give you the benefit of our experience. However I stand by my comment that marketing a speaker at that price point that has those serious shortcomings is disgraceful. Nothing will change my opinion about that.

 

[isolar8001]

Erin has much more hair now since he did that review....

Real shame about these speakers....if they were 500 dollars, it would be "oh well".
At the suggested price, it's more like "what the hell??"

 

[Verdinut]

Erin has much more hair now since he did that review....

Real shame about these speakers....if they were 500 dollars, it would be "oh well".
At the suggested price, it's more like "what the hell??"

Focal doesn't give a damn much about impedance curves and the phase angles. They don't have competent loudspeaker designers nor engineers. But money and looks are the rulers. As I said that many years ago at an AV show in Montreal, it's name should be F*ckAll.

 

[Eppie]

Guys I get the point that they are useless speakers but I am trying to understand if these issues are so predominant the installer I know have installed in last 50 home theaters including house of a famous musician. And i have even seen these speakers installed in a demo home theater

There really are only three options.

• Put them up for sale, take the loss and move on. Get new speakers after doing some research.
• Get amplifiers rated down to 2 ohms for the fronts. The QSC amps mentioned are used in theatres and very robust at low impedances.
• Use whatever amps your installer has used and gamble that you don't have issues down the road.

I think you have all the information you need from the members. In the end it's your money and your call. Hopefully you'll end up with something that you can enjoy for years.

 

[Kingnoob]

The LCR6 dips below 3.5 ohms at 100hz, which would need a good amp if you're going to drive the system at moderate levels. Also, you're gonna want the ability to eq as the response from the mid-range to the tweeter is a steep rise.

Here are the Klippel measurements so you can see the details.

Focal 1000 IWLCR6 In-Wall Speaker Review

Focal 1000 IWLCR6 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Why do the best speakers require power amps? Isn’t focal a top brand .. I run Klipsch any amp can power them .

 

[everettT]

Why do the best speakers require power amps? Isn’t focal a top brand .. I run Klipsch any amp can power them .

Not all speakers are but most manufacturers recommend amps for marketing purposes.