The never ending rabbit hole....What Avr would you recommend for my setup? Marantz, Denon, Sony, Anthem, Yamaha, Integra, Emotiva or??????

[PENG]

I believe in my ears, and I know that amps, preamps, and dacs have a sound signature of their own regardless what anyone says.

Then you are all set, no point reading what others have to say about difference in sound quality between those AVRs right?

Even highly regarded PhDs such as Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole had stressed the importance of doing comparison listening in DBT. But then again, back to your belief, none of those opinions and/or findings could change you mind anyway, by the "sound" of it.

By the way, the Denon AVR-X4800H, Marantz C40 have the same parts in the audio signal path, came processors, dacs, volume ICs, opamps, power amps etc., just about the only difference is Denon still wouldn't use those silly HDAMs. In other parts of the world, the two have very similar list price, but in North America, people have to pay a lot more, $1000 more in some cases. So, if I were to choose, I would definitely go with the X4800H, but would take the C40 if I were in Europe such as Paris, or Singapore, because I like their look better, not the C50 though because of its limited info display.

Since you can hear a difference and think the Marantz has "better" sound (even though facts don't support that except in some specific scenario..), my suggestion is, go with the C40 even if you have to pay $1,000 more.

 

[PENG]

Yeah, people who make a decision based on the actual sound THEY hear AND THEY LIKE are horrible and should only go by what a manufacturer and spec sheet reads. If you're going to be a tool to people that don't have your views maybe you shouldn't reply to a post. I am sure I and the other guy you are being a tool to as well cant hear, hell don't even know why they make different receivers because they all sound the same just different companies but no noticeable difference in sound...

That's an interesting point you made about the "tool" thing. In that light, wouldn't it be also possible that you are being used as a tool by the marketing people of many audio device manufacturers.

 

[lewi1032]

Then you are all set, no point reading what others have to say right about difference in sound quality between those AVRs right?

Even highly regarded PhDs such as Dr. Olive and Dr. Toole had stressed the importance of doing comparison listening in DBT. But then again, back to your belief, none of those opinions and/or findings could change you mind anyway, by the "sound" of it.

By the way, the Denon AVR-X4800H, Marantz C40 have the same parts in the audio signal path, came processors, dacs, volume ICs, opamps, power amps etc., just about the only difference is Denon still wouldn't use those silly HDAMs. In other parts of the world, the two have very similar list price, but in North America, people have to pay a lot more, $1000 more in some cases. So, if I were to choos, I would definitely go with the X4800H, but would take the C40 if I were in Europe such as Paris, or Singapore, because I like their look better, not the C50 though because of its limited info display.

Since you can hear a difference and think the Marantz has "better" sound (even though facts don't support that except in some specific scenario..), my suggestion is, go with the C40 even if you have to pay $1,000 more.

I didnt say I had a AVR-X4800H, I said I had a AVR-X4700H so you might want to go back and read my post again. I said the Marantz c40 sounded better than the AV—x4700H in my setup after setting both of them up with their respected room correction. I would get the C40 over the x48000 because I can get it for $600 difference, the silver gold and the aesthetics look much nicer and the marantz will hold its value a little better overall.

 

[PENG]

I didnt say I had a AVR-X4800H, I said I had a AVR-X4700H so you might want to go back and read my post again. I said the Marantz c40 sounded better than the AV—x4700H in my setup after setting both of them up with their respected room correction. I would get the C40 over the x48000 because I can get it for $600 difference, the silver gold and the aesthetics look much nicer and the marantz will hold its value a little better overall. I also said that i believe in listening to

Yes MY THREAD!! I started the THREAD and I didnt say FORUM I said THREAD. Hence my username at the top of it because it’s MY THREAD. Just like anything else if you don’t like it then you can move to another one. Now I see why some of the people in other forums were saying such negative things about this one. Carry on now…

I don't need to read you post again because I know you had the 4700, I brought up the 4800 because you said you replaced it with the C50 in your opening post. I hope you remember that...

I brought up the 4800 because you seem interested in the C40, so I thought you might want to consider the 4800 as well, for reasons I mentioned. If not, then I would say the C40 seems like a good choice for you.

 

[lewi1032]

From your OP on, I felt you had been subjected to information overload and it has caused what amounts to a lot of OCD.

"A/B tested "hundreds of combinations?" Seriously? Is that just an exaggeration to make a point, along the lines of claims such as: "I have said it a million times?" I mean, by that standard, who are you going to find anywhere that has that much experience comparatively in which to ask such questions on what equipment to buy? To the contrary, I find equipment I like rather easily and keep it for decades, usually until it dies.

I have 9 pairs of speakers, 7 of which are favorites, and none of those that are appreciably removed from their sonic signatures, regardless of amp type and I have some pretty far out stuff covering most of the spectrum from: Class A, valve, Class D, vintage, DIY, hybrid etc. . .

I don't understand with all of that testing and comparing (why for starters), and then how could you have not landed on a winning combination by now? The only explanation is that you have instead, tried too much, and need a personal master reset and to walk away from any system for awhile and let your ears dry out a little.

What all you described in the first few posts on this thread does not sound the least bit enjoyable, productive or solvable to me. It's as if you are only interested in the newness aspect of perpetual purchases and shopping, instead of actually ever finding sonic satisfaction, long term.

I appreciate your perspective and can understand how my initial post might have conveyed a sense of information overload or obsession. However, my comments were not intended as exaggerations but to underscore the depth of my engagement with audio equipment.

When I say I've A/B tested "hundreds of combinations", it's not an overstatement. In fact, having just reviewed my archives, it's likely been quite a bit more. As a hobbyist electronics technician, I often have around 30 units awaiting repair or restoration on my bench. This passion for helping others, coupled with the joy of bringing their beloved equipment back to life, affords me a unique opportunity to listen to and test a wide variety of components.

I am fortunate enough to have experienced a wealth of audio components from both vintage to modern units. I can back this up with videos, pictures, and thousands of downloaded schematics. While you may not find the process of helping others, repairing/restoring equipment, and exploring the nuances of different components enjoyable, productive, or solvable, I find it immensely satisfying.

As for your question regarding why I've not yet settled on a winning combination - I actually have. I have three setups that I absolutely adore, and anyone who has seen or listened to them would likely agree. This post, however, was not about my 2-channel listening setups but my AVR and home theater system.

You mentioned your collection of 9 pairs of speakers and experience with a diverse range of audio classes. It's great that you've found a setup you're happy with, but it's also worth noting that our desire to experiment and explore is a shared trait. If not, why have nine pairs of speakers or experience with Class A, Valve, Class D, vintage, DIY, hybrid, etc.?

I've noticed that other forums have mentioned this one is plagued with negativity, but I choose not to let that affect my enjoyment of this hobby and helping others. Instead, I will continue to celebrate my love for audio equipment, each embarking on our own unique journey.. We can learn a lot from each other's experiences without judgment or criticism, even with people like you in existence.Have a great weekend!

 

[Trell]

I appreciate your perspective and can understand how my initial post might have conveyed a sense of information overload or obsession. However, my comments were not intended as exaggerations but to underscore the depth of my engagement with audio equipment.

When I say I've A/B tested "hundreds of combinations", it's not an overstatement. In fact, having just reviewed my archives, it's likely been quite a bit more. As a hobbyist electronics technician, I often have around 30 units awaiting repair or restoration on my bench. This passion for helping others, coupled with the joy of bringing their beloved equipment back to life, affords me a unique opportunity to listen to and test a wide variety of components.

I am fortunate enough to have experienced a wealth of audio components from both vintage to modern units. I can back this up with videos, pictures, and thousands of downloaded schematics. While you may not find the process of helping others, repairing/restoring equipment, and exploring the nuances of different components enjoyable, productive, or solvable, I find it immensely satisfying.

As for your question regarding why I've not yet settled on a winning combination - I actually have. I have three setups that I absolutely adore, and anyone who has seen or listened to them would likely agree. This post, however, was not about my 2-channel listening setups but my AVR and home theater system.

You mentioned your collection of 9 pairs of speakers and experience with a diverse range of audio classes. It's great that you've found a setup you're happy with, but it's also worth noting that our desire to experiment and explore is a shared trait. If not, why have nine pairs of speakers or experience with Class A, Valve, Class D, vintage, DIY, hybrid, etc.?

I've noticed that other forums have mentioned this one is plagued with negativity, but I choose not to let that affect my enjoyment of this hobby and helping others. Instead, I will continue to celebrate my love for audio equipment, each embarking on our own unique journey.. We can learn a lot from each other's experiences without judgment or criticism, even with people like you in existence.Have a great weekend!

But then you should be able to setup proper blind tests to verify your claims like that all DACs sounds different. As a “hobbyist electronics technician” that should be straightforward, I think.

 

[lewi1032]

I don't need to read you pist again because I know you had the 4700, I brought up the 4800 because you said you said your replaced it with the C50 in your opening post. I hope you remember that...

I brought up the 4800 because you seem interested in the C40, so I thought you might want to consider the 4800 as well, for reasons I mentioned. If not, then I would say the C40 seems like a good choice for you.

I know exactly what your last two responses are bringing up and why. It has nothing to do with audio but only the stink coming out of your words. I appreciate your wonderful insight and would appreciate it even more if you now go find another thread to contribute to, other than this one, as I have taken your wonderful opinions into consideration.

 

[lewi1032]

But then you should be able to setup proper blind tests to verify your claims like that all DACs sounds different. As a “hobbyist electronics technician” that should be straightforward, I think.

Never said that all DAC'S sound different. Over the years I’ve owned more than a dozen DACs from various manufacturers with many chips (Burr-Brown, ESS etc) I think the question is over-simplified and somewhat reductive. I have never heard of a ‘raw’ DAC chip. All have been part of larger components from NAD, Schiit, Gustard, Anthem, and others. Some of them sounded unique and distinct from the DACs in CD/DVD players, AV receivers, or tube amps they were connected to. There are good DACs and bad ones. The good ones accurately re-create the analog waveforms encoded in the digital input signal. The bad ones don’t. All the good ones, therefore, “sound” the same by definition, as they all produce the same analog signal from the same digital signal. The sonic difference in the good Dacs is usually due to "FILTERS" and not the actual dac chipset.

 

[Trell]

Never said that all DAC'S sound different. …

But you did claim so in post #6:

I believe in my ears, and I know that amps, preamps, and dacs have a sound signature of their own regardless what anyone says. …

Since you’ve the equipment and electronics experience you should be able to setup proper blind tests. Most people don’t even own a DMM to do level balancing, and as a“hobbyist electronics technician” I’m sure you’ve got other testing equipment and knowledge how to use it as well.

 

[isolar8001]

Don't let the dozens of YouTubers who review every new DAC that comes out every 2 days, know that the whole DAC market is the biggest load of snake oil since the great mythical cable quest.

Some of those clowns actually quit their real jobs to spread such nonsense. (Randy?)

 

[Trebdp83]

Wouldn’t recommend anything to anybody with the words “The never ending rabbit hole” in the title of their thread. You can usually count on post after post of never ending nonsense. If I did make a recommendation, it would be to look within. How can any sound system fix what is actually wrong between one’s ears?

I hope all stressing over the quality of sound in their systems find the components that they believe sound the best to them and then promptly shut the f#%k up and get offline. Reasonable people with reasonable questions might actually get reasonable answers and recommendations when those who might offer them aren’t busy chasing silly rabbits down holes.

 

[lewi1032]

Wouldn’t recommend anything to anybody with the words “The never ending rabbit hole” in the title of their thread. You can usually count on post after post of never ending nonsense. If I did make a recommendation, it would be to look within. How can any sound system fix what is actually wrong between one’s ears?

I hope all stressing over the quality of sound in their systems find the components that they believe sound the best to them and then promptly shut the f#%k up and get offline. Reasonable people with reasonable questions might actually get reasonable answers and recommendations when those who might offer them aren’t busy chasing silly rabbits down holes.

Well, Trebdp83, I'm thrilled to see that your crystal ball of audio wisdom is polished and shining bright today. Who knew the secret to navigating the labyrinth of audio components was to simply 'look within'? We've all been foolishly spending our time researching and discussing our shared passion.

We should probably be thanking you for finally sharing the secret – the problem is 'between our ears'. I can only imagine the utopia we'd live in if we could all just find our personal audio nirvana and 'promptly shut the f#%k up and get offline'. The internet would be a ghost town!

You're right. It would certainly save us all a lot of time discussing and debating our silly 'rabbit hole' hobby. But where would be the fun in that? So, while I appreciate your advice, I think I'll keep diving down the rabbit hole and discussing it with my fellow 'silly rabbits'. After all, someone needs to stay online and keep the internet running, right? In the famous quote of the greatest rabbit ever “And remember, 'mud' spelled backwards is 'dum'.” And “Ehhh, so long Screwy, see ya in St. Louie”

 

[Trebdp83]

Get help.

Passion And Obsession: When Does What You Love Become Excessive?

 

[lewi1032]

MayDay, MayDay.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I believe in my ears, and I know that amps, preamps, and dacs have a sound signature of their own regardless what anyone says. I have owned over 100 sets of speakers, probably close to that on amps and receivers. I have A/B tested many different combinations and no doubt they do have their own sound signature. I have some acoustic correction to my room now, i for sure believe in room correction like audyssey and dirac as it makes a huge difference once you get it dialed in but as i mentioned I didn't think the dirac was better on the little time i had to play with it before sending back the c50. Running audyssey vs not running it a half deaf person could tell the difference between the two. With that said
1.Very important
2.Warranty period is not that important after a couple of years
3.Not big on customer support as I have rarely needed it and I work on electronics for repairs, mostly audio as a hobby.
4.Wifi Network remote and network music streaming not so much as I have a EVERSOLO DMP-A6

If Room Correction is salient, then it would come down to any AVR or AVP with Dirac, Audyssey XT32, or ARC.

Can eliminate my FAVORITE brand Yamaha since YPAO probably not the best. I love Yamaha, but that's because I prefer NOT to use any kind of Room Correction.

Can also eliminate Sony.

But it can still be a difficult choice among the Marantz, Denon, Anthem.

 

[MrBoat]

I appreciate your perspective and can understand how my initial post might have conveyed a sense of information overload or obsession. However, my comments were not intended as exaggerations but to underscore the depth of my engagement with audio equipment.

When I say I've A/B tested "hundreds of combinations", it's not an overstatement. In fact, having just reviewed my archives, it's likely been quite a bit more. As a hobbyist electronics technician, I often have around 30 units awaiting repair or restoration on my bench. This passion for helping others, coupled with the joy of bringing their beloved equipment back to life, affords me a unique opportunity to listen to and test a wide variety of components.

I am fortunate enough to have experienced a wealth of audio components from both vintage to modern units. I can back this up with videos, pictures, and thousands of downloaded schematics. While you may not find the process of helping others, repairing/restoring equipment, and exploring the nuances of different components enjoyable, productive, or solvable, I find it immensely satisfying.

As for your question regarding why I've not yet settled on a winning combination - I actually have. I have three setups that I absolutely adore, and anyone who has seen or listened to them would likely agree. This post, however, was not about my 2-channel listening setups but my AVR and home theater system.

You mentioned your collection of 9 pairs of speakers and experience with a diverse range of audio classes. It's great that you've found a setup you're happy with, but it's also worth noting that our desire to experiment and explore is a shared trait. If not, why have nine pairs of speakers or experience with Class A, Valve, Class D, vintage, DIY, hybrid, etc.?

I've noticed that other forums have mentioned this one is plagued with negativity, but I choose not to let that affect my enjoyment of this hobby and helping others. Instead, I will continue to celebrate my love for audio equipment, each embarking on our own unique journey.. We can learn a lot from each other's experiences without judgment or criticism, even with people like you in existence.Have a great weekend!

I have a minor degree in electronics, work for a business that is owned by a 40 year EE of a major firm, and deal with electronics at work, frequently. I repair most of my equipment and build most of it anymore, as well. I have to listen to shop talk from the EE, for being just qualified enough to know what he is on about when he feels like venting about it.

In spite of my own obsession, and knowing well that's exactly what it is, I don't get wrapped around my own axle over it when looking for discussion, or help, is all.

As much as I already knew about speakers when I signed on here, I still queried this forum with regard to choosing a new DIY design. One of them picked a winner. The suggestion even came with an offer to buy what I had been suggested in the event I didn't like it. Rare to find a forum where posters will put their money where their mouth is. While I would never insist any member actually follow thru with such an offer, it was a respectable gesture that means the hangout here can't be all bad. Meanwhile, I have over 6 years of every day use with the same DIY pair.

While you very well may have listened to "hundreds of speakers," I typically spend hundreds or thousands of hours listening to the same favorite pairs, which is something I could not do, if subjected to listening to instead, hundreds of designs. Half the issue with me taking reviewers word, for that matter, on speaker performance now is, having come to the conclusion that their take is obviously cluttered, from what appears to be from listening to too many speakers and amps, and it shows.

Your post merely came across to me as someone who listens to too much gear, regardless of how you got there. I have actually avoided those reviewers and such, because it's too much information all the time and I have found it is difficult for them to turn it off. I really don't want to wreck what my #1 passion's end goal is, with information overload.

 

[lewi1032]

If Room Correction is salient, then it would come down to any AVR or AVP with Dirac, Audyssey XT32, or ARC.

Can eliminate my FAVORITE brand Yamaha since YPAO probably not the best. I love Yamaha, but that's because I prefer NOT to use any kind of Room Correction.

Can also eliminate Sony.

But it can still be a difficult choice among the Marantz, Denon, Anthem.

Thank you for your input my friend. I appreciate your honest and nonabrasive response as compared to others. I would love to hear your opinion on why you like yamaha and also why to eliminate sony.

Thanks

 

[lewi1032]

I have a minor degree in electronics, work for a business that is owned by a 40 year EE of a major firm, and deal with electronics at work, frequently. I repair most of my equipment and build most of it anymore, as well. I have to listen to shop talk from the EE, for being just qualified enough to know what he is on about when he feels like venting about it.

In spite of my own obsession, and knowing well that's exactly what it is, I don't get wrapped around my own axle over it when looking for discussion, or help, is all.

As much as I already knew about speakers when I signed on here, I still queried this forum with regard to choosing a new DIY design. One of them picked a winner. The suggestion even came with an offer to buy what I had been suggested in the event I didn't like it. Rare to find a forum where posters will put their money where their mouth is. While I would never insist any member actually follow thru with such an offer, it was a respectable gesture that means the hangout here can't be all bad. Meanwhile, I have over 6 years of every day use with the same DIY pair.

While you very well may have listened to "hundreds of speakers," I typically spend hundreds or thousands of hours listening to the same favorite pairs, which is something I could not do, if subjected to listening to instead, hundreds of designs. Half the issue with me taking reviewers word, for that matter, on speaker performance now is, having come to the conclusion that their take is obviously cluttered, from what appears to be from listening to too many speakers and amps, and it shows.

Your post merely came across to me as someone who listens to too much gear, regardless of how you got there. I have actually avoided those reviewers and such, because it's too much information all the time and I have found it is difficult for them to turn it off. I really don't want to wreck what my #1 passion's end goal is, with information overload.

As mentioned in my earlier posts I have 3 sets of what I feel as endgame setups FOR ME. Had I not listened and owned the ones I have throughout my lifetime I wouldn't have had the opportunity nor the resources to be lucky with such systems. This thread started to talk about my AVR/Home theater setup and not my 2 channel listening. There are many things that go into the choice of an AVR as it controls audio and video but that is neither here nor there.One of the 3 sets I have had for 12 years, listen to the most frequently and have not found any combination that I like personally better regardless of your statement about someone who listens to too much gear. I feel for those others out there that have been blessed to have to opportunity to listen to a wide variety of gear as they are just like me and don't know anything and cant give a valid opinion since they have listened to way to much gear for you. Great thing about opinions and discussions....To each is their own.

 

[TLS Guy]

We seem to have a late break out of midsummer madness.

These subjectivists essentially reuse to educate themselves in basic science and engineering principles. Rather they espouse what one can only call superstition. Not only that but they have a tendency to be "all mouth and trousers" in expressing their beliefs.

The tittle is apt. You can only go down a rabbit hole if you keep digging one.

There are numerous studies showing what issues are audible and which not. Peter Walker exploded all this nonsense years ago, when golden eared audiophools were blasting solid state amps and espousing the great benefits of tubes. Well he set up a controlled double blind study. Naughtily he included and amp he had added 2% THD.
Well the golden ears could not statistically pick out the tube amp from the transistor amp, nor the one with 2% THD! From then on he was arch enemy number one as far as the subjectivists were concerned.

When it comes to receivers there are limitations we have discussed before. As a group they are limited by inadequate power supplies, and also current delivery. The latter especially tends to apply to newer offerings.

This matters as the dynamic range of program I listen too anyway is wide. So you can run out of gas easily with receivers, especially if the connected speakers dip below four ohms in the major power band. We all know, most speakers are rated 8 ohms, but truthfully are usually four ohms in fact.

So I can see a discrepancy in receiver/speaker combinations, and listening level preferences. Unfortunately using appropriate power amps raises cost.
I do think that active speakers are the way forward and will close this gap. It certainly should be able to make AVPs significantly cheaper than AVRs, if the demand ratio were different.

 

[lewi1032]

We seem to have a late break out of midsummer madness.

These subjectivists essentially reuse to educate themselves in basic science and engineering principles. Rather they espouse what one can only call superstition. Not only that but they have a tendency to be "all mouth and trousers" in expressing their beliefs.

The tittle is apt. You can only go down a rabbit hole if you keep digging one.

There are numerous studies showing what issues are audible and which not. Peter Walker exploded all this nonsense years ago, when golden eared audiophools were blasting solid state amps and espousing the great benefits of tubes. Well he set up a controlled double blind study. Naughtily he included and amp he had added 2% THD.
Well the golden ears could not statistically pick out the tube amp from the transistor amp, nor the one with 2% THD! From then on he was arch enemy number one as far as the subjectivists were concerned.

When it comes to receivers there are limitations we have discussed before. As a group they are limited by inadequate power supplies, and also current delivery. The latter especially tends to apply to newer offerings.

This matters as the dynamic range of program I listen too anyway is wide. So you can run out of gas easily with receivers, especially if the connected speakers dip below four ohms in the major power band. We all know, most speakers are rated 8 ohms, but truthfully are usually four ohms in fact.

So I can see a discrepancy in receiver/speaker combinations, and listening level preferences. Unfortunately using appropriate power amps raises cost.
I do think that active speakers are the way forward and will close this gap. It certainly should be able to make AVPs significantly cheaper than AVRs, if the demand ratio were different.

Thanks for your perspective, It's always refreshing to meet someone who firmly stands by the science behind sound. But let's not forget that music and the enjoyment of audio isn't purely a science - it's also an art. So, while we should certainly understand and consider the basic principles of engineering and sound, we should also recognize and appreciate the subjective experience that comes with it. After all, we're human, not sound-measuring machines.

Your mention of Peter Walker's double-blind test is interesting, but it doesn't cover the entire scope of audio experience. There's an emotional resonance that we get from our music, our sound systems, that just can't be encapsulated in a double-blind test. There are additional factors not just of an amplifier itself.

I see your point about receivers and their limitations. But hey, not all of us are running concert halls. For many, a receiver can be a one-stop solution that meets their needs perfectly. And if we're really serious about squeezing every last drop of performance from our audio, well, there are a host of other variables to consider. As I mentioned with Avrs there are more factors to consider such as video, such as room correction and the fact I stated that it was a key factor in the sconic differences of the AVR. The fact that one would think that the many different room correction, filters, etc doesn’t make a difference in the sound is ludicrous but we want to try and dilute that statement with an A/B comparison solely on and amplified source. Do I agree if your using the same exact preamp, same exact speakers, same exact source, same exact placement and compare two different brand class d amplifiers could I tell the difference? No. But I can for sure tell the difference between a marantz 2325 and a sansui 9090d hooked to the same speakers and using the same source. I will bet you any dollar amount that you can come to my home and I can blind fold you and you can lick a clear winner from 3 different receivers using the same speakers, placement and source.

Active speakers and AVPs might be your holy grail, but one would still have to decide on the active speakers and the avp to favor in their needs and the needed room correction.

So, while your science-based approach is admirable, let's remember to keep room for the subjectivity, and personal preference that make this a hobby. And while we might agree on some things we might disagree on others.