The never ending rabbit hole....What Avr would you recommend for my setup? Marantz, Denon, Sony, Anthem, Yamaha, Integra, Emotiva or??????

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for your perspective, It's always refreshing to meet someone who firmly stands by the science behind sound. But let's not forget that music and the enjoyment of audio isn't purely a science - it's also an art. So, while we should certainly understand and consider the basic principles of engineering and sound, we should also recognize and appreciate the subjective experience that comes with it. After all, we're human, not sound-measuring machines.

Your mention of Peter Walker's double-blind test is interesting, but it doesn't cover the entire scope of audio experience. There's an emotional resonance that we get from our music, our sound systems, that just can't be encapsulated in a double-blind test. There are additional factors not just of an amplifier itself.

I see your point about receivers and their limitations. But hey, not all of us are running concert halls. For many, a receiver can be a one-stop solution that meets their needs perfectly. And if we're really serious about squeezing every last drop of performance from our audio, well, there are a host of other variables to consider. As I mentioned with Avrs there are more factors to consider such as video, such as room correction and the fact I stated that it was a key factor in the sconic differences of the AVR. The fact that one would think that the many different room correction, filters, etc doesn’t make a difference in the sound is ludicrous but we want to try and dilute that statement with an A/B comparison solely on and amplified source. Do I agree if your using the same exact preamp, same exact speakers, same exact source, same exact placement and compare two different brand class d amplifiers could I tell the difference? No. But I can for sure tell the difference between a marantz 2325 and a sansui 9090d hooked to the same speakers and using the same source. I will bet you any dollar amount that you can come to my home and I can blind fold you and you can lick a clear winner from 3 different receivers using the same speakers, placement and source.

Active speakers and AVPs might be your holy grail, but one would still have to decide on the active speakers and the avp to favor in their needs and the needed room correction.

So, while your science-based approach is admirable, let's remember to keep room for the subjectivity, and personal preference that make this a hobby. And while we might agree on some things we might disagree on others.

First of all, I do not use room correction. If you do then you add in all sorts of variables. In addition the speaker amp interface adds in a host of variables.

So to really engineer optimally you have design the whole package as an integrated project. The speaker amp interface is a bigger variable than most realize especially given the limitation of receivers. I design my own speakers, that are largely active in the HT room. I stick to the same amps, I have used for a long time. I could use others, but they are a known quantity to me. I am very much in favor of a total design approach. But I use known design, techniques and measurements. I seldom change equipment, and speakers very rarely. Once I am satisfied I leave well alone, and avoid your so called rabbit holes and don't dig any.

That way I can then enjoy the hard work and artistry of myriads of hard working musicians. I do the science and engineering so I can enjoy their artistry to the full. There is NO magic, just solid engineering, design and execution. In these days of multichannel audio, the equipment and room ideally become part and parcel of the project.

 

[lewi1032]

First of all, I do not use room correction. If you do then you add in all sorts of variables. In addition the speaker amp interface adds in a host of variables.

So to really engineer optimally you have design the whole package as an integrated project. The speaker amp interface is a bigger variable than most realize especially given the limitation of receivers. I design my own speakers, that are largely active in the HT room. I stick to the same amps, I have used for a long time. I could use others, but they are a known quantity to me. I am very much in favor of a total design approach. But I use known design, techniques and measurements. I seldom change equipment, and speakers very rarely. Once I am satisfied I leave well alone, and avoid your so called rabbit holes and don't dig any.

That way I can then enjoy the hard work and artistry of myriads of hard working musicians. I do the science and engineering so I can enjoy their artistry to the full. There is NO magic, just solid engineering, design and execution. In these days of multichannel audio, the equipment and room ideally become part and parcel of the project.

If you don't use room correction then hopefully you use sound treatment. Someone must have gifted you that $2000 Marantz DVD/SACD player, to go along with your $700 Bluray/sacd, and your $2500 Marantz av8003 because there is no way you would pay a premium like that based on the input from you and the others that were so fast to throw shame in this thread that one can't hear any audible difference between your higher-end components and much cheaper options. Not my words because I don't agree but yours and others

 

[lewi1032]

But you did claim so in post #6:



Since you’ve the equipment and electronics experience you should be able to setup proper blind tests. Most people don’t even own a DMM to do level balancing, and as a“hobbyist electronics technician” I’m sure you’ve got other testing equipment and knowledge how to use it as well.

I guess my electronic engineering degree doesn't mean anything either

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thank you for your input my friend. I appreciate your honest and nonabrasive response as compared to others. I would love to hear your opinion on why you like yamaha and also why to eliminate sony.

Thanks

In a way, I think Sony and Yamaha are kind of similar - neither one has great Room Correlation like Dirac, Audyssey, ARC.

Thus, for anyone who desires good room correction, I would eliminate both Yamaha and Sony.

Both Yamaha Avantage and Sony ES offer 5 YR Warranty on their AVR.

I love Yamaha for these reasons:
1. I think Yamaha may have the best reliability.
2. Best compatibility
3. Customer support and warranty
4. Definitely the best WiFi network remote app - MusicCast
5. Among the best network music streaming with MusicCast
6. I don’t use room correction. I believe people should try all room corrections if they are available. Doesn’t hurt. You can always turn them off. But I never preferred any room correction. So it doesn’t matter if Yamaha’s room correction isn’t very good.

 

[lewi1032]

In a way, I think Sony and Yamaha are kind of similar - neither one has great Room Correlation like Dirac, Audyssey, ARC.

Thus, for anyone who desires good room correction, I would eliminate both Yamaha and Sony.

Both Yamaha Avantage and Sony ES offer 5 YR Warranty on their AVR.

I love Yamaha for these reasons:
1. I think Yamaha may have the best reliability.
2. Best compatibility
3. Customer support and warranty
4. Definitely the best WiFi network remote app - MusicCast
5. Among the best network music streaming with MusicCast
6. I don’t use room correction. I believe people should try all room corrections if they are available. Doesn’t hurt. You can always turn them off. But I never preferred any room correction. So it doesn’t matter if Yamaha’s room correction is very good.

Thank you for your input my friend.

 

[Trell]

I guess my electronic engineering degree doesn't mean anything either

Now you’re deflecting, but you’ll continue to spout nonsense.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you don't use room correction then hopefully you use sound treatment. Someone must have gifted you that $2000 Marantz DVD/SACD player, to go along with your $700 Bluray/sacd, and your $2500 Marantz av8003 because there is no way you would pay a premium like that based on the input from you and the others that were so fast to throw shame in this thread that one can't hear any audible difference between your higher-end components and much cheaper options. Not my words because I don't agree but yours and others

I do use sound treatment but it is not obvious as it is architectural. Actually I use a Marantz 7705 in the HT room, and the speakers are my design and build. The room dimension ratios have been optimized. Since I do my own work and keep gear long term, it has not cost as much as you think.

I have units in the system going back 60 years. I actually have three systems, an in wall system in our great room, which my wife loves, and calls her system. It is 3.1. I have a 2.1 system in the family room, which is nice by the fire in the winter, the grandchildren like it and use it for gaming mostly. I do my best to avoid junk. All the speakers in the house are my design and build. The HTPC and DAW are in house builds, as is the power amp controller, and the active crossover are custom modified by me. So it is a blend of new and historic equipment.

The studio is 7.2.4 Atmos powered by 18 power amp channels. I am a bit of an audio hoarder. If it is any good I keep it. So I install it, rather than store it. Every time I check the price of the turntable equipment is seems to go up by about $1000.00 at least every time I check. There seems to be a vinyl craze at the moment for reasons I don't fully understand. The demand for the historic equipment I have seems to be at an all time high at the moment. So this vinyl craze seems to have an historic element to it. This is something I never expected. It is not just older buyers wanting these historic units but a much younger generation. I can not really fathom this. May be it is because the technology is obvious and intuitive unlike silver discs and steaming. I am not convinced anyone really understands this phenomenon.
I don't buy new vinyl, but have a huge legacy collection going back to when I was seven years old.

 

[lewi1032]

Now you’re deflecting, but you’ll continue to spout nonsense.

The last thing I do or have done in this forum is deflect. I just try and waste my time with petty people like you and go into all the equipment I have, test, etc. Funny how I have posted this in other forums and have had great conversations and opinions, but in here, with people like you this is what you continue to spout. The only thing you spout and can back up is condescending garbage. I am sure if I go into your garage, you have a workbench loaded with an Oscilloscope, Audio Signal Generator, Solder station,multimeter, voltage tester, signal generator, analyzer, power meter,a/v calibration tools, spectrum analyzer, TDR tools, etc along with 30 plus units that you repair/restore a month as well....

 

[lewi1032]

I do use sound treatment but it is not obvious as it is architectural. Actually I use a Marantz 7705 in the HT room, and the speakers are my design and build. The room dimension ratios have been optimized. Since I do my own work and keep gear long term, it has not cost as much as you think.

I have units in the system going back 60 years. I actually have three systems, an in wall system in our great room, which my wife loves, and calls her system. It is 3.1. I have a 2.1 system in the family room, which is nice by the fire in the winter, the grandchildren like it and use it for gaming mostly. I do my best to avoid junk. All the speakers in the house are my design and build. The HTPC and DAW are in house builds, as is the power amp controller, and the active crossover are custom modified by me. So it is a blend of new and historic equipment.

The studio is 7.2.4 Atmos powered by 18 power amp channels. I am a bit of an audio hoarder. If it is any good I keep it. So I install it, rather than store it. Every time I check the price of the turntable equipment is seems to go up by about $1000.00 at least every time I check. There seems to be a vinyl craze at the moment for reasons I don't fully understand. The demand for the historic equipment I have seems to be at an all time high at the moment. So this vinyl craze seems to have an historic element to it. This is something I never expected. It is not just older buyers wanting these historic units but a much younger generation. I can not really fathom this. May be it is because the technology is obvious and intuitive unlike silver discs and steaming. I am not convinced anyone really understands this phenomenon.
I don't buy new vinyl, but have a huge legacy collection going back to when I was seven years old.

I am digging the new interest in vinyl as I have quite a few vintage players that have 10x in value compared to what I have in them, especially my Pioneer and Marantz units. Thorens, Empire, Linn Sondek, etc have never been much of a bargin but great pieces that hold their value. In retro to get something modern of the same quality, some of the vintage items are still a bargain IMO.

 

[Trell]

The last thing I do or have done in this forum is deflect. I just try and waste my time with petty people like you and go into all the equipment I have, test, etc. Funny how I have posted this in other forums and have had great conversations and opinions, but in here, with people like you this is what you continue to spout. The only thing you spout and can back up is condescending garbage. I am sure if I go into your garage, you have a workbench loaded with an Oscilloscope, Audio Signal Generator, Solder station,multimeter, voltage tester, signal generator, analyzer, power meter,a/v calibration tools, spectrum analyzer, TDR tools, etc along with 30 plus units that you repair/restore as well....

And yet with all that claimed education and equipment you’re unable to setup a double blind test of DACs that you say sounds different. Great electronic engineering skills there.

 

[lewi1032]

And yet with all that claimed education and equipment you’re unable to setup a double blind test of DACs. Great electronic engineering skills there.

Thank you! There are hundreds of happy customers that agree with you, I appreciate that.

 

[TLS Guy]

The last thing I do or have done in this forum is deflect. I just try and waste my time with petty people like you and go into all the equipment I have, test, etc. Funny how I have posted this in other forums and have had great conversations and opinions, but in here, with people like you this is what you continue to spout. The only thing you spout and can back up is condescending garbage. I am sure if I go into your garage, you have a workbench loaded with an Oscilloscope, Audio Signal Generator, Solder station,multimeter, voltage tester, signal generator, analyzer, power meter,a/v calibration tools, spectrum analyzer, TDR tools, etc along with 30 plus units that you repair/restore as well....

I plead guilty to all of the above!

It plays 78s as well.

 

[lewi1032]

You know, some of you really should be ashamed of yourselves. I have more messages in my inbox than in this thread, from people who are either afraid or simply unwilling to deal with your negative responses. They would rather privately message me than post in these threads. It is quite disturbing to see the way you all treat people. Personally, it doesn't affect me because I don't let ignorance or bullies get under my skin. I am aware of the good I do for others, and I am more than equipped to offer an intelligent opinion based on real-world factors. However, it's a shame that some genuinely good people are either being driven away or silenced by your behavior. God bless you

 

[TLS Guy]

That really was a sad case of Audiophilia Nervosa. That was a classic illustration of how to not choose audio equipment and build a good satisfying system.

He claims to have had a huge amount of gear pass through his hands including a hundred pairs of speakers! Yet, he claims to now be overwhelmed trying to choose a receiver!

With all those equipment changes he could by now be the owner of one of the finest audio systems on the planet, I would have thought. Changing audio equipment like your shirt must be enormously costly and wasteful.

I think the superficial audio press has a lot of responsibility here. An opinion on the worth of piece of audio equipment without data to back it up is harmful. It gets people to believe anything based on just an opinion from the back of some twot's neck. This was really brought home to me recently with a post selling hugely expensive tube amp. Their schtick was that it lacked negative feedback and therefore achieved audio nirvana. Well Stereophile had actually measured this amp, and it was atrocious.
Yet the subjective audio press had given it rave reviews. The fact is that it gave pre 1949 performance. That year the Williamson amp with negative feedback appeared in what has come to be regarded as the first Hi-Fi power amp at 15 watts.

You can see that a portion of the output is fed back to the input triode. This was the starting gun to the Hi-Fi era.

Now in this subjectivist age some loonies can undo 75 years or so of progress, posing as knowledgeable experts.

This is a problem and this fight has to be fought. Silence is not an option.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

At the end of the day, it’s just about enjoyment. It’s not a competition or a test. Probably not about what’s right or wrong. Life is too short, enjoy.

As I’ve already said in my first post, there are basically 2 different camps on this view of amps/preamps/DAC having their own sound signatures or not. If we don’t agree, then we can agree to disagree and still have a good time. That’s why we all have different systems.

 

[PENG]

At the end of the day, it’s just about enjoyment. It’s not a competition or a test. Probably not about what’s right or wrong. Life is too short, enjoy.

As I’ve already said in my first post, there are basically 2 different camps on this view of amps/preamps/DAC having their own sound signatures or not. If we don’t agree, then we can agree to disagree and still have a good time. That’s why we all have different systems.

If someone gives an opinion, that's great. It is when people stated such opinions as though they were facts, or making claims that clearly defy logic, then, to borrow TSLG's "Silence is not an option ". That seems a little extreme for me, and I often took the silence option. More often, I would just say a few things that I felt may help others not be misled and moved on when things turned too negative to respond further.

 

[Trell]

If someone gives an opinion, that's great. It is when people stated such opinions as though they were facts, or making claims that clearly defy logic, then, to borrow TSLG's "Silence is not an option ". That seems a little extreme for me, and I often took the silence option. More often, I would just say a few things that I felt may help others not be misled and moved on when things turned too negative to respond further.

It's similar to the very long COVID thread where a number of members (new as well as old) made blatantly false anti-vax posts, repeatedly. There as well "Silence is not an option".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If someone gives an opinion, that's great. It is when people stated such opinions as though they were facts, or making claims that clearly defy logic, then, to borrow TSLG's "Silence is not an option ". That seems a little extreme for me, and I often took the silence option. More often, I would just say a few things that I felt may help others not be misled and moved on when things turned too negative to respond further.

Yeah, everyone gives their opinion/speak their mind based on their experience. Others can decide.

No need to be confrontational or aggressive.

This is just a hobby for enjoyment. Now if it's about life and death or something ACTUALLY more important in life, then definitely please speak very loudly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's similar to the very long COVID thread where a number of members (new as well as old) made blatantly false anti-vax posts, repeatedly. There as well "Silence is not an option".

Now that is actually real life medical important stuff!

Please definitely speak up about that.

Well, I mean please speak up about EVERYTHING. That's what Audioholics forum is about - peacefully sharing our thoughts and experiences, although we may disagree on some things.

 

[Trell]

Now that is actually real life medical important stuff!

Please definitely speak up about that.

Well, I mean please speak up about EVERYTHING. That's what Audioholics forum is about - peacefully sharing our thoughts and experiences, although we may disagree on some things.

Yeah, audio is generally a harmless hobby but I won't call myself an audiophile because of the rampant ludicrous believes so many have and espouses with infallible conviction despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's a cancer to our hobby.

But as @PENG wrote above my issue is when those opinions are stated as facts, contrary to all scientific evidence.