Audioquest Midnight -- anyone know the actual awg?

[bh72]

The dude is just trolling.

I am not. You guys are convinced all cables are perfect (except completely wrong x-section area, got that). I am not convinced. Could be what I call "sounds slightly different", you call "irrelevant difference", fair enough.

 

[Swerd]

In scientific tests of all kinds of human perception, such as wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of what is being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and people, who are otherwise serious, persist in the belief that they are immune to the influence of such factors as price, size, brand name, etc.

If you want to convince us – or anyone – that different loud speaker cables create different listening experiences (when all other audio gear is the same), it is essential to first demonstrate that listeners can reliably hear differences. In this thread, I don't see you mentioning that.

Listening tests must demonstrate that listeners can reliably hear differences when they do not know the identity of the cables – blind listening conditions. When you describe the various sounds you claim to hear, such as glassy sounding piano, can you hear them if another person switches cable while you are blind to the switch? Can others hear that, or only you? Again, I don't see you mentioning that.

All the various measurements of cable electrical & physical properties are irrelevant, unless they can be directly linked to the results of human listening tests, done with blinded listeners. Similarly, all the grand & glorious descriptions of the sounds you claim to hear when you are aware of what speaker cable you're using, are fantasies unless you can reproduce those results while you're listening under blinded conditions.

I could go on with other necessary features of how to do rigorous listening tests, that allow significant scientific conclusions, but I'll stop here. See this thread, especially post #10, for much more about that.

Objective testing of speaker wire? Does it exist?

Not a thread to start a debate, but discuss objective testing, more like lack there of. Being Audioholics, I suspect few are under the impression expensive wire/cables/power cords have any effects on the sound, but I digress: If you were to run a proper objective blind A/B listening test that...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[everettT]

"How do you go forward from fully transparent " --> I guess that is the happy zone we all want to have our system
tx for your interesting comments, I am not entirely convinced about Amir's measurements that do not involve my speakers nor my amp. So I rather trust my ears. Should I replace my very old AQ speaker cables I will consider Belden, a serious company and with v. good value / price ratio, definitely. But, for me, the final test (keep or return?) is not a measurement by Amir; the proof of the pudding is in the eating, i.e. whether I like my music more or less than with the AQ. And it could well be that I would not notice any difference at all.

Well, it seems the only way to change your mind would be a double blind ABX test to determine if you can "hear" those differences. Can't comment any further other then what already been presented.

 

[isolar8001]

I have a hunch that even in cables things have moved forward from the times before internet.

You should try those new Quantum displacement cables.
The signal enters a stable generated Wormhole upon leaving the source and reappears directly at the inputs of the device providing playback.
This not only negates any slowdown of the normal next-to-speed-of-light transfer, but eliminates any variances due to temperature and humidity.

 

[highfigh]

because cables are perfect components, right?

There's no such thing as a perfect component and nobody said cables are perfect components. This whole exercise is pointless if someone wants perfection- it doesn't exist. The point of the disagreement is that the signal voltage, impedance and all other parameters are dynamic, so being specific to nine places to the right of the decimal is unnecessary. Then, there's the fact that human hearing changes with atmospheric conditions, health, exposure to sounds before listening and other factors that can make us unable to hear what we think we should.

How many times have we seen and heard "I use my ears to adjust the sound- they're more sensitive than any test equipment"? That's a load of crap- not only are they not as sensitive as many believe, hearing acuity isn't consistent among all people.

Edit- I posted this without having seen your post that mentions using your ears. Hearing is one thing, listening is another. Any time someone knows that a component will be changed, some level of bias enters the situation.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Ears and humans are completely fallible. Subject to such things(as previously mentioned) like atmospheric pressure, sinus pressure, how many drinks you’ve had, changes in volume, blood pressure, emotional state and not the least of which is expectation bias. You want to hear, so you will. Measurement equipment doesn’t care, doesn’t behave differently because of any interactions it had earlier in the day.
Marketing=planting seeds of expectation. It’s unfortunate that THAT is what people are most sensitive to.

 

[j_garcia]

Expectation bias has a bigger effect than any pseudo science.

 

[TLS Guy]

because cables are perfect components, right?

Actually they are one of the few components that are perfect. A copper cable of adequate gauge will PERFECTLY transmit the signal from power amp to speakers.

Many of these high priced "funny wire" cables are actually suspect and some shown to actually be poor, which is quite an achievement. In my AV room I have a total of 650' of Belden 10 gauge speaker wire, and I do not need to fuss or worry about it. That feeds the power from 18 power amp channels to the speakers.

So either change subjects and start asking questions of consequence or get off this forum. So far your contributions have been negative and a distraction to helping people with problems in need of a solution. Let me be clear this is not a "funny wire" forum. So please contribute sensibly or join other loonies. There are plenty of "funny wire" forums, but we here will not be contaminated with snake oil BS.

 

[Teetertotter?]

I just got tired of all going back and forth. Just ignore for the time being and move on to what one believes or not. Happy speaker wire to all......

 

[bh72]

There's no such thing as a perfect component and nobody said cables are perfect components. This whole exercise is pointless if someone wants perfection- it doesn't exist. The point of the disagreement is that the signal voltage, impedance and all other parameters are dynamic, so being specific to nine places to the right of the decimal is unnecessary. Then, there's the fact that human hearing changes with atmospheric conditions, health, exposure to sounds before listening and other factors that can make us unable to hear what we think we should.

How many times have we seen and heard "I use my ears to adjust the sound- they're more sensitive than any test equipment"? That's a load of crap- not only are they not as sensitive as many believe, hearing acuity isn't consistent among all people.

Edit- I posted this without having seen your post that mentions using your ears. Hearing is one thing, listening is another. Any time someone knows that a component will be changed, some level of bias enters the situation.

I read many things here I agree with I'd add sleep or lack of as a main influencing factor on my own listening abilities.

your last paragraph, I agree again! I recently threw out a newly purchased AQ cable which I had hoped (bias alarm!) would remove a certain harshness I have attributed (again expectation bias!) to a cheap cable in the system. The AQ, though in some ways better, caused a not so subtle frequency imbalance (in my system) so the cheap one (3 bucks) is in again and the not so cheap AQ (80?) is out.
So, bias isn't necessarily something we are hopelessly dominated by, though certainly not free of.

 

[bh72]

Actually they are one of the few components that are perfect. A copper cable of adequate gauge will PERFECTLY transmit the signal from power amp to speakers.

Many of these high priced "funny wire" cables are actually suspect and some shown to actually be poor, which is quite an achievement. In my AV room I have a total of 650' of Belden 10 gauge speaker wire, and I do not need to fuss or worry about it. That feeds the power from 18 power amp channels to the speakers.

So either change subjects and start asking questions of consequence or get off this forum. So far your contributions have been negative and a distraction to helping people with problems in need of a solution. Let me be clear this is not a "funny wire" forum. So please contribute sensibly or join other loonies. There are plenty of "funny wire" forums, but we here will not be contaminated with snake oil BS.

I am impressed by the specs of your AV room. In no way I aim at hurting someone's feelings or anything like that and I do respect you and your opinion (though I might not share it if that is ok for you). I only objected when someone called said AQ Midnight+ sounding "dark" or being rubbish because it is of a certain brand. If you think that is essentially snake oil BS for you, so be it if this works for you. I rest my case. Good day.

 

[Trebdp83]

How does that old saying go, "You can lead a horse's ass to water, but you can't make him think?" I thought that's what I heard once but I wasn't really listening.

 

[bh72]

In scientific tests of all kinds of human perception, such as wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of what is being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and people, who are otherwise serious, persist in the belief that they are immune to the influence of such factors as price, size, brand name, etc.

If you want to convince us – or anyone – that different loud speaker cables create different listening experiences (when all other audio gear is the same), it is essential to first demonstrate that listeners can reliably hear differences. In this thread, I don't see you mentioning that.

Listening tests must demonstrate that listeners can reliably hear differences when they do not know the identity of the cables – blind listening conditions. When you describe the various sounds you claim to hear, such as glassy sounding piano, can you hear them if another person switches cable while you are blind to the switch? Can others hear that, or only you? Again, I don't see you mentioning that.

All the various measurements of cable electrical & physical properties are irrelevant, unless they can be directly linked to the results of human listening tests, done with blinded listeners. Similarly, all the grand & glorious descriptions of the sounds you claim to hear when you are aware of what speaker cable you're using, are fantasies unless you can reproduce those results while you're listening under blinded conditions.

I could go on with other necessary features of how to do rigorous listening tests, that allow significant scientific conclusions, but I'll stop here. See this thread, especially post #10, for much more about that.

Objective testing of speaker wire? Does it exist?

Not a thread to start a debate, but discuss objective testing, more like lack there of. Being Audioholics, I suspect few are under the impression expensive wire/cables/power cords have any effects on the sound, but I digress: If you were to run a proper objective blind A/B listening test that...

forums.audioholics.com

This is very interesting. Observations are my own only. I recognize the advantages large qualified blind listening panels might have. I thought if the original poster here in this thread is allowed to say - sans proof - the cable subject to this thread was "dark" I would be permitted to object. I was obviously mislead by my - apologies - fantasy that this is a place where opinions are shared, shared without first demonstrating that blind listeners are sensitive - and reliably so - to effects brought to discussion here. I appreciate you present methods to improve significance of observations, though. Thank you for that. Nevertheless I rest my case here, because the mere statement that an LS cable (a network of R, L, C and G!) might impose a sound signature of its own (mild or not), is quite self evident having tried a couple of different ones, and IMO in as much need of proof as saying 2 amps do not necessarily sound the same.
regards

 

[bh72]

Ears and humans are completely fallible. Subject to such things(as previously mentioned) like atmospheric pressure, sinus pressure, how many drinks you’ve had, changes in volume, blood pressure, emotional state and not the least of which is expectation bias. You want to hear, so you will. Measurement equipment doesn’t care, doesn’t behave differently because of any interactions it had earlier in the day.
Marketing=planting seeds of expectation. It’s unfortunate that THAT is what people are most sensitive to.

That is quite true. My amateur's/layman's approach is to stretch listening over longer time, and dial down expectations, i.e consciously allow for the possibility that the cheap thing is the better one. Not so easy though.
The problems with measurements: do we actually measure what we think we do, and can we actually justify the conclusions we make from them. The bias: if you have no theory about a device (and you assume it will not alter the input signal anyway) - what exactly do you measure at all?

 

[Verdinut]

This is very interesting. Observations are my own only. I recognize the advantages large qualified blind listening panels might have. I thought if the original poster here in this thread is allowed to say - sans proof - the cable subject to this thread was "dark" I would be permitted to object. I was obviously mislead by my - apologies - fantasy that this is a place where opinions are shared, shared without first demonstrating that blind listeners are sensitive - and reliably so - to effects brought to discussion here. I appreciate you present methods to improve significance of observations, though. Thank you for that. Nevertheless I rest my case here, because the mere statement that an LS cable (a network of R, L, C and G!) might impose a sound signature of its own (mild or not), is quite self evident having tried a couple of different ones, and IMO in as much need of proof as saying 2 amps do not necessarily sound the same.
regards

You hear differences between speaker cables. Good for you! But stop bugging us with your stupid remarks. If you want to continue discussing about differences between audio rendition of speaker cables, why don't you go to another website.

The question about speaker cables has already been very well debated on this site. We don't need any more discussion on it, period.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The problems with measurements: do we actually measure what we think we do, and can we actually justify the conclusions we make from them. The bias: if you have no theory about a device (and you assume it will not alter the input signal anyway) - what exactly do you measure at all?

If I follow your questions, I would say yes. We do measure what we think we do. Human hearing, and electronic science have been known quantities for a looong time.
Marketing will have you believe that there are things in magic cables that we can’t measure for. So then how exactly can they be manufactured to such strict standards and claims repeatedly? Science…..
To answer the second question. You measure all of the known things of consequence. EE is pretty mature.

 

[its phillip]

because cables are perfect components, right?

Make sure you bring your own high end power cables next time you get an MRI.

 

[ryanosaur]

Necro-thread, brought back to life after 6-1/2 yrs. Original post count was 12. Now up to 77!
-or- (...Can't decide which is most appropriate, here. *shrugs)

Sad that I lacked the forethought to include Thread-surrections in the AH Drinking Game.

But I did for cables!

Take a drink for any thread about Expensive Cables (costing more than standard fare from BJC).
Drink twice if the poster doubles down on the amazing SQ improvements they heard.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.

 

[Trell]

… Thread-surrections in the AH Drinking Game.

Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.

But I did for cables!

Just to lighten up your day.

Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.
Take a shot every time the Russel Cable article is linked.

 

[j_garcia]

Make sure you bring your own high end power cables next time you get an MRI.

And an anal probe. Maybe they will find your money.