Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[highfigh]

Sounds like industry kool-aid to me. Unlikely people are buying AR's with the single purpose of exterminating gopher prairies. I'm content with there's some silly to gun rights.

You wrote that there's no practical use, I presented one. Talk to someone who lives in an area that's overrun by invasive animals and you may understand how bad the problem is and that these are a good choice. I wasn't referring to Gophers, but they're one of the critters that cause problems. Look into the damage caused by feral pigs.

 

[highfigh]

What about "easily available" instead of "freely available"? Apparently, gun shows are one way for easy access to such weapons be people that never should own any gun in the first place.

WRT 'easily available'- that's a good description.

You need to find out that well-run gun shows aren't the free for all that you think they are. I'm sure some are held in rural places in barns, without any public knowledge, oversight by law enforcement or using applications for sales but if the sale is private, an application isn't required. That could change, but I don't see our Congress doing anything about it. You can say "Vote them out", but you also need to realize that if you want to make change via elections with your country's population, this would amount to a grassroots effort. With the lack of education and apathy here, it's all talk, no action.

I know of people in Middle America who gather for an annual event on a large property that has people bringing legally-owned fully automatic weapons, many are vintage and from the last 200 years. These weapons include Thompson sub machine guns, Browning Automatic Rifles (referred to as 'BAR'), etc. No crime sprees, nobody shoots anyone because of an argument, no guns are stolen from unlocked cars and no firearms are unsecured. Most of the people at these gatherings are former military and they just like to compare their guns, have a cookout and hang out with friends.

Locally, people may get together with guns, but if it'snot a real gun show, they're not legally in possession and they fire them for all kinds of reasons in populated areas. Like last night, when I heard a volley of 7-8 shots at about 8PM, likely fired less than half mile from my house. This is common and it's in Milwaukee, but my house is about 150 yards from the border, in the smaller city adjacent to Milwaukee.

 

[highfigh]

Anything large magazine strikes me as cops/military. I imagine though like the AR it was a matter of it's here to stay than it being a good idea to begin with.

More than 30 rounds on an AR is impractical- not only is it heavy, it becomes large and awkward. In a Glock, 30 round mags are seen in many news videos, sticking out from the bottom of the grip and some gang bangers have 100 round drum magazines. THOSE are two of the magazines that are already illegal without special permits and qualifications, but when stupid people don't secure their guns & ammo, dirtbags will get what they want. For the rest, there's always the black market.

 

[Dude#1279435]

You wrote that there's no practical use, I presented one. Talk to someone who lives in an area that's overrun by invasive animals and you may understand how bad the problem is and that these are a good choice. I wasn't referring to Gophers, but they're one of the critters that cause problems. Look into the damage caused by feral pigs.

Isn't that what a rifle is for? I tend to think an AR is for sport shooting.

 

[Trell]

Isn't that what a rifle is for? I tend to think an AR is for sport shooting.

An assault rifle is designed for war, just saying. For pest control (what, say, farmers may need) I'm sure there are other weapons available that probably are more suitable for the task at hand. Farmers elsewhere do manage without assault rifles.

 

[Dude#1279435]

An assault rifle is designed for war, just saying. For pest control (what, say, farmers may need) I'm sure there are other weapons available that probably are more suitable for the task at hand. Farmers elsewhere do manage without assault rifles.

I meant a regular hunting rifle for gophers, not an AR.

 

[highfigh]

Isn't that what a rifle is for? I tend to think an AR is for sport shooting.

Like a bolt action rifle?

Most AR owners think of them for sport shooting- it's a wack jobs who go off and cause problems.

It's a bit like Pit Bulls- people far & wide are deathly afraid of them, but as with any god I have met, the bad ones were the result of bad owners and bad training. Every Pit Bull I have met was friendly and wanted its head scratched, just like the other breeds I have met. I lived in a duplex and came home to find a Rottweiler in the back yard- never had any experience with that type, but my friends had Dobermans and I was comfortable with those, so I tried the same tactics to get it to let me into the house without mauling me. Turned out to be a very sweet dog.

Because the wack jobs cause the problems, this is the reason I don't understand wanting to go after the weapon, rather that the perpetrator. It's not as if AR-style rifles are laying on every table, next to every door and in every yard and even if they were, they wouldn't be used if everyone was able to control themselves. But they can't. People have problems that need treatment but one fact that stops this- if someone doesn't want treatment, they can't be forced to accept it unless they have been involuntarily committed.

 

[panteragstk]

Like a bolt action rifle?

Most AR owners think of them for sport shooting- it's a wack jobs who go off and cause problems.

It's a bit like Pit Bulls- people far & wide are deathly afraid of them, but as with any god I have met, the bad ones were the result of bad owners and bad training. Every Pit Bull I have met was friendly and wanted its head scratched, just like the other breeds I have met. I lived in a duplex and came home to find a Rottweiler in the back yard- never had any experience with that type, but my friends had Dobermans and I was comfortable with those, so I tried the same tactics to get it to let me into the house without mauling me. Turned out to be a very sweet dog.

Because the wack jobs cause the problems, this is the reason I don't understand wanting to go after the weapon, rather that the perpetrator. It's not as if AR-style rifles are laying on every table, next to every door and in every yard and even if they were, they wouldn't be used if everyone was able to control themselves. But they can't. People have problems that need treatment but one fact that stops this- if someone doesn't want treatment, they can't be forced to accept it unless they have been involuntarily committed.

I agree with everything you said and until I recently got two "free" puppies I had considered adopting a pit just to show people how sweet they are if you actually train them.

I have an AR. It's job is to shoot varmints. There are other guns that would work well too, but that's what I got. It has no other job.

At the same time, I do recognize that if there are crazy folks that will cause harm with or without a gun, I choose without. Too many recent shootings have been by people that got their guns legally. I get that people can 100% get the same, and much worse, on the black market, but considering most people wouldn't have a clue how to get something on the black market it's not as big of an issue. It is still a massive issue, but not as much as people that shouldn't be allowed to have an AR at all, getting one legally and quickly.

We have to take steps. I don't know what the first one should be, but there needs to be something. I 100% agree that people are the issue here, but if you take away their most convenient method of destruction, you've at least made it more difficult for them to cause harm.

 

[Trell]

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/19/europe/serbia-mass-shootings-gun-violence-protests-intl/index.html

>>>Two weeks after mass shootings shook their country, Serbians have surrendered more than 15,000 weapons, more than 2,500 explosive devices, and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition, as part of a month-long amnesty announced by the government.

Eighteen people were killed and 21 injured in May in two shootings in as many days. At the Vladislav Ribnikar elementary school in Belgrade, a 13-year-old boy opened fire on his classmates – allegedly using two of his father’s pistols – killing seven girls, a boy and a security guard. A 10-year-old girl injured in the attack died Monday, bringing the toll to 10.

The next day, a 21-year-old gunman wielding an automatic weapon killed eight people and injured 14 in the village of Dubona, south of the capital. Despite having one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world, mass shootings like this are extremely rare in Serbia. Many could scarcely comprehend the consecutive tragedies. “It’s never happened like this,” said Zvonimir Ivanovic, a professor at the University of Criminal Investigation and Police Studies in Belgrade.

In response to the attacks, President Aleksandr Vučić announced a raft of bold measures, aiming for no less than what he called the “almost total disarmament” of the country. [bold added]…<<<

 

[Trell]

 

[Dude#1279435]

Like a bolt action rifle?

Most AR owners think of them for sport shooting- it's a wack jobs who go off and cause problems.

It's a bit like Pit Bulls- people far & wide are deathly afraid of them, but as with any god I have met, the bad ones were the result of bad owners and bad training. Every Pit Bull I have met was friendly and wanted its head scratched, just like the other breeds I have met. I lived in a duplex and came home to find a Rottweiler in the back yard- never had any experience with that type, but my friends had Dobermans and I was comfortable with those, so I tried the same tactics to get it to let me into the house without mauling me. Turned out to be a very sweet dog.

Because the wack jobs cause the problems, this is the reason I don't understand wanting to go after the weapon, rather that the perpetrator. It's not as if AR-style rifles are laying on every table, next to every door and in every yard and even if they were, they wouldn't be used if everyone was able to control themselves. But they can't. People have problems that need treatment but one fact that stops this- if someone doesn't want treatment, they can't be forced to accept it unless they have been involuntarily committed.

I tend to think both. However, there's not really that much that can be done about it. People have a right to protect themselves, and some of the goofier parts is a by-product of guns. What strikes me as odd is gun owners defending every aspect of gun culture. I'd thought it was the more traditional rifles, shot guns, and six-shooter hand guns. Now you can load in a high mag. Ok, well than you have to accept with high mag comes higher death counts in shootings. Saying well it's only mental health is like hoping every single person out there can be fixed. It isn't realistic.

 

[highfigh]

I tend to think both. However, there's not really that much that can be done about it. People have a right to protect themselves, and some of the goofier parts is a by-product of guns. What strikes me as odd is gun owners defending every aspect of gun culture. I'd thought it was the more traditional rifles, shot guns, and six-shooter hand guns. Now you can load in a high mag. Ok, well than you have to accept with high mag comes higher death counts in shootings. Saying well it's only mental health is like hoping every single person out there can be fixed. It isn't realistic.

The only gun owners who defend every aspect of gun culture are the ones who have been asked in a way that allows public view of their opinions. The rest are in no way in favor of everyone getting guns, in any way- having access to guns isn't the only problem, people get them for bad reasons and since people are broken, they'll do bad things with them.

I never said it's ONLY mental health but I don't see how being a terrible, violent person can be described as 'normal' or 'sane'.

Let's look at it this way-

Someone finds/borrows/buys/steals a gun. What should they do with it?

What they do with it depends on them, as a person.

 

[cpp]

Isn't that what a rifle is for? I tend to think an AR is for sport shooting.

Well my time in the military, I really don't want to see or handle another AR. I cannot think of one thing this rifle is good for in the sport of hunting, unless you are hunting people or at some shooting event or you have some ego macho thing and want to impress.

 

[highfigh]

I agree with everything you said and until I recently got two "free" puppies I had considered adopting a pit just to show people how sweet they are if you actually train them.

I have an AR. It's job is to shoot varmints. There are other guns that would work well too, but that's what I got. It has no other job.

At the same time, I do recognize that if there are crazy folks that will cause harm with or without a gun, I choose without. Too many recent shootings have been by people that got their guns legally. I get that people can 100% get the same, and much worse, on the black market, but considering most people wouldn't have a clue how to get something on the black market it's not as big of an issue. It is still a massive issue, but not as much as people that shouldn't be allowed to have an AR at all, getting one legally and quickly.

We have to take steps. I don't know what the first one should be, but there needs to be something. I 100% agree that people are the issue here, but if you take away their most convenient method of destruction, you've at least made it more difficult for them to cause harm.

But the AR ISN'T the most convenient method! Or, were you referring to guns, in general? In 2020, more than 6500 pedestrians were killed by drivers- that's not far from 1/5 of the number of homicide victims and it doesn't include the number of car occupants who died because of reckless drivers. More than 35,000 die on the roads each year- now that road rage has reached its current level, even driving and shooting deaths can no longer be considered separate causes- MKE had at least three road rage shooting deaths in the last three weeks. One came from Georgia, for a funeral.

 

[highfigh]

Well my time in the military, I really don't want to see or handle another AR. I cannot think of one thing this rifle is good for in the sport of hunting, unless you are hunting people or at some shooting event or you have some ego macho thing and want to impress.

What Will It Take to Tackle America’s Feral Hog Problem? - Modern Farmer

There are differing views about what to do about wild pig populations, known for rooting up fields and disrupting farm ecosystems.

modernfarmer.com

 

[Dude#1279435]

But the AR ISN'T the most convenient method! Or, were you referring to guns, in general? In 2020, more than 6500 pedestrians were killed by drivers- that's not far from 1/5 of the number of homicide victims and it doesn't include the number of car occupants who died because of reckless drivers. More than 35,000 die on the roads each year- now that road rage has reached its current level, even driving and shooting deaths can no longer be considered separate causes- MKE had at least three road rage shooting deaths in the last three weeks. One came from Georgia, for a funeral.

I imagine justifying using AR's to use on feral animals means it would have to be the most practical weapon in that situation. In the name of gun ownership you have a right to using them, but if it isn't the most practical weapon of choice than what's the point? That's why I conclude shooting ferals has become sport. That's what I meant by goofy.

Also using car fatalities as a comparison is odd. Those are unintended deaths. Where as say school shootings are obviously intentional.

 

[Trell]

 

[cpp]

What Will It Take to Tackle America’s Feral Hog Problem? - Modern Farmer

There are differing views about what to do about wild pig populations, known for rooting up fields and disrupting farm ecosystems.

modernfarmer.com

Still, nothing that a single shot from a 30-30 can't handle unless it takes 30 shots from a AR15 for a poor shot. .

 

[cpp]

I imagine justifying using AR's to use on feral animals means it would have to be the most practical weapon in that situation. In the name of gun ownership you have a right to using them, but if it isn't the most practical weapon of choice than what's the point? That's why I conclude shooting ferals has become sport. That's what I meant by goofy.

Also using car fatalities as a comparison is odd. Those are unintended deaths. Where as say school shootings are obviously intentional.

Saw this show in TV last year. "HUNTERS" with AR's hunting hogs in TX from a Helicopter and they were dressed in camo. Comical at best. .

 

[Trell]

Saw this show in TV last year. "HUNTERS" with AR's hunting hogs in TX from a Helicopter and they were dressed in camo. Comical at best. .

Reminds of an incident in Sweden a couple of decades ago where where some CEOs where illegally shooting reindeer from a helicopter, and then just cut out the best parts of the dead animals and left the rest to rot. People where incensed, as I recall, especially hunters.