Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[Out-Of-Phase]

I think he is from Sweden.

 

[Danzilla31]

Dan, I see our little friend from Norway gave you a 'dumb' mark, congrats ! But then he gave one for me on a similar response. Perhaps if he lived here(thank God he doesn't) and actually knew LEO's and what they go through.............

Yeah I put him on my ignore list a long time ago. Ironically I don't have an issue with some of his feelings about gun control. The reason we have laws and restrictions on certain things like driving at a certain age and drinking at a certain age is because people have demonstrated that they are unable to handle the privilege to do so without those rules in place.

After the pandemic it's obvious that certain portions of our population with guns cannot responsibiy use this right and further restrictions may be necessary. In essence a few will spoil it for the many. So it's obvious that these changes have to be made

Where I tend to disagree with some of my brethren across the aisle is on this idea that a blanket type of restriction on guns in this country when they have built to the # we have is going to effective or safe if implemented incorrectly and too fast

And it's really not safe if implemented without the necessary changes in the areas of education mental health the economy and crime in this country

If those aren't addressed at the same time then this is just a good looking bandaid that really will accomplish nothing. It's a nightlight a pacifier a Blankie to help you sleep better at night from what scares you in the dark.

Especially until democrats stop this idiotic soft on crime approach that just encourages gateway behaviour that then encourages and promotes further behaviour which leads to escalation in behaviour that leads to terrible outcomes for everyone involved.

Show me they will uphold the law. And I'll be ready to listen

 

[highfigh]

This is what I see (not directed at you, @panteragstk): You find daily mass shootings using an assault rifle (designed to kill people) an acceptable price to pay for your hobby to carry weapons everywhere you want. You give your prayers while parents of a child can't identify their child because the head exploded when an AR-15 bullet entered it.

This is what so many you supports.

There's nothing acceptable about it- people seem to have lost the ability to consider what they're about to do, whether it's kill a bunch of innocent people or sell guns to a deranged a$$hole. It's not as if they accidentally bought a gun (or several) and I have to think some of the mass shooters act strangely while they're in the gun stores, unless they bought the guns privately and it would appear that those sellers don't give a rat's butt about how the guns will be used.

Let's insert a microchip in people who have been diagnosed with severe mental illness that leads to violence and if they can recover to the point where they no longer need treatment, the chip can be removed.

If killers who were deemed 'incompetent' at the time of their trials can be found 'competent' later, well, I'll leave it at that.

 

[wafflesstorm]

There's nothing acceptable about it- people seem to have lost the ability to consider what they're about to do, whether it's kill a bunch of innocent people or sell guns to a deranged a$$hole. It's not as if they accidentally bought a gun (or several) and I have to think some of the mass shooters act strangely while they're in the gun stores, unless they bought the guns privately and it would appear that those sellers don't give a rat's butt about how the guns will be used.

Let's insert a microchip in people who have been diagnosed with severe mental illness that leads to violence and if they can recover to the point where they no longer need treatment, the chip can be removed.

If killers who were deemed 'incompetent' at the time of their trials can be found 'competent' later, well, I'll leave it at that. In general, problems with gun control in our country have reached the scale when even schoolchildren and students write essays on this topic, here are gun control assignments examples that show the importance of this topic. Imagine yourself in the place of a child who has to write an essay on such a topic and hopes that some next psycho will not burst into school tomorrow. I think it's time to limit the sale of weapons, for example, completely ban the sale of automatic and semi-automatic weapons. But fans of the "culture of weapons" of course will not hear me.

I agree. The problem is not the AR-15 in the first place, but the idiot who uses it. The machine gun can be replaced with explosives or even with a kitchen knife, the killer will remain a killer in any case.

 

[highfigh]

I agree. The problem is not the AR-15 in the first place, but the idiot who uses it. The machine gun can be replaced with explosives or even with a kitchen knife, the killer will remain a killer in any case.

They don't need no stinkin' guns.....

Three arrested, four injured, 10 knives recovered in Milwaukee stabbing

The Milwaukee Police Department says all are expected to survive.

www.wisn.com

 

[Trell]

I agree. The problem is not the AR-15 in the first place, but the idiot who uses it. The machine gun can be replaced with explosives or even with a kitchen knife, the killer will remain a killer in any case.

With a kitchen knife people can run away from the attacker and there'll be far fewer deaths than with an assault rifle. The damages are likely to be far less as than from being hit by a bullet from assault rifle where the heads of children literally explodes when hit, as was in the case of one of US daily mass shootings.

In USA it's illegal to possess hand grenades or Claymore mines, and a number of other explosive devices as well. And unlike assault weapons that are much harder to get access to.

It really is a dumb argument to compare a knife with an assault rifle (or machine gun, for that matter). A clear indication of someone that should not have access to weapons on the grounds of not know what damages guns can do.

 

[Dude#1279435]

US got stupid when AR15s became attainable.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I imagine it's a bit more than 'guns are not the problem, people are'. I think also it's gun culture.

 

[highfigh]

With a kitchen knife people can run away from the attacker and there'll be far fewer deaths than with an assault rifle. The damages are likely to be far less as than from being hit by a bullet from assault rifle where the heads of children literally explodes when hit, as was in the case of one of US daily mass shootings.

In USA it's illegal to possess hand grenades or Claymore mines, and a number of other explosive devices as well. And unlike assault weapons that are much harder to get access to.

It really is a dumb argument to compare a knife with an assault rifle (or machine gun, for that matter). A clear indication of someone that should not have access to weapons on the grounds of not know what damages guns can do.

A Lot of people can't run away. Some can't even walk away. Easy targets. Because of my knee, I can't run away (or walk quickly), so if some pinhead comes after me with a weapon that isn't a gun, they have a good chance of doing some damage if I don't know they're coming. Anyone in a wheelchair or using crutches/walker is screwed.

Using exploding heads as the rationale is wrong and it's only used as a spectacular example but it won't stop anyone who might, from repeating these horrible incidents since most of them didn't get the rifles illegally and they hardly care that children's heads are exploding. I suspect they didn't care whose heads exploded, as long as it happened. They do tend to be whack jobs, though. THAT's where it needs to change and only Congress can change that.

The gun culture is making people do stupid things. The online videos make their gloom and doom claims, people believe them and then, someone goes off and kills a bunch of people because the gullible are on the edge, anyway. Aside from making AR-style rifles hard/impossible to acquire, how would you stop the shooting incident in New Mexico, which was called 'random' by the sheriff? I'm pretty sure that kid would have used ANY gun if an AR wasn't available, but I haven't see anything about his life, family, etc or how he was able to have the guns and the AR wasn't the only gun he had with him.

They were banned in the '90s, they can be banned again, but at this point, I don't think the statistics will show much difference now- the last time, mass shootings dropped, but it was only 25%. While significant, we have more people who are exhibiting mental illness skirting the system and in some cases, they're altering Glock pistols with a 'switch' that makes it full-auto and using extended 30 round or drum magazines. But the last example tends to be used by gangs and drug dealing groups.

We have too many f&cked up people in this country and many aren't getting the treatment they need. They also needed their families to get to know them better and do something when they saw signs of trouble. There are other factors, like the Cleveland, TX case, where the shooter had been deported four times and he came back again- now, five people are dead because one of them wanted him to stop shooting his AR-style rifle IN HIS FRONT YARD.

The NRA has legal/tax problems and the organization is nearly bankrupt and I believe it's the fault of their leader. They could have been a good advocate and might have prevented a lot of this, but they just acted as an agitator.

 

[Trell]

A Lot of people can't run away. Some can't even walk away. Easy targets. Because of my knee, I can't run away (or walk quickly), so if some pinhead comes after me with a weapon that isn't a gun, they have a good chance of doing some damage if I don't know they're coming. Anyone in a wheelchair or using crutches/walker is screwed.

Of course knives can cause many deaths, as seen in Europe, but in USA the freely available assault rifle is the choice for committing mass murder shooting on a daily basis.

Using exploding heads as the rationale is wrong and it's only used as a spectacular example but it won't stop anyone who might, from repeating these horrible incidents since most of them didn't get the rifles illegally and they hardly care that children's heads are exploding. I suspect they didn't care whose heads exploded, as long as it happened. They do tend to be whack jobs, though. THAT's where it needs to change and only Congress can change that.

Exploding children heads is what happened in a recent mass murder by an assault rifle, a weapon designed to kill people and otherwise cause maximal damage.

But some people wants to keep their assault rifles freely available to all, no matter how many children are murdered and living in perpetual fear of being killed at any moment.

The vast majority of Americans want gun safety laws, though.

 

[highfigh]

Of course knives can cause many deaths, as seen in Europe, but in USA the freely available assault rifle is the choice for committing mass murder shooting on a daily basis.



Exploding children heads is what happened in a recent mass murder by an assault rifle, a weapon designed to kill people and otherwise cause maximal damage.

But some people wants to keep their assault rifles freely available to all, no matter how many children are murdered and living in perpetual fear of being killed at any moment.

The vast majority of Americans want gun safety laws, though.

Where did you get the 'freely available' idea? People are turned down for the NICS application every day- the problem is that the application is too general and because of the HIPAA restrictions, people who are lucid enough to lie about their mental illness lie and are approved. Another path to an AR is through parts purchases- there's only one part on this gun that would require registration, the rest are available without restriction. Someone who has the contacts (criminal) can buy that part and nobody will know they have it just because the other parts were purchased- they can say "I'm waiting, to be able to afford it" and nobody can say a word.

You're right- some people want these to be easy to access. Screw them.

However, AR-style rifles aren't used in most mass shootings, they're just the hot button gun and when 'assault' is used, it makes them more scary. Far more handguns are used but the thing that concerns me and makes me want to leave the place where I have lived for my whole life is the a$$holes who have lost their GD minds and think that thug life, drugs/gangs and just being a shytehead is OK. Also, domestic violence is one of the main situations that "cause" someone to kill many people- getting people to seek help will save far more than banning AR-15s. People can't handle their personal problems and they just can't control themselves.

The type of gun used in most US homicides is not an AR-15

Handguns are responsible for nearly two-thirds of the nation’s gun murders.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Dude#1279435]

Where did you get the 'freely available' idea? People are turned down for the NICS application every day- the problem is that the application is too general and because of the HIPAA restrictions, people who are lucid enough to lie about their mental illness lie and are approved. Another path to an AR is through parts purchases- there's only one part on this gun that would require registration, the rest are available without restriction. Someone who has the contacts (criminal) can buy that part and nobody will know they have it just because the other parts were purchased- they can say "I'm waiting, to be able to afford it" and nobody can say a word.

You're right- some people want these to be easy to access. Screw them.

However, AR-style rifles aren't used in most mass shootings, they're just the hot button gun and when 'assault' is used, it makes them more scary. Far more handguns are used but the thing that concerns me and makes me want to leave the place where I have lived for my whole life is the a$$holes who have lost their GD minds and think that thug life, drugs/gangs and just being a shytehead is OK. Also, domestic violence is one of the main situations that "cause" someone to kill many people- getting people to seek help will save far more than banning AR-15s. People can't handle their personal problems and they just can't control themselves.

The type of gun used in most US homicides is not an AR-15

Handguns are responsible for nearly two-thirds of the nation’s gun murders.

abcnews.go.com

It doesn't really matter. Getting rid of ARs is a good thing.

 

[Dude#1279435]

There's more of a practical reason for the shotgun and hand gun. Hunting and self-defense. Of course what comes with it is the hand gun can be practical for other things. The AR15 there's no practical reason. It's a military weapon and wasn't meant for civilians. The only real argument is the sales made from them.

 

[highfigh]

It doesn't really matter. Getting rid of ARs is a good thing.

That may be, but more people are killed by reckless drivers and both (mass shooting and reckless driving) are done by choice. Another killer- DUI- from the NHTSA link, "Every day, about 37 people in the United States die in drunk-driving crashes".

Drunk Driving | NHTSA

Get resources on ways to prevent drunk driving and alcohol-impaired crashes along with national drunk driving statistics and facts.

www.nhtsa.gov

Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2023 | Statista

Handguns are by far the most common murder weapon used in the United States, accounting for 7,159 homicides in 2023.

www.statista.com

ARs are used in a very small number of shootings- why is that the one that makes people freak out when a pistol can just as easily "make children's heads explode"? The guy in New Mexico started with an AR, ran out of ammo and used pistols afterward but the shootings were called 'random'. He started shooting at home, then was shot in front of a church. Something tells me he was PO'd about life and was determined to make others pay for it. That's not normal.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to have guns, I'm saying that picking one weapon is the wrong way to end this BS but I'm not saying that guns need to be banned when it's damaged people who are causing this. If nothing is done about the people, the problem will continue and that includes the other examples I gave.

 

[highfigh]

There's more of a practical reason for the shotgun and hand gun. Hunting and self-defense. Of course what comes with it is the hand gun can be practical for other things. The AR15 there's no practical reason. It's a military weapon and wasn't meant for civilians. The only real argument is the sales made from them.

There is a practical use, but not in cities. These are used to eliminate feral animals in rural areas because of the damage caused to crops, herds and other areas.

Stop with the 'It's a military weapon"- it's not fully automatic. No firearm made for the civilian market is fully automatic and it's a damned good thing but with parts that make Glock pistols fully auto, it would be a good thing to go after Glock for making guns that can be so easily modified.

ARs can cause extremely brutal injuries, but they're not the only ones. A .22 can kill very effectively and splatter a room, but without making holes in the building. Let me know if you want the names of people I knew who used a .22.

 

[Dude#1279435]

There is a practical use, but not in cities. These are used to eliminate feral animals in rural areas because of the damage caused to crops, herds and other areas.

Stop with the 'It's a military weapon"- it's not fully automatic. No firearm made for the civilian market is fully automatic and it's a damned good thing but with parts that make Glock pistols fully auto, it would be a good thing to go after Glock for making guns that can be so easily modified.

ARs can cause extremely brutal injuries, but they're not the only ones. A .22 can kill very effectively and splatter a room, but without making holes in the building. Let me know if you want the names of people I knew who used a .22.

Then why have em if a hand gun or shot gun will work?

 

[highfigh]

Then why have em if a hand gun or shot gun will work?

For too many, as I have posted several times, it's an unhealthy obsession- too many want to play Army. It's a case of 'Just because you can, doesn't mean you should' when someone has wild emotional swings, PTSD, developmental disabilities, addictions, anger issues and can't control their impulses. But the US has such a stigma about mental illness that it's impossible to use treatment/calls as a way to prevent buying firearms, even with talk of red flag laws. The suicide stats alone show that this needs to change because guns are used for suicide is three times as frequently as homicide. I haven't seen 'Suicide by cop' included with the other suicides.

WRT your question- have you known anyone who shot themselves and they hadn't owned a gun before? It's not uncommon for them to fire ahead of the event and if that scares them enough, they'll pass it off as an accidental discharge. If you ever hear that someone bought a gun and accidentally shot through a wall, ceiling, floor, their car, etc- make sure they get help before they decide they can handle it- it may not happen soon, but there's a good chance that it will happen, eventually. Hearing about this after it happens is no treat.

 

[Trell]

Where did you get the 'freely available' idea? People are turned down for the NICS application every day- the problem is that the application is too general and because of the HIPAA restrictions, people who are lucid enough to lie about their mental illness lie and are approved. Another path to an AR is through parts purchases- there's only one part on this gun that would require registration, the rest are available without restriction. Someone who has the contacts (criminal) can buy that part and nobody will know they have it just because the other parts were purchased- they can say "I'm waiting, to be able to afford it" and nobody can say a word.

You're right- some people want these to be easy to access. Screw them.

What about "easily available" instead of "freely available"? Apparently, gun shows are one way for easy access to such weapons be people that never should own any gun in the first place.

 

[Dude#1279435]

Anything large magazine strikes me as cops/military. I imagine though like the AR it was a matter of it's here to stay than it being a good idea to begin with.

 

[Dude#1279435]

There is a practical use, but not in cities. These are used to eliminate feral animals in rural areas because of the damage caused to crops, herds and other areas.

Sounds like industry kool-aid to me. Unlikely people are buying AR's with the single purpose of exterminating gopher prairies. I'm content with there's some silly to gun rights.