Need settings help with Denon 4300H + X Box Series X for Sound

[bigbassdave]

Hi all,

I recently upgraded to separates in my main room, and moved my Denon 4300 into my kid's HT/Arcade room. He has a 7.2.4 setup.

When the Denon was in my main room, it would display Dolby Atmos only when an actual Atmos signal was being received from my Apple TV. For everything else, it would display Dolby Surround. This worked perfectly and the Atmos effects were awesome.

He plays and streams everything off his XBox Series X. The issue we have is that no matter what the source, the receiver displays Dolby Atmos. When I play songs from Apple Music that had incredible spatial affects in my main room, I'm not getting the same result. Everything sounds very heavily centered on the front soundstage.

When I adjust the individual speaker levels, I get sound from all 11.2

I'm sure I'm just not setting something correctly on either the receiver, Xbox, or both.

Any thoughts?

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, getting an actual Dolby Atmos signal from a bluray isn't the same thing as streaming apple music (which is just sort of a way of implementing Dolby Surround type upmix to 2ch content). If you alternately get Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround, sounds like you get the Dolby Surround when using other than an Atmos mix because of how you "trained" the avr to treat that codec (2.0 probably, maybe a 5.1 core).

 

[bigbassdave]

Well, getting an actual Dolby Atmos signal from a bluray isn't the same thing as streaming apple music (which is just sort of a way of implementing Dolby Surround type upmix to 2ch content). If you alternately get Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround, sounds like you get the Dolby Surround when using other than an Atmos mix because of how you "trained" the avr to treat that codec (2.0 probably, maybe a 5.1 core).

Thanks,

Apple music was just one example. Point is, I was getting Atmos with the Apple TV, but don’t seem to be getting it now with the Xbox though the receiver always displays “Dolby Atmos”’no matter what the content is.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks,

Apple music was just one example. Point is, I was getting Atmos with the Apple TV, but don’t seem to be getting it now with the Xbox though the receiver always displays “Dolby Atmos”’no matter what the content is.

My newer Denon avr also identifies much as more than say dolby 2.0 stereo, as Dolby Digital Plus (which is somewhat understandable) and suspect this "branding" bullshit goes into various modes. I don't like it.

 

[bigbassdave]

My newer Denon avr also identifies much as more than say dolby 2.0 stereo, as Dolby Digital Plus (which is somewhat understandable) and suspect this "branding" bullshit goes into various modes. I don't like it.

Have you checked out the spatial audio playlists on Apple Music? There’s some pretty impressive tracks in there…… when it’s being decoded properly anyway

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you checked out the spatial audio playlists on Apple Music? There’s some pretty impressive tracks in there…… when it’s being decoded properly anyway

Nah, not an applish person, tried apple music and it was just a horrible experience software wise. All the Atmos is on apple music generally is use of an upmixer, which you can largely replicate with using a Dolby Surround mode on modern receivers.

 

[bigbassdave]

Nah, not an applish person, tried apple music and it was just a horrible experience software wise. All the Atmos is on apple music generally is use of an upmixer, which you can largely replicate with using a Dolby Surround mode on modern receivers.

I like the app on TVOS and honestly, some of the songs in there have very impressive channel effects.

 

[lovinthehd]

I like the app on TVOS and honestly, some of the songs in there have very impressive channel effects.

Compared to just using the Dolby Surround upmixer on the same 2.0 channel original content? Dunno....but doubtful it makes a huge difference as they're both based on logarithms rather than actual mixes.

 

[Trebdp83]

Dolby Atmos from Apple Music is the same as from any streaming service and is lossy Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 based. Like movie tracks, they are mixed for Atmos though some I’m sure are remixed 5.1 tracks. You know, like some movies. Using Dolby Surround on two channel tracks will not be the same as an actual Dolby Atmos mix.

The issue with the XBOX Series X/S is that Microsoft does not bitstream Dolby Atmos. It, like the Apple TV 4K, uses Dolby MAT. BUT! You must download the Dolby app from the Microsoft store and the damn thing will up-mix any Dolby track in any game or app. Some receivers, like my Onkyo, will display the incoming signal as Dolby Surround because it has already been up-mixed and the receiver knows it. Some receivers will display the up-mixed signal as Atmos, but it isn’t really. So, like any 2.0 music track up-mixed with Dolby Surround in the receiver, it will be center centric without Center Spread ON in the receiver.

Microsoft’s handling of Dolby Atmos is an abomination. I use my XBOX Series S solely for gaming and use the Apple TV 4K for streaming movies and TV shows. Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music over HDMI are supported ONLY on the Apple TV 4K. The Apple Music app on any other non Apple device is 2.0. The XBOX Series X/S will up-mix it to Dolby Surround and it may display as Atmos on some receivers. This is why the tracks sound like s#%t compared to the actual Dolby Atmos tracks on the Apple TV 4K.

 

[bigbassdave]

Dolby Atmos from Apple Music is the same as from any streaming service and is lossy Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 based. Like movie tracks, they are mixed for Atmos though some I’m sure are remixed 5.1 tracks. You know, like some movies. Using Dolby Surround on two channel tracks will not be the same as an actual Dolby Atmos mix.

The issue with the XBOX Series X/S is that Microsoft does not bitstream Dolby Atmos. It, like the Apple TV 4K, uses Dolby MAT. BUT! You must download the Dolby app from the Microsoft store and the damn thing will up-mix any Dolby track in any game or app. Some receivers, like my Onkyo, will display the incoming signal as Dolby Surround because it has already been up-mixed and the receiver knows it. Some receivers will display the up-mixed signal as Atmos, but it isn’t really. So, like any 2.0 music track up-mixed with Dolby Surround in the receiver, it will be center centric without Center Spread ON in the receiver.

Microsoft’s handling of Dolby Atmos is an abomination. I use my XBOX Series S solely for gaming and use the Apple TV 4K for streaming movies and TV shows. Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music over HDMI are supported ONLY on the Apple TV 4K. The Apple Music app on any other non Apple device is 2.0. The XBOX Series X/S will up-mix it to Dolby Surround and it may display as Atmos on some receivers. This is why the tracks sound like s#%t compared to the actual Dolby Atmos tracks on the Apple TV 4K.

Thank you! This answers my question. I do have the Dolby app but this explains why Atmos tracks on the Apple Music app sound so much better on my ATV4K.

 

[lovinthehd]

Dolby Atmos from Apple Music is the same as from any streaming service and is lossy Dolby Digital Plus 7.1 based. Like movie tracks, they are mixed for Atmos though some I’m sure are remixed 5.1 tracks. You know, like some movies. Using Dolby Surround on two channel tracks will not be the same as an actual Dolby Atmos mix.

The issue with the XBOX Series X/S is that Microsoft does not bitstream Dolby Atmos. It, like the Apple TV 4K, uses Dolby MAT. BUT! You must download the Dolby app from the Microsoft store and the damn thing will up-mix any Dolby track in any game or app. Some receivers, like my Onkyo, will display the incoming signal as Dolby Surround because it has already been up-mixed and the receiver knows it. Some receivers will display the up-mixed signal as Atmos, but it isn’t really. So, like any 2.0 music track up-mixed with Dolby Surround in the receiver, it will be center centric without Center Spread ON in the receiver.

Microsoft’s handling of Dolby Atmos is an abomination. I use my XBOX Series S solely for gaming and use the Apple TV 4K for streaming movies and TV shows. Dolby Atmos tracks from Apple Music over HDMI are supported ONLY on the Apple TV 4K. The Apple Music app on any other non Apple device is 2.0. The XBOX Series X/S will up-mix it to Dolby Surround and it may display as Atmos on some receivers. This is why the tracks sound like s#%t compared to the actual Dolby Atmos tracks on the Apple TV 4K.

Define "mixed" for Atmos? You're saying that all the music that suddenly became "Atmos" enabled was actually mixed (like by a human or humans with an actual mixing desk/speakers, etc) or just run thru an algorithm/upmixer? While there could be some differences between that and DS, same principal afaik.

 

[bigbassdave]

Compared to just using the Dolby Surround upmixer on the same 2.0 channel original content? Dunno....but doubtful it makes a huge difference as they're both based on logarithms rather than actual mixes.

Big difference

 

[lovinthehd]

Big difference

Can you describe it? While it's nice that they can provide a better upmix for the commercial streamers, just wonder in what ways they did that then....

 

[Trebdp83]

Of course most of the tracks were not originally conceived with Atmos in mind and are reworked from two channel masters. Some were redone in 5.1 for DSD or MLP long ago and some have been mixed for Atmos. A 7.1 track with Atmos metadata will be superior to an up mixed two channel version using the Dolby Surround upmixer. Results will vary of course but nobody is saying they prefer to up mix a two channel movie track with Dolby Surround rather than play the Dolby Atmos track. With Atmos metadata, there is no guessing about where objects should be placed. The Dolby Surround up mixer will do what it can with two channel tracks but its just making its best guess.

 

[lovinthehd]

Of course most of the tracks were not originally conceived with Atmos in mind and are reworked from two channel masters. Some were redone in 5.1 for DSD or MLP long ago and some have been mixed for Atmos. A 7.1 track with Atmos metadata will be superior to an up mixed two channel version using the Dolby Surround upmixer. Results will vary of course but nobody is saying they prefer to up mix a two channel movie track with Dolby Surround rather than play the Dolby Atmos track. With Atmos metadata, there is no guessing about where objects should be placed. The Dolby Surround up mixer will do what it can with two channel tracks but its just making its best guess.

Thanks, I'd say the number mixed particularly for Atmos are a very very small percentage of tracks advertised as Atmos. Just the labor costs indicate such. Not much was made in multich to begin with, and as a chaser of multich content, pretty sure I'm right on that (let alone various tracks from content that has many different tracks pre-mix, where the automated version would do particularly well). I would like to know more why DS would be greatly different from the mass-applied "Atmos" upmixer, tho. No experience since i don't care to install ceiling speakers...yet.

 

[bigbassdave]

Thanks, I'd say the number mixed particularly for Atmos are a very very small percentage of tracks advertised as Atmos. Just the labor costs indicate such. Not much was made in multich to begin with, and as a chaser of multich content, pretty sure I'm right on that (let alone various tracks from content that has many different tracks pre-mix, where the automated version would do particularly well). I would like to know more why DS would be greatly different from the mass-applied "Atmos" upmixer, tho. No experience since i don't care to install ceiling speakers...yet.

All I can tell ya, as a guy with 6 in celing speakers in my main, some of the "Atmos" tracks have far better spacial effects than others. I can close my eyes and hear voices or instramments coming from areas of the room that do not have speakers, while others are clearly not mixed with as much care and simply use more of the rear channels during the chorus etc..

 

[everettT]

I believe it's just the container that it's delivered in. Others shared what's displayed vs the actual codec can vary depending on the source gear. I liked how Pioneer use to display what speakers were active on the reciever (not sure if they still do).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

All I can tell ya, as a guy with 6 in celing speakers in my main, some of the "Atmos" tracks have far better spacial effects than others. I can close my eyes and hear voices or instramments coming from areas of the room that do not have speakers, while others are clearly not mixed with as much care and simply use more of the rear channels during the chorus etc..

This has been my experience too. A few albums like point, by Yello have some holographic sounds IN the room and right next to my head and even directly behind. Booka shade’s dear future self is another one that makes me feel like I have water drops hitting my neck. It’s crazy how good it is. Like you, there are many sounds coming from locations where there are no speakers. (The “listen to 360” on YouTube is great to showcase this. YT does not support Atmos, but in the description there’s a link to the file. Save it to a Zip drive and put it in your BD player or AVR if it supports it)

Now, some of the spacial stuff in Atmos on Apple Music isn’t really super awesome. But Ime, albums mixed IN Atmos are very much better in their immersiveness and sound placement. I’ve been upmixing 2ch stereo since the late 80’s, and there is absolutely no upmixer to date that can do what a real Atmos mix can. There’s just no metadata with an upmixer.

 

[lovinthehd]

Makes me wonder if Dolby couldn't transfer some of that "Atmos" upmix goodness to whatever they do to much 2ch music into a new sound mode on avrs, perhaps there's hardware limitations?

 

[Trebdp83]

Oh, everybody is going to be good and pissed off when Dolby comes out with the Dolby Atmos and Dolby Surround successors and adds floor speakers to the mix as Sony just did with 360 Reality processing in their receivers.