Vinyl Question - MM v MC which is better or not?

MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
I have an opportunity to pick up a well maintained Rotel RP-1000 turntable at a decent price. Doc says it takes a MM cartridge, are these still available and is a MM better or not than a MC cartridge?

Thanks in advance.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
to answer your question(s), yes and 'it depends' ;)

Regardless from what I gather you want to look at higher compliance cartridges and if going the MC route be certain you have enough gain in your phono stage
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
not sure of your budget but the Ortofon 2m Blue would fit the bill in so far as MM
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have an opportunity to pick up a well maintained Rotel RP-1000 turntable at a decent price. Doc says it takes a MM cartridge, are these still available and is a MM better or not than a MC cartridge?

Thanks in advance.
How many hours on the stylus? What brand and model of cartridge? It's hard to make a recommendation without knowing the specifics. If possible, look at the tip using a microscope.

If you don't have a MC phono stage, you'll need one. If the cartridge is is good condition, you can sell it to fund a new MM cartridge.

Maybe the seller will omit the cartridge and adjust the price.

I use MC cartridges because I like the sound and since I have two, there's no reason for me to buy anything else.
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
not sure of your budget but the Ortofon 2m Blue would fit the bill in so far as MM
If I were concerned about budget, I wouldn't be purchasing a ~50 year old TT when I don't have vinyl. ;)
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
How many hours on the stylus? What brand and model of cartridge? It's hard to make a recommendation without knowing the specifics. If possible, look at the tip using a microscope.
Dunno. I assume that the cartridge needs to be replaced.

If you don't have a MC phono stage, you'll need one. If the cartridge is is good condition, you can sell it to fund a new MM cartridge.
Stage?

Maybe the seller will omit the cartridge and adjust the price.

I use MC cartridges because I like the sound and since I have two, there's no reason for me to buy anything else.
Waiting for an answer on the cartridge, the photo's don't show it or I might need glasses.

If MC are available, great. I have not listened to vinyl in at least 40 years so I have nothing to reference from a sonic perspective. Sold it all back in the 80's when CDs came out. Still have CDs from back then. I don't plan to actual use the unit, I just like how it looks and like to have it to be functional, otherwise it's just a waste of space.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Dunno. I assume that the cartridge needs to be replaced.

Stage?

Waiting for an answer on the cartridge, the photo's don't show it or I might need glasses.

If MC are available, great. I have not listened to vinyl in at least 40 years so I have nothing to reference from a sonic perspective. Sold it all back in the 80's when CDs came out. Still have CDs from back then. I don't plan to actual use the unit, I just like how it looks and like to have it to be functional, otherwise it's just a waste of space.
Why would you assume that it's bad? I did that and stopped using my cartridge while I used an AVR without a phono stage and didn't really want to buy a separate one. I assumed it was badly worn and when I was at a Goodwill store looking for other audio equipment and finding none, I turned to leave, thinking that it would be good to find a microscope (didn't really have much hope, though). As I got to the end of the row of shelves, there it was, sitting on top of the other things in the cart. A whopping $13 and the batteries for the light are still good.

I would ask the seller to have the stylus checked but again, if you don't have a MC preamp and don't intend to buy one, I would ask for it to be deleted or plan to sell it. That way, the cost of a MM cart won't be as high in the end.

Is it local, or online? I found one of these on Reverb.com for $125 with a Shure MM cartridge.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Dunno. I assume that the cartridge needs to be replaced.

Stage?

Waiting for an answer on the cartridge, the photo's don't show it or I might need glasses.

If MC are available, great. I have not listened to vinyl in at least 40 years so I have nothing to reference from a sonic perspective. Sold it all back in the 80's when CDs came out. Still have CDs from back then. I don't plan to actual use the unit, I just like how it looks and like to have it to be functional, otherwise it's just a waste of space.
Referring to the pre-amplifier "stage" that applies the RIAA equalization and boost the signal to line levels. If a receiver has just one phono input, it is usually MM as that is the most common. Sometimes there is a switch on the back to change from MM to MC. Separate phono pre-amps that can be connected to an Aux connection will often support both MM and MC.

Cartridges rarely wear out. The cantilever is built into the stylus so the wear is in the stylus tip and the cantilever. If the stylus tip is worn out then it's a matter of whether or not you can get a replacement stylus for that cartridge. If you are only getting the TT for display, does it really matter whether the cartridge is MM or MC? Just get the cartridge that looks the best. ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Dunno. I assume that the cartridge needs to be replaced.



Stage?



Waiting for an answer on the cartridge, the photo's don't show it or I might need glasses.

If MC are available, great. I have not listened to vinyl in at least 40 years so I have nothing to reference from a sonic perspective. Sold it all back in the 80's when CDs came out. Still have CDs from back then. I don't plan to actual use the unit, I just like how it looks and like to have it to be functional, otherwise it's just a waste of space.
This is one of the strangest posts we have had in a long time. Apparently you don't have any vinyl and you want this turntable for show, and yet you are concerned about what cartridge it has! By the look of it this turntable is not of museum quality. It is a very ordinary belt drive turntable in a plinth with a plexiglass lid. The arm is a typical over heavy S-shaped arm. This item is ordinary in the extreme.



As far as cartridges I would not fit a high priced MC cartridge. By the look of that arm it needs a middle of the road medium compliance MM cartridge.

MC cartridges as a group tend to be hot in the top end. They tend to be heavier than MM cartridges and tend to require a higher mass arm to keep the resonance in the right place.
The stylus is not user replaceable which is a big disadvantage, especially if the manufacturer no longer exists, or offers the service. MC cartridges require a low impedance high gain input stage. Because the gain is high they are more prone to noise problems.

Really turntables are only required for large legacy collections which I have, or for someone who wants to be a collector of rare recordings.

Turntables are hard work to put together and set up.

They also attract Audiophools like powerful magnets. These cause them to indulge in all sorts of strange phantasies, yet they are too stupid to really understand the key aspects of the physics of disc reproduction.

In my last comment, I'm getting at the fact that the cartridge/arm is a resonant system and really should be designed as a unit but very seldom is. By this I mean that the cartridge, moving mass of the arm and cartridge compliance form a resonant system. These are practically never matched even by audiophools obsessing about the irrelevant.

You would not think of replacing a driver in a speaker with one of different T/S parameters, but are quite happy to change cartridges with very different resonant properties.

Back in the fifties and sixties there were serious attempts to address this and produce arms and cartridges as a unit. The best and most widely adopted was the Decca ffss series of cartridges, or heads as they were known with the arm they snapped onto.



The other attempt was the teaming up of Shure with SME to optimize the performance of the V15 series cartridges. These later cartridges did have a damper to damp the arm cartridge resonance. The SME series III arms were designed to specifically optimize the performance of these cartridges. This was done to optimize the effective mass of the arms and add additional damping to the arm cartridge resonance.

I along with many, I think that the Shure V 15 series and specifically the xmr on a properly set up SME series III is the Everest of disc reproduction. I can attest that it is exceptionally good if perfectly set up and the loading capacitance optimized.

Here is a servo controlled Thorens TD 125 MK II with Shure V 15 xmr on an SME series III arm with fitted silicone bath damper with correct paddle.



It might not have all the chrome and luster of turntables costing thousands, but it really does not get any better than that.

So, if you actually do want to use that turntable, then I would get a middle of the road MM cartridge like an Ortofon red or splurge a little more on the blue. If you do go that route, then set up and adjust everything by the book. It takes very little to really spoil disc reproduction.
 
MaxInValrico

MaxInValrico

Senior Audioholic
Referring to the pre-amplifier "stage" that applies the RIAA equalization and boost the signal to line levels. If a receiver has just one phono input, it is usually MM as that is the most common. Sometimes there is a switch on the back to change from MM to MC. Separate phono pre-amps that can be connected to an Aux connection will often support both MM and MC.

Cartridges rarely wear out. The cantilever is built into the stylus so the wear is in the stylus tip and the cantilever. If the stylus tip is worn out then it's a matter of whether or not you can get a replacement stylus for that cartridge. If you are only getting the TT for display, does it really matter whether the cartridge is MM or MC? Just get the cartridge that looks the best. ;)
So here are the answers that I previously did not know.

  • Sound Stage: My pre-amp (Michi P5) supports both MM and MC.
  • Cartridge: The TT came with Sumiko-Andante H cartridge.
OF course, since I was already there, I went ahead and bought some vinyl to test it out.

  • ZZ Top - Tres Hombres (new)
  • Steely Dan - Aja (used)
  • UFO - Phenomenon (new)
  • Allman Bros - Live at the Fillmore (new) 50th Anniversary edition
  • Jeff Beck - There And Back (new)
  • Joni Mitchell - Court and Spark (new)
Pic is attached.
 

Attachments

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So here are the answers that I previously did not know.

  • Sound Stage: My pre-amp (Michi P5) supports both MM and MC.
  • Cartridge: The TT came with Sumiko-Andante H cartridge.
OF course, since I was already there, I went ahead and bought some vinyl to test it out.

  • ZZ Top - Tres Hombres (new)
  • Steely Dan - Aja (used)
  • UFO - Phenomenon (new)
  • Allman Bros - Live at the Fillmore (new) 50th Anniversary edition
  • Jeff Beck - There And Back (new)
  • Joni Mitchell - Court and Spark (new)
Pic is attached.
The $64,0000 dollar question is:- Does it sound any good?
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Sumiko does make some good cartridges but I could not find very much information on the Adante H except that it is a high ouput MM and maybe a little rare. Good choice of records. ;)
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
Nice choice of lps. How about considering the new Audio Technica VM series which let you choose from a conical all the way up to a line contact stylus? All MM so if you want MC you will have to look elsewhere. But once you get the cart aligned a replaceable stylus is nice instead of having to return it to be retipped. That said I had a Dynavector cart back in the 80s and it was probably my all time favorite.
 
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