Center speaker question

[BFL]

At what point is it diminishing returns going with a larger center speaker? I sit appx 13ft from the center. I just installed my Martin Logan XTF100s and bought the smaller C10 so it would fit in the opening in the entertainment center. At my seated distance am I giving up not getting the C100? If I got the C100 it would have to fit on top and I would have to angle it downwards. Plus I have to buy an adjustable stand for my Oled to clear the speaker. Is it really worth the cost and hassle?

 

[shadyJ]

Quite honestly, it may be worth not having either center. If you normally sit at a point equally distant between the left and right speakers, then those centers are not worth having. Just use a phantom center.

 

[BFL]

Quite honestly, it may be worth not having either center. If you normally sit at a point equally distant between the left and right speakers, then those centers are not worth having. Just use a phantom center.

How would that work for those that sit off axis? My wife usually sits on her recliner left of the main sofa.

 

[shadyJ]

How would that work for those that sit off axis? My wife usually sits on her recliner left of the main sofa.

The soundstage would largely collapse on the speaker nearest to the listener if the listener is close to one of the speakers. This is why center speakers were invented, so that the soundstage could have center imaging for those outside of the 'sweet spot' that isn't equally distant from the speakers. Unfortunately, the design that MartinLogan has chosen for that speaker line is not great. It's a 2.5 way design. It's like taking a tower speaker, knocking it over, and just calling it a center. A polar map of its horizontal dispersion would probably be pretty bizarre.

 

[lovinthehd]

You might like to review these articles on center speakers

Pros & Cons of Various Center Channel Designs

This article and YouTube Video takes you on a tour of the most common center channel driver arrangements and discusses their strengths and weaknesses to help make the best selection for your needs.

www.audioholics.com

Vertical vs Horizontal Center Channel Speaker Designs – An Alternate Perspective

This article contains an in depth discussion of the trade-offs of different center channel designs (MTM vs WTMW, etc) and their real world applications and limitations.

www.audioholics.com

Center Channel Speaker Design Additional Considerations

This article explores the various center channel designs while also referencing past works on the topic. Horizontally mounting drivers can compromise off-axis performance but there are alternatives.

www.audioholics.com

 

[BFL]

Thanks to u both, I will review those articles

 

[BFL]

I went back to the ML website and 2 thing stood out. 1st was they mentioned a 90x90 dispersion and 2.5-Way crossover design to eliminate lobing and preserve the tonality of the source material. Are these to help issues you were referring to?

So, based on the articles I'm assuming my c10 is a MTM design?

 

[shadyJ]

I went back to the ML website and 2 thing stood out. 1st was they mentioned a 90x90 dispersion and 2.5-Way crossover design to eliminate lobing and preserve the tonality of the source material. Are these to help issues you were referring to?

So, based on the articles I'm assuming my c10 is a MTM design?

Your c10 is an MTM design with a weird twist. It will still have the lobing issues, but the lobing pattern will be asymmetrical. Their approach might mitigate the traditional problems a little bit, but they might introduce some new ones too.

 

[BFL]

Your c10 is an MTM design with a weird twist. It will still have the lobing issues, but the lobing pattern will be asymmetrical. Their approach might mitigate the traditional problems a little bit, but they might introduce some new ones too.

In one of the articles supplied above, they mentioned having a 3way speaker as center is the best choice. Had the c10 been 3 way instead of 2.5way would those concerns still be there or just at a lesser degree? I noticed the C100 is 2.5 way as well.

Today has been my 1st day trying them with music and movies. So far I love the sound. New life compared to my 25 year old Infinity Overture speakers.

 

[shadyJ]

In one of the articles supplied above, they mentioned having a 3way speaker as center is the best choice. Had the c10 been 3 way instead of 2.5way would those concerns still be there or just at a lesser degree? I noticed the C100 is 2.5 way as well.

Those concerns can still be there in a 3-way speaker if it is really badly designed. It depends on the driver layout and crossover design decisions by the engineers.

 

[BFL]

Gotcha.. Being that it's my 1st day with the speakers, I cannot say I have heard any negatives with movies or music. I have heard some say get the biggest center you can and that led me to question my center purchase vs the big brother C100. You certainly brought up points I never thought of with having a center.

 

[lovinthehd]

Gotcha.. Being that it's my 1st day with the speakers, I cannot say I have heard any negatives with movies or music. I have heard some say get the biggest center you can and that led me to question my center purchase vs the big brother C100. You certainly brought up points I never thought of with having a center.

I'd start with its positioning. The very shape of a center to fit under (or over) a tv is part of the design compromise. I wouldn't put a center away in a cubby hole myself, and mostly try for same tweeter height or at least aimed to somewhat aid that. I do use tvs, so never the ideal position in the center of the screen.

 

[TLS Guy]

Gotcha.. Being that it's my 1st day with the speakers, I cannot say I have heard any negatives with movies or music. I have heard some say get the biggest center you can and that led me to question my center purchase vs the big brother C100. You certainly brought up points I never thought of with having a center.

As we have discussed before, the center is the most difficult to design. I spent more time and effort getting my center speaker right than the others.

It has to have a unique dispersion pattern to be ideal. It can not generally be too big, and yet has to be very powerful. It must have clear natural speech broadcast evenly over the listening area. It must match seamlessly with the mains. But its specification means it should not be identical to the mains as far as dispersion in my view.

The usual horizontal MTM design is a non starter.

A three way with crossover no higher than the speech discrimination band, with the tweeter above the mid is a reasonable layout in my view but not totally ideal. Optimally the mid should cover the whole of the speech discrimination band.

I have designed a three way for our great room system and it fulfills most of the criteria and my wife is happy with it.

My favorite center is the one in our AV room which uses coaxial drivers. This fulfills all my criteria for a center speaker. I could not be more pleased with it.

When our main home was in lakes country and we had a Townhome city bolt hole, I used a full range driver. This worked very well actually, but that is because it was never pushed hard, as we had shared walls.

So, yes the center is a very difficult speaker, and good ones far and few between and most with a design well wide of the mark. I think that center designs based around good powerful coaxial drivers is the best solution to pursue and we need more of them.

 

[Andrein]

Just added a center speaker to my 4.2 system. I can clearly see improvement in the speech in movies and in 5.1 music recordings. Though mostly prefer phantom center for Dolby upmixer

 

[BFL]

As we have discussed before, the center is the most difficult to design. I spent more time and effort getting my center speaker right than the others.

It has to have a unique dispersion pattern to be ideal. It can not generally be too big, and yet has to be very powerful. It must have clear natural speech broadcast evenly over the listening area. It must match seamlessly with the mains. But its specification means it should not be identical to the mains as far as dispersion in my view.

The usual horizontal MTM design is a non starter.

A three way with crossover no higher than the speech discrimination band, with the tweeter above the mid is a reasonable layout in my view but not totally ideal. Optimally the mid should cover the whole of the speech discrimination band.

I have designed a three way for our great room system and it fulfills most of the criteria and my wife is happy with it.

My favorite center is the one in our AV room which uses coaxial drivers. This fulfills all my criteria for a center speaker. I could not be more pleased with it.

When our main home was in lakes country and we had a Townhome city bolt hole, I used a full range driver. This worked very well actually, but that is because it was never pushed hard, as we had shared walls.

So, yes the center is a very difficult speaker, and good ones far and few between and most with a design well wide of the mark. I think that center designs based around good powerful coaxial drivers is the best solution to pursue and we need more of them.

Are the MFG just pushing centers that they know are less than ideal? Guess for most they are compromising the ideal setup anyway..just like i am by using a family room that opens into the kitchen on the left side. I would think the 90degree dispersion of the C10 to be higher than a lot of centers out there, is this correct? I have to admit, with the selection of movies i watched yesterday on the new setup, it seemed pretty seamless on the front stage. More so than i thought it would be. Also i noticed the C100 dispersion is 90x45 opposed to the little brother being 90x90. I think the F100s are 90x45 as well.

 

[-Jim-]

For our Atmos System in the Games Room, I went with HSU CCB-8s for the LCR. It does an amazing job as a center with it's coaxial design.

 

[TLS Guy]

For our Atmos System in the Games Room, I went with HSU CCB-8s for the LCR. It does an amazing job as a center with it's coaxial design.

At least I have one convert for coaxial centers.

 

[BFL]

At least I have one convert for coaxial centers.

why do you think most speaker companies go MTM instead of Coaxial? Appearance that you are getting more speakers for the money?

 

[shadyJ]

why do you think most speaker companies go MTM instead of Coaxial? Appearance that you are getting more speakers for the money?

Coaxials are more expensive to design and manufacture. Also, the biggest concern that manufacturers have, as well as consumers, is getting something that fits on the shelf under the TV. Most people don't have a lot of clearance there, but coaxials ten to make the center speakers taller. People just want something that fits and don't really care about the sound quality.

 

[BFL]

Coaxials are more expensive to design and manufacture. Also, the biggest concern that manufacturers have, as well as consumers, is getting something that fits on the shelf under the TV. Most people don't have a lot of clearance there, but coaxials ten to make the center speakers taller. People just want something that fits and don't really care about the sound quality.

@shadyJ Do you think you will get around to doing a review of the ML XT line of speakers? I know Gene did somewhat of a review and actually it was he that suggested them to me. I would be curious how they do on the testing you perform.