External DAC with Denon 3808ci

[Trebdp83]

My problem is not feeding the analog from the DAC to the 3808; that’s the easy part. I can easily send the optical S/PDIF from my DVD/CD player to the DAC and then use either the analog in or the external in from the DAC to the 3808.

But I’d also like to listen to audio from the DAC on my main speakers when I’m watching TV, which has the audio in the HDMI signal, or streaming from my PC. How do I tell the 3808 to send the front two channels of digital audio to the DAC, and how do I tell the 3808 to process any other channels except for these two front channels which are now feeding in through the external in or the analog in?

I think I’m coming to the conclusion that this probably isn’t possible and a new AVR with better DACs is in my future.

Well, now you are just being greedy. Get a new AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How do you know that the Denon dac is inferior?

Because the x3800’s THD+N is 0.004% vs. 0.001% on the x3700.

So some guys will think the x3800 won’t sound as good unless they use an external DAC.

 

[lovinthehd]

As to hearing differences in audio gear....

 

[mtrycrafts]

As to hearing differences in audio gear....
View attachment 59215

 

[yangyaphile]

Read the dac reviews. Try one out. Most likely you'll end up returning it like I did.
I thought at the time that a dac with the ESS3098Q2M chip would be sonically superior the the 12 year old Wolfson WM8740 built into my Cambridge Azur 550C CD player. I was wrong. Alot of the sweetness and musicality was gone when using the external dac. Back it went.
I'm not saying that in every case this will be the outcome. You may find the external dac you've purchased to be superior to what you have in your AVR. Just gotta try it and see for yourself.

 

[lovinthehd]

You have some strange descriptions (here as well as your dac comments in the cd thread). What makes a piece of electronics more "musical" particularly? In the other thread your description also caused me to scratch my head "Bass was a little more extended and punchy but at the expense of mid-bass clarity. I also found the midrange harder and the high end a bit too bright". Something with such differences would show up in measurements I'd think but they don't. Seems more an emotional response of the moment, not the gear.

 

[PENG]

You have some strange descriptions (here as well as your dac comments in the cd thread). What makes a piece of electronics more "musical" particularly? In the other thread your description also caused me to scratch my head "Bass was a little more extended and punchy but at the expense of mid-bass clarity. I also found the midrange harder and the high end a bit too bright". Something with such differences would show up in measurements I'd think but they don't. Seems more an emotional response of the moment, not the gear.

If he heard as described, it wouldn''t be because of the dac chip, we know that much for sure.

 

[Swerd]

Sometime last summer, a friend invited me over for a visit. We hadn't seen each other for a while, and both of us like audio. So we had fun playing each other's music and audio gear.

This friend had set up a 2-chanel system in another room, using mainly older gear he already owned, but wasn't using. His speakers were decent quality smaller 2-ways, and he used an old CD player with an older stereo receiver that had no internal DAC. No problem with any of those. But he did go a bit crazy as he bought 2 different external DACs. One was a Topping model, and I don't remember the name of the other. If I remember correctly, he paid at least $100 for one, and over $200 ($250?) for the other. I asked why he didn't use the CD player's internal DAC, and offered the opinion that he had clearly read too many reviews about external DACs.

He had listened to both and already had opinions as to their differing sound qualities. He admitted that he did the comparisons by himself, and asked me if I would help him do a blind comparison. So I humored him. I switched the RCA connectors from one DAC to the other in paired A vs. B comparisons, while he listened. I sat so all he could see was my back – he couldn't see what I did – and I never looked at him. I wrote down what was A & what was B in each comparison, while he wrote down which DAC he thought he heard. He chose a short ~1 minute music passage on one of his CDs.

I asked him to simply write down if he could hear a difference, YES or NO. If you're not sure, the answer is NO. If possible, he could also write down what DAC he thought he heard, but don't spend a lot of time trying to decide which DAC he heard. And don't bother with preference.

We stopped after 10 different comparisons. I got bored listening to that music passage, and so did he. Six of those paired comparisons were A-B or B-A, and four were A-A or B-B. After I handed him my list, he studied it along with his list … and groaned. When I did play those six A-B or B-A comparisons of different DACs, he wasn't good at identifying which DAC he heard. And when I played those four A-A or B-B comparisons (the negative controls), he thought most of them were different.

The clear result, even after only 6 paired comparisons and 4 negative controls, was that he could not tell the difference between them. He said he'd return the more expensive DAC and keep the less expensive one. We never got around to comparing his CD player's internal DAC to either of the external DACs.

 

[fmw]

When I listen to CDs, or any music coming from my main front speakers, I would like to use better DACs than the Denon internal DACs. Since I already own the Denon AVR, the cost of improving my sound would only be the cost of a decent external DAC $.

What they are telling you is that the "decent external DAC" is a waste of money and it is. DAC's all do the same thing in a similar way. The decoding doesn't affect sonics.

 

[MrBoat]

I have an old Denon (2 actually) 3805 and it's the oldest AVR among my audio group, some of who I have known over 40 years. Somehow, I am still a contender and end up being the 2 channel system to beat, and this with DIY speakers and subs.

One of our friends was always on about DACs and was much more heavily invested in this department, until he ended up getting (he wasn't the only one) fooled by my old generic CD player from 1985, and this with his people doing the switching.

Turns out that DAC man can't hear anything over 12khz, never mind sensing anything in the negative db range. I have to speak up when talking to him or he will "huh?" me to death so, his claims were a bit questionable from the start.

At one point, this all caused me to look up the DAC used in my old 3805 and was surprised to find (don't remember the exact one and without looking it up again) it's a Burr Brown that is ( or was, at least at a glance and again IIRC) still used in much newer equipment.

The only questionable qualities that ended up remaining with my overall system ended up being the room, EQ, positioning of speakers and subs, and the absolute quality of the recordings I listen to. The latter of which ended up being the most influential of all, at least with regard to music listening. In other words, everything I have combined from the last 2 decades, has been able to exceed or contend with every recorded sound I have put thru it all.

The last gremlin I have has to do with my room, it's lack of substantial window treatments and my temporarily bare floor.

 

[PENG]

I have an old Denon (2 actually) 3805 and it's the oldest AVR among my audio group, some of who I have known over 40 years. Somehow, I am still a contender and end up being the 2 channel system to beat, and this with DIY speakers and subs.

One of our friends was always on about DACs and was much more heavily invested in this department, until he ended up getting (he wasn't the only one) fooled by my old generic CD player from 1985, and this with his people doing the switching.

Turns out that DAC man can't hear anything over 12khz, never mind sensing anything in the negative db range. I have to speak up when talking to him or he will "huh?" me to death so, his claims were a bit questionable from the start.

At one point, this all caused me to look up the DAC used in my old 3805 and was surprised to find (don't remember the exact one and without looking it up again) it's a Burr Brown that is ( or was, at least at a glance and again IIRC) still used in much newer equipment.

The only questionable qualities that ended up remaining with my overall system ended up being the room, EQ, positioning of speakers and subs, and the absolute quality of the recordings I listen to. The latter of which ended up being the most influential of all, at least with regard to music listening. In other words, everything I have combined from the last 2 decades, has been able to exceed or contend with every recorded sound I have put thru it all.

The last gremlin I have has to do with my room, it's lack of substantial window treatments and my temporarily bare floor.

Denon AVR-3805, like many Denon AVRs, has the TI chip, the PCM1791

From datasheet:

24-Bit Resolution Analog Performance: − Dynamic Range: 113 dB − THD+N: 0.001% − Full-Scale Output: 2.1 V RMS

So, SINAD isn't that high but it does make 100 dB, that's better than the newest Denon AVR-X3800H through AVR-X6700H, though not as good as the those same Denon AVRs made before the AKM factory fire.