Would you consider purchasing 10,000USD speakers from an internet direct company?

[cpp]

The question was general in nature, but I'm obviously specifically interested in the manufacturer that was not explicitly mentioned but quite heavily implied by the OP (me), which is the manufacturer I represent: Sigberg Audio.

Measurements are available, return policy is 60 days, Warranty is 5 years (with a promised 10 years availability on spare parts and lifetime free support).

At the moment everything is shipped from Norway with DHL express.

I do think a presence in the US would help with auditions, shipping issues and a representative for customer contact.. Just my opinion. And good luck with the products.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, you'd typically not be directly protected by them when purchasing from an internet direct company from another country.

In our case specifically, we're located in Norway, which I believe have one of the stricter consumer protection laws. 5 year warranty is basically mandatory by law on consumer electronics. So we're quite used to high service levels and providing support for many years. But as a foreign customer you'd still have to trust that we'd uphold our end of that bargain of course.

Obviously, shipping small quantities to far off places isn't economically feasible at first, but if someone is considering $10K speakers, it could be less of a hardship. I also know that in order to avoid long waits, a manufacturer needs to have pretty deep pockets, in order to build and ship goods to another country, in order to allow a small office fill orders and that means those goods may have to sit until the demand is created. Have you explored the possibility of tagging along with shipments from another speaker manufacturer who might operate in a place that's not too far from Norway? Maybe a cruise line would be interested in carrying your speakers to other places in the ship's hold if they have space.

 

[highfigh]

Speakers connected by Ethernet cables ? What ! ?? Now I do expect dvd to fold but Blu-ray should stay popular since no one streaming services have every title you need tons of them for one movie. Although Blu-ray could fold if people stop buying them .

It's easy- ish; digital signal from the main parts of the system, powered locally. The type of cable doesn't matter, as long as the signal is unadulterated. Look into Audio over IP.

 

[highfigh]

Already on the drawing board. TVs already are Ethernet connected, then there is a cumbersome eArc back to receivers and AVPs. Once the amps are in the speakers where they belong, then the speakers can be Ethernet connected also. That will get rid of the troublesome HDMI connection, and no more big ugly black boxes with 15 amps and processing boards. Lots of money saved, quality and reliability go up like never before.

Already on the drawing board? It was on the board years ago, submitted for approval, built, tested and implemented. See my previous post- many companies have been sending AV over ethernet, but video at high resolution can be problematic. That can be dealt with by using a second cable.

Once they FINALLY begin to implement optical in meaningful ways, problems with wire cabling will all be a distant memory- I worked for an installation contractor in '97 and we wired a large house with coax, Cat5e, coax and siamesed fiber to every room. This wasn't, however, a house being built for someone who just thought they had a bit of a clue about technology, he had started a software company while he was in college, built it up and sold it to Rockwell. I haven't talked with him since, but it would be interesting to know if and how he has used the fiber. That house is in the pdf.

 

[highfigh]

We are an internet direct manufacturer and @gene has been kind enough to allow us to perform a bit of market research to help us understand the US (and international) market, and decide whether to look into alternative distribution as well.

Please only reply to the poll if you are actually in the market for (or already own) speakers in this price range, so the results are as accurate as possible. Thank you for participating! Comments in the thread are welcome as well.

I started selling audio in early-1978 and one thing I have learned is that no other item in an audio system needs an audition in the way speakers do since people become accustomed to whatever they had been using and from past experience, the speakers can be the best, but someone won't like them because they sound different. Not better or worse, just different. I eventually became a dealer and installation contractor and the one thing I won't buy blindly is speakers unless I have already heard the products in a manufacturer's line and even then, I haven't always thought the sound was as good as it could be when they came out with new designs. I would probably buy speakers from some companies just because I have heard their speakers in place, but that number is very small. A main reason for my not wanting to buy speakers blindly is that, as a dealer, I need to communicate some kind of description of the sound to the potential buyer and finding what they want or prefer is the same as reading their mind- they don't know how to put it into words and it's not always easy to drag this information from them.

I know the sound I prefer and if your speakers are as good as I think they will be, I want to see how they impact the audio marketplace- hopefully, you won't have an uphill climb.

I think one way to get attention would be by showing them at at least one of the main audio shows. It may be too late to sign up for your own room in 2023, but maybe you could work out an arrangement with an electronics brand who wants better speakers for their demonstrations.

 

[Kingnoob]

It's easy- ish; digital signal from the main parts of the system, powered locally. The type of cable doesn't matter, as long as the signal is unadulterated. Look into Audio over IP.

Hdmi often has eithernet but it’s not connected to the router right ? What’s the purpose of this ? So eithernet is lossless ?
Can’t imagine dropping 10k on speakers wish I could find a job period they pay peanuts here. That’s more then all my electronics combined cost .

 

[highfigh]

Hdmi often has eithernet but it’s not connected to the router right ? What’s the purpose of this ? So eithernet is lossless ?
Can’t imagine dropping 10k on speakers wish I could find a job period they pay peanuts here. That’s more then all my electronics combined cost .

It's just data- IP is different protocols and that data needs/uses data that would be rejected by anything that doesn't use it. Also, HDMI splitters don't work with IP data- it all needs to conform from piece to piece in order for the signal to be usable. HDMI over IP uses regular ethernet cables and the inputs/outputs on the converters are HDMI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the #1 thing is speaker measurements. This can create a big following and popularity.

#2 is price.

#3 is being able to accommodate your clients. The heart wants what it wants.

If they want modular towers with dual 10” or dual 12” woofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

If they want powered speakers or passive subwoofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

It seems there are MANY GOOD speaker companies. What sets your company apart?

 

[TLS Guy]

I think the #1 thing is speaker measurements. This can create a big following and popularity.

#2 is price.

#3 is being able to accommodate your clients. The heart wants what it wants.

If they want modular towers with dual 10” or dual 12” woofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

If they want powered speakers or passive subwoofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

It seems there are MANY GOOD speaker companies. What sets your company apart?

I will answer that for Thorbjorn. For a start they have made the sensible decision to cut the mains out at 95 Hz. The subs are integrated which all subs should be. In addition they are addressing the issue of providing adequate resources in the power band, overlapping the sub with the mains. They are designing ONLY active speakers and have no intention of making any passive ones, which is the correct decision, as they are harnessing the capabilities if an active design to achieve what is NOT possible with passive designs.

They are embracing principles of speaker design, that I have espoused for years. My reference designs have been at least active in the lower crossover areas going back over 50 years now. The speakers and sub are a unit, and buying speakers and subs from different sources is just bad engineering. EVERY crossover needs to be unique.

One of the big reasons I have designed and built speakers for my own use largely, for years, is because I wanted better speakers than what were on offer, and I have.
It is now great to see a company producing speakers following the paths I have followed independently.

Lastly they are introducing a speaker, the Manta, that gives a cardioid distribution pattern based on the principles of Cardioid microphones. Time will tell if this is a valid approach, but I do think it has the potential to reduce room influences, as long as it does not lead to other ills. A say this as in general omnidirectional microphones have a smoother response than cardioid.

I think these are exciting products. I have personal experience of aspects of their design and know the virtues. Not adding to the clutter of more passive speakers is smart. I can tell you that my designs which have employed active elements for years provide a level of performance that no passive only design can match, no matter how much it costs.

 

[Kingnoob]

We are an internet direct manufacturer and @gene has been kind enough to allow us to perform a bit of market research to help us understand the US (and international) market, and decide whether to look into alternative distribution as well.

Please only reply to the poll if you are actually in the market for (or already own) speakers in this price range, so the results are as accurate as possible. Thank you for participating! Comments in the thread are welcome as well.

Not in the market for speakers this price atleast prob not now if ever , what models of speakers are they and specs for those who can actually afford them ?

I will answer that for Thorbjorn. For a start they have made the sensible decision to cut the mains out at 95 Hz. The subs are integrated which all subs should be. In addition they are addressing the issue of providing adequate resources in the power band, overlapping the sub with the mains. They are designing ONLY active speakers and have no intention of making any passive ones, which is the correct decision, as they are harnessing the capabilities if an active design to achieve what is NOT possible with passive designs.

They are embracing principles of speaker design, that I have espoused for years. My reference designs have been at least active in the lower crossover areas going back over 50 years now. The speakers and sub are a unit, and buying speakers and subs from different sources is just bad engineering. EVERY crossover needs to be unique.

One of the big reasons I have designed and built speakers for my own use largely, for years, is because I wanted better speakers than what were on offer, and I have.
It is now great to see a company producing speakers following the paths I have followed independently.

Lastly they are introducing a speaker, the Manta, that gives a cardioid distribution pattern based on the principles of Cardioid microphones. Time will tell if this is a valid approach, but I do think it has the potential to reduce room influences, as long as it does not lead to other ills. A say this as in general omnidirectional microphones have a smoother response than cardioid.

I think these are exciting products. I have personal experience of aspects of their design and know the virtues. Not adding to the clutter of more passive speakers is smart. I can tell you that my designs which have employed active elements for years provide a level of performance that no passive only design can match, no matter how much it costs.

so there making something active like jbl m2? Another dream speaker I’ll probably never afford.

 

[TLS Guy]

Not in the market for speakers this price atleast prob not now if ever , what models of speakers are they and specs for those who can actually afford them ?

so there making something active like jbl m2? Another dream speaker I’ll probably never afford.

About the only thing they have in common with those is that they are active.

The Sigberg speakers are relatively small, but are capable of producing a massive output up to 122 db. They also use a coaxial driver for mid and HF in both their designs.
They are unique speakers in many ways and aspects of their design.

 

[mono-bloc]

The Sigberg speakers are relatively small, but are capable of producing a massive output up to 122 db. They also use a coaxial driver for mid and HF in both their designs.
They are unique speakers in many ways and aspects of their design.

Going by your colourful description I assume you own a pair. If not your simply running your mouth

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Not in the market for speakers this price atleast prob not now if ever , what models of speakers are they and specs for those who can actually afford them ?

so there making something active like jbl m2? Another dream speaker I’ll probably never afford.

Currently we have two speakers, the SBS.1:

SBS.1 Active Speakers (pair)

SBS.1 is an active speaker built to play with a subwoofer. High end audio made in Norway. Neutral, balanced and engaging sound signature.

www.sigbergaudio.no

And the Manta (only preorder, will be available before summer):

MANTA Cardioid Active Speakers (pair)

wideband Cardioid speakers, cardioid bass, dynamic range the most efficient and high sensitivity cardioid hifi speakers. 12" midbass driver, designed for subwoofers

www.sigbergaudio.no

And yes, they are expensive in the absolute sense. Relatively speaking, I think they are very high value for money. The SBS.1 was reviewed here at Audioholics and won the product of the year award, and got 4.5/5 on both performance and value despite the price being even higher for US customers at the time of review.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I think the #1 thing is speaker measurements. This can create a big following and popularity.

#2 is price.

#3 is being able to accommodate your clients. The heart wants what it wants.

If they want modular towers with dual 10” or dual 12” woofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

If they want powered speakers or passive subwoofers and you can’t accommodate, then they’re not buying.

It seems there are MANY GOOD speaker companies. What sets your company apart?

Thank you for your answer.

#1 - we have shared extensive measurements in development threads for all our products, and have Klippel measurements of on-axis / listening axis on our product pages.

#2 - perceived value is up to the consumer to evaluate.

#3 - we can't be everything for everybody, that will never work. So yes, there will be large parts of the potential market that are not looking for what we are selling. We aim to do what we do better than anyone else, and we're also currently in a niche (active speakers designed for subwoofers) where there is little if any competition. Hopefully the virtues of what we are trying to do becomes evident to people over time.

We build active speakers with higher dynamic range than just about anything else, we build active speakers designed for subwoofers, and said subwoofers come preset to perfectly match the speakers. We have the world's smallest dual 10" subwoofer. We have the world's most powerful and most wideband cardioid speaker. I suspect we have one of the most powerful monitors of their size in the SBS.1 as well. Our speakers have dedicated midbass (90-600hz) drivers. Almost no one does this, despite the fact that most of the vocal range of both male and female voices are in this range.

So if you're interested in the niche we represent, I'd say there's something unique about just about all our products despite a modest catalogue size.

 

[Trell]

Going by your colourful description I assume you own a pair. If not your simply running your mouth

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[MrBoat]

I would have to wait 3-5 years to see how the performance track record is. Not so much the longevity factor, but how many end up on the used market, consumer performance reporting thru the grapevine, and other considerations.

$10k for a pair of speakers that do not involve a delivery and installment team from an ID company? I don't understand the high prices for what I am seeing, especially considering that the expense that the distribution networks (at least here in the US) typically impose is being removed. When I hear the word "value," from foreign products, I start to wonder how much of that country's taxes am I paying, how much of the value is eaten up by shipping etc. More often than not, this would indicate I am getting an actual $2,500 pair of speakers for $10k.

Now, there are just too many speakers to choose from and by every conceivable technical approach. ID pretty much means essentially the same products of higher end mass marketers, but where the manufacturer just keeps all the money themselves. That does not really indicate value that cutting out the middleman should mean. In other words, these are not $15k worth of speakers that we can now get for $10k because of that.

I didn't vote. Mostly because I can do much better for less. But then, I am spoiled by knowing what high end drivers cost and can recognize most of them in other brands. Modern audio is mostly a huge rebadging industry these days. Gone are the heaps of prototype trials and failures since computers have taken so much of the guesswork out of such things, yet we're still paying the ever inflated prices as if these developmental overhead costs still exist.

 

[TLS Guy]

Going by your colourful description I assume you own a pair. If not your simply running your mouth

No I'm not. They have published excellent data, which I have every reason to believe is honest. They have also used many design features I have used for years. I can actually have good confidence that these are really good speakers. Measurements matter. A speaker that measures badly will always sound bad to the discriminating ear. I agree that the odd speaker can have a problem not uncovered by a standard measurement set, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
The fact is the world is awash in speakers that are not very good. These speakers look to be well thought out with high build quality and have had careful evaluation.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I would have to wait 3-5 years to see how the performance track record is. Not so much the longevity factor, but how many end up on the used market, consumer performance reporting thru the grapevine, and other considerations.

$10k for a pair of speakers that do not involve a delivery and installment team from an ID company? I don't understand the high prices for what I am seeing, especially considering that the expense that the distribution networks (at least here in the US) typically impose is being removed. When I hear the word "value," from foreign products, I start to wonder how much of that country's taxes am I paying, how much of the value is eaten up by shipping etc. More often than not, this would indicate I am getting an actual $2,500 pair of speakers for $10k.

Now, there are just too many speakers to choose from and by every conceivable technical approach. ID pretty much means essentially the same products of higher end mass marketers, but where the manufacturer just keeps all the money themselves. That does not really indicate value that cutting out the middleman should mean. In other words, these are not $15k worth of speakers that we can now get for $10k because of that.

I didn't vote. Mostly because I can do much better for less. But then, I am spoiled by knowing what high end drivers cost and can recognize most of them in other brands. Modern audio is mostly a huge rebadging industry these days. Gone are the heaps of prototype trials and failures since computers have taken so much of the guesswork out of such things, yet we're still paying the ever inflated prices as if these developmental overhead costs still exist.

Thank you for your feedback and reflections. With regards to pricing: I think this is an old discussion on this forum (and any other forum), and it's ultimately fruitless. Just figuring out the parts of a speaker and adding that up doesn't begin to tell you the cost of bringing a commercial speaker to the market - so I won't even go into that discussion. But I can tell you that retail price on a typical speaker that has gone through distributor and retailer is typically 6-10x of cost price of components / build price of a speaker - and we are nowhere near that.

That being said, it's also worth nothing that the job of the distributor/dealer is not meaningless. So when they are not there, some of that work must still be done by the manufacturer directly, including things like showroom, going to hifi shows, promotion / advertisment, etc, which is a bigger part of the cost of products today than most people realize. So the cost of the distributor/retailer doesn't go away completely in an internet direct setup.

What I would also like to comment is this: "Gone are the heaps of prototype trials and failures since computers have taken so much of the guesswork out of such things" <- You can certainly simulate drivers and enclosures, that's been possible for a long time, but just dropping random drivers into a box after simulating crossovers is pretty far from building a good speaker.

We've spent months and months (and months) on both measurements and listening sessions for all our products. Development of our latest speaker, the Manta started November 2021. It's expected to be in stock and ready to ship in July 2023. That design specifically (being a cardioid speaker) mandates additional trial and error, because there's no way to effectively simulate the behaviour of a cardioid design, the effect of dampening material inside the cabinet and so on. And the speaker doesn't have one cardioid system, but two, which must be individually designed, tested and verified.

But again, if the price reflects the perceived value is ultimately up to the consumer.

 

[highfigh]

I would have to wait 3-5 years to see how the performance track record is. Not so much the longevity factor, but how many end up on the used market, consumer performance reporting thru the grapevine, and other considerations.

$10k for a pair of speakers that do not involve a delivery and installment team from an ID company? I don't understand the high prices for what I am seeing, especially considering that the expense that the distribution networks (at least here in the US) typically impose is being removed. When I hear the word "value," from foreign products, I start to wonder how much of that country's taxes am I paying, how much of the value is eaten up by shipping etc. More often than not, this would indicate I am getting an actual $2,500 pair of speakers for $10k.

Now, there are just too many speakers to choose from and by every conceivable technical approach. ID pretty much means essentially the same products of higher end mass marketers, but where the manufacturer just keeps all the money themselves. That does not really indicate value that cutting out the middleman should mean. In other words, these are not $15k worth of speakers that we can now get for $10k because of that.

I didn't vote. Mostly because I can do much better for less. But then, I am spoiled by knowing what high end drivers cost and can recognize most of them in other brands. Modern audio is mostly a huge rebadging industry these days. Gone are the heaps of prototype trials and failures since computers have taken so much of the guesswork out of such things, yet we're still paying the ever inflated prices as if these developmental overhead costs still exist.

You can't know if you can do better unless and until you hear these. If you can 'know' the sound based on the specs, good for you- that makes you unique.

HIgh end drivers are usually built to spec- might be by the same company that makes drivers for other companies, but they're not 'off the shelf' parts unless, in the case of Chinese manufacturing, they steal the design and call it by another number or name- this is a prime reason for ending the reliance on China as a manufacturing base.

Development costs are amortized, not funded by the first few hundreds of units sold.

 

[TLS Guy]

You can't know if you can do better unless and until you hear these. If you can 'know' the sound based on the specs, good for you- that makes you unique.

HIgh end drivers are usually built to spec- might be by the same company that makes drivers for other companies, but they're not 'off the shelf' parts unless, in the case of Chinese manufacturing, they steal the design and call it by another number or name- this is a prime reason for ending the reliance on China as a manufacturing base.

Development costs are amortized, not funded by the first few hundreds of units sold.

The drivers are sourced from a reliable Italian manufacturer of excellent pro drivers. There is no Chinese junk sourced by Sigberg. The cabinets are made in the UK.