Narrowing down Receiver or Separates

[lovinthehd]

@lovinthehd . Sorry, should have expanded upon "all in one". I'm ok with having separates. However, in that, only two units: the pre-pro and then a multi-channel (5 to 7) amp. What I don't want to do at all right now is having an AVR along with external amps. Or, a pre-pro with 2 or more external amps.

I've already done very conservative SPL calculations. And for speakers in the 88 to 90 dB sensitivity range, there won't be any issues. Even with AVRs where all 7 channels dip down to say 50 watts.

Is it aesthetics or space for boxes? Just curious. ACD situations come up in your use much?

 

[Golfx]

@lovinthehd . Sorry, should have expanded upon "all in one". I'm ok with having separates. However, in that, only two units: the pre-pro and then a multi-channel (5 to 7) amp. What I don't want to do at all right now is having an AVR along with external amps. Or, a pre-pro with 2 or more external amps.

I've already done very conservative SPL calculations. And for speakers in the 88 to 90 dB sensitivity range, there won't be any issues. Even with AVRs where all 7 channels dip down to say 50 watts.

Sorry to have misunderstood your direction options but the below is a quote from your original post.

“So far, I'm leaning towards either the Cinema 40 or the AV8805A/MM7055 combo.”

Most uses of a prepro are identical to an AVR except the AVR has internal amplifiers. The newer of those now allow you to shutoff the internal amplifiers assigned to specific channels. This has the advantages of: 1) removing stress on the shared power supply which, 2) allows the AVR to run cooler while, 3) producing more wattage for the remaining internal amps, and 4) reduces potential distortion from the pre-out. But most of all, 5) AVRs are usually much cheaper than an equivalent prepro.

So if you buy an AVR that has pre—outs, like the new Marantz Cinema series which also allow you to shutoff internals amps, you are buying some future proofing should you decide to go with some external amps while driving the smaller surrounds and atmos speakers with the remaining internal amps.

 

[rsharp]

Is it aesthetics or space for boxes? Just curious. ACD situations come up in your use much?

Mostly space, but aesthetics do play a part too.

 

[lovinthehd]

a

Mostly space, but aesthetics do play a part too.

Some of the newer class d amps mentioned might be smaller than you think, and can be easily hidden as well....just a thought.

 

[dlaloum]

Thanks @Golfx for that info about Class D amps.

In terms of using pre-outs, I rather avoid that. I will most likely just keep the 5.1 setup, but having a couple more amps to move to either 5.1.2, 5.1.4, or 7.1 would be great.

I really want an all-in-one unit. One that is free of HDMI bugs. Having to unplug things and/or power off the receiver is not going to fly. I don't even have any 4K sources yet (but about to), so I can't imagine how many more issues will crop up with the current receiver.

One of the things you should keep in mind, is that many of the HDMI issues are related to the various CEC, HDCP, eARC handshakes and negotiations that go on between the different components - this leads to a vast number of possible permutations and combinations, with some proportion of them, being disfunctional.

I expect, over time, things will get more "compatible" - but there will be many firmware updates between where we are now, and true plug and play compatibility, without issues.

The problems are just as often within TV's/Projector's, or source devices, as within the AVR's / PrePro's.

There was a recent example of someone with a Firestick connected to the AVR - and all sorts of issues with other sources and outputs... when the firestick was physically disconnected from the AVR, all the other issues disappeared, and the other sources and destinations worked fine.

So right now - it is a bit of "pot luck" - there are no guarantees in HDMI land, and all forum threads for all manufacturers are full of compatibility issues.

Having said that - most people have their setup working fine... but forums tend to be where people go when things go wrong.

I would not expect the HDMI issues "noise" to abate for another couple of years.

 

[lovinthehd]

HDMI has many faults....especially when it comes to different hardware that doesn't have any particular compliance efforts for other brands' gear.

ps but if you use the brand's gear for every component, it can work well....

 

[rsharp]

HDMI has many faults....especially when it comes to different hardware that doesn't have any particular compliance efforts for other brands' gear.

ps but if you use the brand's gear for every component, it can work well....

This is where the manufacturer's have failed all of us. HDMI specifications are very clear.

With the original 75 Ω F-type connectors, composite audio/video, component video (YCrCb/YPbPr), S-video, you didn't have such issues. All equipment was built to spec and you could easily mix-and-max brands.

I think companies are trying to save costs by going with cheaper parts and thus lots of gear now have mixed HDMI versions implemented (e.g. some inputs being version 2.0b. Then playing games with 2.1 inputs where they cannot support full-bandwidth. i.e. out-of-spec).

If all companies would have just gone for proper full spec 2.1, that should have driven the cost down on those HDMI boards. So a bit ironic, if that's the case.

 

[lovinthehd]

This is where the manufacturer's have failed all of us. HDMI specifications are very clear.

With the original 75 Ω F-type connectors, composite audio/video, component video (YCrCb/YPbPr), S-video, you didn't have such issues. All equipment was built to spec and you could easily mix-and-max brands.

I think companies are trying to save costs by going with cheaper parts and thus lots of gear now have mixed HDMI versions implemented (e.g. some inputs being version 2.0b. Then playing games with 2.1 inputs where they cannot support full-bandwidth. i.e. out-of-spec).

If all companies would have just gone for proper full spec 2.1, that should have driven the cost down on those HDMI boards. So a bit ironic, if that's the case.

Overall we can thank the paranoid content owners in hollywood for hdmi.

We had an industry "insider" mention that Yamaha does do more hdmi certification in conjunction with HDMI (which costs extra money). Then I do still see folks complaining about hdmi handshake issues in some gear combos with Yamaha avrs, too. Personally have had some hdmi issues with certain combos of gear, but not too much. Then again I don't even need HDMI 2.0 (yet).

 

[rsharp]

I think the Marantz Cinema 40 may be OK. In looking at the manual again, their usage of the term "8K enhanced" seems to imply 40 Gbps. Though they don't call out the actual bandwidth anywhere. Waiting on a response from Sound United.

Found Gene's video on the Yamaha A6A setup. Very impressed with the level of features! e.g. the ability to set not only a max value, but a default startup volume. And input trim adjustments. Now exploring if the Cinema 40 would have similar features.

Leaning a bit away from Arcam. Even if adding a full bandwidth Dirac license to the Marantz, it would be a decent bit cheaper than Arcam. And I'm hearing of too many software-releated bugs and usability issues with the Arcam.

New updated list (finally, a top three):
1. Yamaha Aventage A8A (though since I can wait a bit, can see if they have updated models annouced soon; the A8A was annouced in May, 2021).
2. Marantz Cinema 40 (pending Sound United info)
3. Arcam AVR21 (more research needed on software stability)

Since these are all AVRs, I no longer need any input on external amps.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've got max volume and start up volume on three avrs, none particularly new (two Denons and an Onkyo). The Marantz would have it am sure (unless they dropped the feature, but doubt it). If menu similar to Denon would be in setup - audio - volume (and would be where you can flip absolute to relative scale and set level of mute, too).

 

[Golfx]

48GBps is really for 12bit color depth but there aren't TVs with 12 bit color depth slated for another year or two and there isn't media sold with that depth either.

 

[rsharp]

48GBps is really for 12bit color depth but there aren't TVs with 12 bit color depth slated for another year or two and there isn't media sold with that depth either.

Correct, but the discussions regarding bandwidth on this thread are regarding if all HDMI inputs use 40 Gbps. Which I have found that Yamaha, Marantz and Arcam all have models that do.

This is really about having the maximum flexibility with my system. I don't know all the source components I may add over the next few years. Also, would my upcoming 4K Blu-ray player have better upscaling for HD Blu-ray, vs the Sony 4K TV? If source components do the upconversion to include increase in chroma subsampling (e.g. from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4), that involves needing more bandwidth on that HDMI input. Having a mix of bandwidths on HDMI inputs will lead to less flexibility.

Apple TV 4K does this as well. By default, it will output 1080p/60 or 2160p/60 based upon having an HD or UHD TV respectively. Those signals though are higher bandwidth. You can instruct the unit to only output the original signal (e.g. for an HD movie, 1080/24p at 8-bit 4:2:0). While less bandwidth, I've found that everytime you start a new video, the TV goes blank while it switches modes for a few seconds (since the movie content's signal is typically different that the tvOS UI's signal). So I opted for the higher bandwidth route. Which in turn led to issues with my current Pioneer receiver that has lower bandwidth HDMI inputs for half of them.

 

[Kleinst]

Having two boxes would be a minimum with separates, and maybe even more depending on the amps you use. While I like the value of an avr, I'd at least use external amps for the mains, and let the avr do the surrounds.

As to getting one free of bugs....that is hard to anticipate. HDMI control can be an issue with any of them, as can hdmi handshake issues occur with your other gear.

True on the handshake issues. That can be so defeating