Narrowing down Receiver or Separates

[rsharp]

I currently run a 5.1 setup with a Pioneer SC-91 (Class D) AV receiver in a 14 x 21 foot room. The room at most could have a 6.1.4 setup. At the back of the room, it only has a 6 foot wide wall with an 8 foot wide opening to the kitchen area. While it wouldn't be exactly at the half-way point, I could add a single speaker on that partial wall. All possible configs I'd consider are thus:

• 5.1
• 6.1
• 5.1.4
• 6.1.4

While we currently only use HD source material, we're starting to have problems due to the receiver only having half of its six HDMI inputs being HDCP 2.2 compliant. We'll be moving to a Sony 4K mini LED TV next week and thus will start playing 4K content. So that may lead to further issues with the receiver perhaps. The receiver is now six years old.

I'm thus starting to look at a replacement receiver or separates.

The following items are needed:

1. Minimum of six HDMI inputs. All inputs must be 2.1 compliant, have full HDCP 2.3 support and all support 4K 60fps. I no longer want any equipment where some HDMI inputs are limited like the current Pioneer. In terms of support for 4K 120 fps, a single HDMI input would be ample. Now that I write that though, I find it quite confusing that manufacturers are claiming that all inputs are 2.1 compliant, but not all support 4K 120.
2. Component (video) and composite (audio) inputs for attaching a Nintendo Wii.

I'm also leaning towards equipment that:

• May have a longer lifespan (I'd love something that would last 10+ years).
• Use Class D amps (not trying to save electricity, but really like that they run cooler).
• Better upgradability in terms of firmware
• Higher output to give max flexibility in choosing speakers. I'm leaning towards B&W for now, but keeping my options open.

Assumptions:

• Any receiver I get, or separate amp, would be placed outside my cabinet (thus open on all sides and top). Any preprocessor would be within a cabinet with open back and about 7 inches of space above. While I've researched cooling units, I'd like to not have to worry about that (one less variable).
• Not brand loyal. While I currently have a Pioneer receiver, Blu-ray player and TV, I no longer need to have the same brands those components.
• For separates though, I'd like to stick with the same brand.
• I don't need multiple subwoofers. Though having flexibility to add a second (must have independent controls) would be nice.
• We should be in the current house for the next 10 years.

Here's my list so far of what I could go with along with my comments/concerns with each:

• Pioneer Elite VSX-LX505 - $1700. No longer class D. Does come with Dirac. 120 W (2ch) which is a bit lower than my current 130 W (2ch). I am concerned about Pioneer though in that they appear to really be reducing the amount of equipment they make. So not certain of their future. Also, while I don't need a copper chassis, it just seems that the build quality and components being used are not like what they were say 10 to 20 years ago.
• Onkyo TX-RZ50 - $1600. I believe this is really the same as the Pioneer VSX-LX505 (same company builds both I believe).
• Yamaha Aventage RX-A8A - $3550. Nice wattage (150 W at 2ch), but per measurements, am a bit concerned about the drop to 52 W at higher channels driven. I only need around 83 to 86 SPL at my MLP, but would like ample headroom if at all possible.
• Yamaha Aventage RX-A6A - $2450. Same comments/concerns as with the A8A.
• Marantz Cinema 40 - $3500. Seems at all HDMI inputs support 8K (which should translate to 4K/120 support). If true, that would offer lots of flexibility in either having two newer gaming systems, or ability to choose different inputs to connect to*
• Marantz AV7706 with MM7055 - $4700. Limited to a 5.1 setup. More power though than the receivers. This particular preprocessor though appears to kinda be end-of-life in terms of not getting Dirac. Wondering if there would be much support for this unit going foward?
• Marantz AV8805A with either MM7055 or MM8077 ($7000 or $8000). Better support on the pre-pro. Limited to a 7.1 setup (6.1 in my case).
• Marantz AV 10 with AMP 10 - $14000. Seems to be the most flexible option. Class D amps. Though price is definitely a con.

So far, I'm leaning towards either the Cinema 40 or the AV8805A/MM7055 combo.

* The current Pioneer does let you configure inputs and rename them, but it's rather annoying. e.g. For two of the three HDMI inputs that support HDCP 2.2, there's no dedicated button to jump to that input on the remote. So we either need to go up to the receiver and turn the input dial, or press the HDMI button on the remote to cycle through the connected equipment. There's about a 10 second delay after pressing that button to when the TV will finally display a signal along with showing us on the TV screen just what input it is we are viewing. Definitely not convenient. So any equipment that either can map all inputs to dedicated buttons on the remote would be fantastic.

Any help in narrowing these choices down would be great. Thank you.

 

[everettT]

I'd note that amps you're looking at are not what I'd consider for amplification, especially over upper mid AVRs, based on price and rated performance. If you're going to go external, 200/250 watts and up would be what makes more sense. The only other comment I have is the configuration, which would be 5.2.X and others will chime in on their preferences of what you're considering.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We love to spend your money.

It is interesting to see what everyone says. We all have different needs and experiences.

Here's my take based on everything I've owned over the last 30 years and what I currently own. You can see what I have in my Signature at the bottom of my post.

I would just get a Yamaha RX-A8A or wait for the next generation of Yamaha RX-A8B or next generation CX-A5300 AVP.

Now if I were a billionaire, then that's a different story - I would have all Bryston or McIntosh AVP + AMP.

 

[rsharp]

In looking at HDMI specs, it appears that no equipment can handle 48 Gbps. Instead, they max out at 40 Gbps. But that's a-ok for what I need.

Having said that, it appears that I can eliminate the Marantz AV 10 since of its 7 HDMI inputs, only 2 are HDMI 2.1 (40 Gbps). Whereas the Cinema 40's specs show that all 7 inputs support 8K (I read that as supporting HDMI 2.1 on all 7).

I'm also finding it quite difficult to find this basic info (i.e. how many of the HDMI inputs support the max 40 Gbps bandwidth). Will attempt to download the user manuals to see if they contain any fine print regarding limitations.

 

[rsharp]

Yea, the user manuals are more revealing, though still lacks explicit detail.

The Pioneer is also out due to too many limitations:

• The only mention of HDCP is on one page regarding HDMI inputs. It only mentions that the default values for HDMI 1 through 4 are HDCP 2.3. But there's no mention if inputs 5 and 6 can support HDCP 2.3.
• They do have a nice table though regarding HDMI versions. Though it's quite goofy. HDMI inputs 1 to 3 support HDMI 2.1 with a bandwidth of 40 Gbps. Though 4 through 6 are also labeled as supporting HDMI 2.1, the bandwidth is only 24 Gbps. The HDMI input on the front is also HDMI 2.0 with 9 Gbps bandwidth.
• They claim that all 6 inputs though can support 8K/60, via compressed video. Though the TV would need DSC.

The user manual for the Cinema 40 (I can only obtain the European version), doesn't mention HDMI versions at all. It appears though that one can assign HDCP versions to all 7 inputs. There's no fine print that I can see that would limit the choice of HDCP 2.3 to say only some of those inputs.

They also have zero mention of any bandwidth values. Only using "standard", "enhanced" and "8K enhanced" terms. It does appear that one can set all 7 inputs of the Cinema 40 to be "8K enhanced", though it's not clear.

I'll have to reach out to Marantz and hopefully get a detailed answered regarding the Cinema 40. Very odd though that their top-of-the line AV 10 would have less HDMI capability than the Cinema 40 though.

 

[rsharp]

I may have to drop my requirement of having component/composite inputs. If I do, I could then add Arcam to the list. Finally a brand that explicitly mentions HDMI 2.1 at 40 Gbps and HDCP 2.3 for all seven inputs!

I think their AVR21 would be ample for my needs, though would also consider the AVR31.

An updated list is now:

• Yamaha Aventage RX-A8A *
• Yamaha Aventage RX-A6A *
• Marantz Cinema 40 *
• Marantz AV7706 with MM7055 *
• Marantz AV8805A with either MM7055 or MM8077 *
• Arcam AVR21
• Arcam AVR31

* Reaching out to the manufacturers to get details about their HDMI inputs.

 

[Wardog555]

Those two yamaha receivers have full 40gbps ports on all the inputs.
Doing a search will find the information you need.

 

[rsharp]

Thanks; yes I did find the nice table at Yamaha's site showing that the A4A, A6A and A8A have 40 Gbps on all inputs. Only the A2A is limited on some inputs.

Marantz appears to be playing games. I'm trying to get them to address why their AV 10 mentions "7 / 2 (up to 40Gbps)" regarding the HDMI inputs. I cannot find any info about the bandwidth of the other 5 inputs. So far, their answers have been dancing around the question.

Arcam's documentation has been the best so far: "7 x HDMI2.1 @ 40Gbit/s, HDCP2.3"

 

[Mark Fox]

Perhaps you will find something in these links:

Online AV10 Manual
Marantz AV10 training.

I have an AV10; I am waiting on amps and surround speakers.

 

[ban25]

Having said that, it appears that I can eliminate the Marantz AV 10 since of its 7 HDMI inputs, only 2 are HDMI 2.1 (40 Gbps). Whereas the Cinema 40's specs show that all 7 inputs support 8K (I read that as supporting HDMI 2.1 on all 7).

It would seem you've misread? The back panel shows all 7 inputs as "HDMI IN 8K". The Cinema 40 is a lower-end model, why would they support full inputs for the 40 and 50, but not the AV10?

 

[lovinthehd]

It makes it so much more fun when they change up the model nomenclature.

 

[rsharp]

It would seem you've misread? The back panel shows all 7 inputs as "HDMI IN 8K". The Cinema 40 is a lower-end model, why would they support full inputs for the 40 and 50, but not the AV10?

I am only going by specification sheets and user manuals published by each manufacturer. It's up to them to one, be honest, and two, publish detailed specs.

e.g. I just saw An Anthem spec sheet today that in one bullet point mentions "HDMI 2.1 and HDCP 2.3". Yet in another nearby bullet point, then mentions "8K/60 4:4:4 (18 Gbps)". Sorry, but why is that not 40 Gbps? And besides, for that signal (no chroma subsampling), it would need to be compressed. There's no mention of compression at all. Some manufacturers do mention that signals will be compressed at that your TV/display would need to handle that option.

So far, I have found three companies that have provided detailed specs: Yamaha; Pioneer; and Arcam. Unfortunately the Pioneer has limited bandwidth on some of its inputs. But kudos to them for being honest and publishing the details. Both the Yamaha and Arcam units I'm looking at truly have all seven HDMI inputs as being equal: 40 Gbps, HDCP 2.3, VRR, ALLM, etc.

It's times like this that I miss the days of composite inputs.

 

[everettT]

I am only going by specification sheets and user manuals published by each manufacturer. It's up to them to one, be honest, and two, publish detailed specs.

e.g. I just saw An Anthem spec sheet today that in one bullet point mentions "HDMI 2.1 and HDCP 2.3". Yet in another nearby bullet point, then mentions "8K/60 4:4:4 (18 Gbps)". Sorry, but why is that not 40 Gbps? And besides, for that signal (no chroma subsampling), it would need to be compressed. There's no mention of compression at all. Some manufacturers do mention that signals will be compressed at that your TV/display would need to handle that option.

So far, I have found three companies that have provided detailed specs: Yamaha; Pioneer; and Arcam. Unfortunately the Pioneer has limited bandwidth on some of its inputs. But kudos to them for being honest and publishing the details. Both the Yamaha and Arcam units I'm looking at truly have all seven HDMI inputs as being equal: 40 Gbps, HDCP 2.3, VRR, ALLM, etc.

It's times like this that I miss the days of composite inputs.

I still think that you are overthinking thinking this a bit, how many full 8k inputs does one need or will need in the next 5 years, maybe longer? If you're expecting full blown 8k, you're gonna need top of the line (or near) components to connect to the AVR, including the display/s.

Just food for thought..

 

[rsharp]

I still think that you are overthinking thinking this a bit, how many full 8k inputs does one need or will need in the next 5 years, maybe longer? If you're expecting full blown 8k, you're gonna need top of the line (or near) components to connect to the AVR, including the display/s.

Just food for thought..

I don't need/want 8K at all. However, I would like full bandwidth 40 Gbps on all inputs (to handle up to 4K/120 along with VRR, ALLM, etc.) as we may get one or even two newer gaming systems in the not too distant future. Why should I end up with a receiver or separates costing in the thousands of dollars range that will be compromised like my current Pioneer? I also want the flexibility of connecting whatever source I have to whatever input. I don't think that's too much to ask.

If a piece of gear has 5 HDMI inputs, then damnit, make them equal. Same for 6, 7 or whatever quantity of inputs they have.

 

[dlaloum]

I am hoping for Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra to release the flagship models in January...

These should include a common ClassD chassis, along with a couple of pre-pro models

The ClassD amps are what you are looking for, and the new models should also have the latest version of Dirac due for release in January as well.

Recent WiFi certification postings mentioned Integra DRX8.4, Onkyo RZ70, and Pioneer LX805
Earlier listings of DTS PlayFi compatible components included RZ90, and LX705/LX905

Seems to me there has been some flux in model numbers prior to release - but the release should be very soon (I hope).

The new models run very cool, which is a great sign for longevity (I have the Integra DRX 3.4)

 

[rsharp]

I am hoping for Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra to release the flagship models in January...

That'd be great! More models to possibly fit the bill. Top on my features list is HDMI, so if the Pioneer flagship meets that, and includes a Class-D amp, that would prob move to the top of my list.

 

[Golfx]

That'd be great! More models to possibly fit the bill. Top on my features list is HDMI, so if the Pioneer flagship meets that, and includes a Class-D amp, that would prob move to the top of my list.

Because you mentioned Class D amps I wonder if you are aware that the Hypex Ncore modules used in high quality Class D amps are also available in more reasonably assembled options? Likely much cheaper and better than the amps you have mentioned above. Both USA companies test well and have very reasonably priced multichannel amps.

Buckeye Amps

Buckeye Amps utilizes the most advanced audio amplifier technologies available. Authorized seller for Hypex and Purifi Class D amplifiers. Based in the US. Free shipping and worldwide service!

www.buckeyeamp.com

VTV Multi Channel Amplifiers | VTV Amplifier

You can also use the Marantz Cinema AVRs with pre-outs and they now allow you to shut off individual internal amps you won’t be using. Many members power LCR channels with external amps and then use the AVRs’ internal amps for surrounds and atmos.

 

[rsharp]

Thanks @Golfx for that info about Class D amps.

In terms of using pre-outs, I rather avoid that. I will most likely just keep the 5.1 setup, but having a couple more amps to move to either 5.1.2, 5.1.4, or 7.1 would be great.

I really want an all-in-one unit. One that is free of HDMI bugs. Having to unplug things and/or power off the receiver is not going to fly. I don't even have any 4K sources yet (but about to), so I can't imagine how many more issues will crop up with the current receiver.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks @Golfx for that info about Class D amps.

In terms of using pre-outs, I rather avoid that. I will most likely just keep the 5.1 setup, but having a couple more amps to move to either 5.1.2, 5.1.4, or 7.1 would be great.

I really want an all-in-one unit. One that is free of HDMI bugs. Having to unplug things and/or power off the receiver is not going to fly. I don't even have any 4K sources yet (but about to), so I can't imagine how many more issues will crop up with the current receiver.

Having two boxes would be a minimum with separates, and maybe even more depending on the amps you use. While I like the value of an avr, I'd at least use external amps for the mains, and let the avr do the surrounds.

As to getting one free of bugs....that is hard to anticipate. HDMI control can be an issue with any of them, as can hdmi handshake issues occur with your other gear.

 

[rsharp]

@lovinthehd . Sorry, should have expanded upon "all in one". I'm ok with having separates. However, in that, only two units: the pre-pro and then a multi-channel (5 to 7) amp. What I don't want to do at all right now is having an AVR along with external amps. Or, a pre-pro with 2 or more external amps.

I've already done very conservative SPL calculations. And for speakers in the 88 to 90 dB sensitivity range, there won't be any issues. Even with AVRs where all 7 channels dip down to say 50 watts.