Coronavirus

[ryanosaur]

I got my Bivalent last Friday. Barely a side effect. Tiny little bit of soreness in my shoulder, unlike the previous shots that gave me the Mike Tyson KO jab to the shoulder.

Here's the thing about these vaccines... And I'm not saying this as a political statement:
Let's please consider what a real vaccines is capable of by looking at how Polio and other diseases were effectively wiped out by said vaccines.
That level of efficacy is clearly NOT apparent in the Covid vaccines. Where effectiveness of other Vaccines can be measured by a decade or more of protection, here with the current vaccines for Covid we are measuring their effective protection by months.

I am clearly not a Virologist and again, there is no political motivation behind my statement as a proud recipient now of four 'jabs' in my arm. Yet I do question if there is ever going to be a vaccine that will give us the level of protection against any Coronavirus or Flu which we apparently had from Polio Vaccines.
Is this a stopgap measure? Is there any idea if greater efficacy will ever be realized so that a single shot may last 5-10 years?
What is the long game for this looking like?

 

[Swerd]

Let's please consider what a real vaccine is capable of by looking at how Polio and other diseases were effectively wiped out by said vaccines. That level of efficacy is clearly NOT apparent in the Covid vaccines. Where effectiveness of other Vaccines can be measured by a decade or more of protection, here with the current vaccines for Covid we are measuring their effective protection by months.

When I worked at the NCI, I tried to figure out why standard immunology methods failed to develop vaccines against cancers. I used to ask real immunologists the same questions as yours.

One of them answered that developing the highly successful vaccines against polio was a rare home run in vaccine development. It worked well right out of the gate, without requiring extensive development. Essentially, we were quite lucky with polio. It's like a young baseball player wondering if he should give up because he can't hit just like Ted Williams. Keep trying, and don't beat yourself up if you don't hit a home run on the first pitch. Measles vaccine is a similarly successful, but it took many years longer to develop the vaccine than for polio.

Developing vaccines against other viral diseases have been highly variable. We have fairly successful vaccines against polio, small pox, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, human papiloma virus (HPV), to name a few – but where are the vaccines against HIV, Herpes, any of the common cold viruses, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and others?

In contrast to viral diseases, the vaccines developed against bacterial diseases (diptheria, whooping cough [pertussis], tetanus, etc.) have been much more successful. And then there are the numerous failed attempts at developing vaccines against a higher microorganism, malaria.

If we understood more about the immune system, we'd be hitting more home runs.

… I do question if there is ever going to be a vaccine that will give us the level of protection against any Coronavirus or Flu which we apparently had from Polio Vaccines. Is this a stopgap measure? Is there any idea if greater efficacy will ever be realized so that a single shot may last 5-10 years?

Ask me again 10 years from now.

It might be useful to read about the history of the development of some of the more successful vaccines. These efforts took years, decades, or longer. Only polio was a home run at the first swing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles_vaccine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

DPT vaccine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ryanosaur]

When I worked at the NCI, I tried to figure out why standard immunology methods failed to develop vaccines against cancers. I used to ask real immunologists the same questions as yours.

One of them answered that developing the highly successful vaccines against polio was a rare home run in vaccine development. It worked well right out of the gate, without requiring extensive development. Essentially, we were quite lucky with polio. Measles is a similar success story, but it took many years longer. It's like a young baseball player wondering if he should give up because he can't hit just like Ted Williams. Keep trying, and don't beat yourself up if you don't hit a home run on the first pitch.

Developing vaccines against other viral diseases have been highly variable. We have fairly successful vaccines against polio, small pox, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, human papiloma virus (HPV), to name a few – but where are the vaccines against HIV, Herpes, any of the common cold viruses, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and others?

In contrast to viral diseases, the vaccines developed against bacterial diseases (diptheria, whooping cough [pertussis], tetanus, etc.) have been much more successful. And then there are the numerous failed attempts at developing vaccines against a higher microorganism, malaria.

If we understood more about the immune system, we'd be hitting more home runs.
Ask me again 10 years from now.

It might be useful to read about the history of the development of some of the more successful vaccines. These efforts took years, decades, or longer. Only polio was a home run at the first swing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles_vaccine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

DPT vaccine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An interesting read about the potential of a new mRNA flu vaccine:

Experimental flu vaccine, developed using mRNA, seen as potential game changer — STAT

An experimental influenza vaccine developed using mRNA technology appears capable of inducing what should be a protective immune response against all known subtypes of flu, at least in animals.

apple.news

 

[ryanosaur]

And then there was also this:

Covid-like virus is discovered lurking in bats in southern China — Daily Mail

The virus, known as BtSY2, is one of five found in bats in China's Yunnan province 'that are likely to be pathogenic to humans or livestock', say experts.

apple.news

 

[Swerd]

A universal vaccine against a wider variety of influenza virus sub-types has been a dream for a long time. In a previous post (#7,434 last January), I tried to explain how influenza virus manages to change it's coat each year, creating new immunologically distinct viruses each year. There are 18 known types of flu virus's hemagglutinin protein and 11 known types of neuraminidase protein, so, in theory, 198 different combinations of these virus-surface proteins are possible.

The present way to make new vaccines against these flu strains is slow. It takes at the least, 2-3 years of work to grow enough of the new strains in chicken eggs to have enough to make new vaccines. Because new flu virus strains appear each year, this has become a large scale, continuing effort. Even if we don't succeed at making a universal flu vaccine, that can generate immunity against most strains of flu, these new mRNA vaccine methods will be much faster at making each year's vaccines than the existing methods in hen eggs.

 

[mtrycrafts]

And what is DeSantis doing today?
Held a 90 minute meeting with his Surgeon General about alleged harm of Covid vaccine.
Then he is petitioning the state supreme court to empanel a a statewide grand jury to investigate any and all wrongdoing in Florida with respect to Covid 19....
and on with the stupidity.

 

[GO-NAD!]

And what is DeSantis is doing today?
Held a 90 minute meeting with his Surgeon General about alleged harm of Covid vaccine.
Then he is petitioning the state supreme court to empanel a a statewide grand jury to investigate any and all wrongdoing in Florida with respect to Covid 19....
and on with the stupidity.

THIS is the "sane" alternative to Trump?
DeSantis targets Covid vaccine manufacturers and CDC in latest anti-vaccine moves | CNN Politics

And THIS is his hand-picked Surgeon General?
Joseph Ladapo - Wikipedia

I've visited Florida several times over the past few decades. I'll be boycotting the state until the electorate gets its collective head out of its a$$.

 

[Mr._Clark]

It will be interesting to see if the Florida Supreme Court grants the petition. There's a link to the petition in this Politico article.

DeSantis calls for grand jury to investigate Covid-19 vaccines

Gov. Ron DeSantis’ announcement was the latest in an ongoing war between his administration and the Biden administration — and the broader medical community — over the pandemic.

www.politico.com

After reading it, the petition strikes me as being weak, but I will readily admit I am not licensed to practice in Florida and I do not know what criteria the court uses to evaluate such petitions.

Presumably DeSantis is considering running for President and the petition is designed to improve his chances. Perhaps he believes this will in some way boost his standing with antivaxers (a relatively small % of the population) without significantly harming his standing with everyone else. If nothing else, he is getting a lot of media attention.

 

[Trell]

THIS is the "sane" alternative to Trump?
DeSantis targets Covid vaccine manufacturers and CDC in latest anti-vaccine moves | CNN Politics

And THIS is his hand-picked Surgeon General?
Joseph Ladapo - Wikipedia

I've visited Florida several times over the past few decades. I'll be boycotting the state until the electorate gets its collective head out of its a$$.

The GOP seems to have become a death cult.

September Update: COVID Death Rates by Partisan Lean & Vaccination Rate

As always, here's my methodology: County-level 2020 Population data via U.S. Census Bureau's 2020 Census County-level 2020 Trump vote data via each state's Election Commission or Secretary of State websites County-level Case & Death data via Johns Hopkins University Center for Systems Science &...

acasignups.net

 

[j_dewitt]

Vaccinated people now make majority of COVID deaths in US: Report

For the first time since the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020, a majority of Americans dying from Covid were at least partially vaccinated, according to the new analysis of federal and state data.

www.indiatvnews.com

In a startling revelation, a Washington Post analysis has found that more vaccinated people are now dying of the Covid disease and 58 per cent of coronavirus deaths in August in the US "were people who were vaccinated or boosted".

For the first time since the beginning of the pandemic in early 2020, a majority of Americans dying from Covid were at least partially vaccinated, according to the new analysis of federal and state data.

"In September 2021, vaccinated people made up just 23 per cent of coronavirus fatalities. In January and February this year, it was up to 42 per cent," the report mentioned.

The death among vaccinated people is increasing due to the waning efficacy of Covid vaccines and "increasingly contagious strains of the virus being spread to elderly and immunocompromised people" among those who have taken at least one vaccine dose.

"We can no longer say this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated," said Kaiser Family Foundation vice president Cynthia Cox, who conducted the analysis on behalf of the Washington Post.

Outgoing White House Chief Medical Adviser, Anthony Fauci has emphasised the safety and efficacy of the approved Covid vaccines in preventing severe illness and deaths, encouraging people to get vaccinated and boosted as soon as possible.

He said that coronavirus vaccine effectiveness wanes over time and the disease shouldn't be compared to other vaccine-treatable illnesses because of new emerging variants.

"My message, and my final message, maybe the final message I give you from this podium, is that please, for your own safety, for that of your family, get your updated Covid-19 shot as soon as you're eligible to protect yourself, your family and your community," Fauci said.

"I urge you to visit vaccine.gov to find a location where you can easily get an updated vaccine, and please do it as soon as possible."

Older people were always especially vulnerable and now make up a higher proportion of Covid fatalities than ever before in the pandemic, reports Scientific American. They also have a more severe disease, for example, pneumonia develops more often. You can look these and read more about this disease here.


Today in the US, about 335 people will die from Covid -- a disease for which there are highly effective vaccines, treatments and precautions, it added.

"Covid deaths among people age 65 and older more than doubled between April and July this year, rising by 125 per cent," according to the Kaiser Family Foundation.

The World Health Organization reported a nearly 90 per cent drop in recent Covid-19 deaths globally compared to nine months ago, but still urged vigilance against the pandemic as new variants continue to rise.

Overall, the WHO has reported 629 million cases and 6.5 million deaths linked to the pandemic.

Apparently, the history of modern covid vaccines will continue for a long time. The question of finding a vaccine with greater efficacy is unlikely to be resolved any time soon, given the rate at which the virus mutates.

 

[Swerd]

Apparently, the history of modern covid vaccines will continue for a long time. The question of finding a vaccine with greater efficacy is unlikely to be resolved any time soon, given the rate at which the virus mutates.

I agree.

But I also think, immunizing only the population of the US isn't nearly enough. Despite our unsuccessful efforts at that, little if any similar effort has gone into vaccinating the world's population. The virus cares little for what political party we vote for, no more than it cares for what flag we wave.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I got my third booster it must be. Pfizer. Sore shoulder for a day or two but no fatigue or anything else.

 

[cpp]

I got my third booster it must be. Pfizer. Sore shoulder for a day or two but no fatigue or anything else.

My third Pfizer booster is scheduled for next week. To date, I've never had any effects from these shots, well it was a tiny bit sore are the shot area, but NO soreness or after effects any where else.

 

[Speedskater]

And now the US Congress made thing complicated for the military. They removed the COVID vaccine requirement for the troops. (note that the troops still get op to 17 other vaccines). But unvaccinated troops can't be stationed in several other countries.

 

[Trell]

And now the US Congress made thing complicated for the military. They removed the COVID vaccine requirement for the troops. (note that the troops still get op to 17 other vaccines). But unvaccinated troops can't be stationed in several other countries.

That’s the Republican party in action.

 

[cpp]

That’s the Republican party in action.

They call it bipartisan . But it was the Repubs "" The Senate on Thursday gave final approval to an $858 billion military policy bill that would rescind the Pentagon’s mandate that troops receive the coronavirus vaccine, defying President Biden’s objections and sending to his desk a bill that paved the way for a massive increase in spending on the military. " " Republicans essentially forced Mr. Biden to stomach the vaccine mandate repeal over his administration’s strong objections. Led by Representative Kevin McCarthy of California, the minority leader who is campaigning to be speaker, Republicans threatened to tank the bill if it did not include the provision eliminating the requirement. That left Democrats, some of whom have privately nursed concerns about how the mandate affected recruitment efforts, with little choice but to accept it. "https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/15/us/politics/defense-bill-vaccine-mandate-senate.html

 

[mtrycrafts]

And now the US Congress made thing complicated for the military. They removed the COVID vaccine requirement for the troops. (note that the troops still get op to 17 other vaccines). But unvaccinated troops can't be stationed in several other countries.

And how rapidly can it spread again in close quarters like ships, subs, etc.
Remember that aircraft carrier incident in the early days?

 

[cpp]

Got my 3rd booster (Bi-Varlent booster) yesterday. NO soreness, no side effects. Amazing how many people I saw that were boosting up. Young, middle age, and like me old.

 

[rnatalli]

A universal vaccine against a wider variety of influenza virus sub-types has been a dream for a long time. In a previous post (#7,434 last January), I tried to explain how influenza virus manages to change it's coat each year, creating new immunologically distinct viruses each year. There are 18 known types of flu virus's hemagglutinin protein and 11 known types of neuraminidase protein, so, in theory, 198 different combinations of these virus-surface proteins are possible.

The present way to make new vaccines against these flu strains is slow. It takes at the least, 2-3 years of work to grow enough of the new strains in chicken eggs to have enough to make new vaccines. Because new flu virus strains appear each year, this has become a large scale, continuing effort. Even if we don't succeed at making a universal flu vaccine, that can generate immunity against most strains of flu, these new mRNA vaccine methods will be much faster at making each year's vaccines than the existing methods in hen eggs.

The Army's work on a universal COVID vaccine might help as it can take up to 24 strains in a single dose. If it works, I imagine it could be adapted to flu as well, though 24 is a far cry from 198.

 

[Eppie]

I got my 4th shot (2nd booster) in October before I went to visit Swerd and Dennis. Managed to return from a 1200 person concert at the Fillmore without issue. For all four vaccinations it was just a sore shoulder for a day or two.

The bug finally caught up to me though. Felt like I was coming down with a cold on the 11th. Back in November I already had the flu that's making the rounds this winter, so it wasn't that. The cold symptoms progressed quickly so I decided to stay home from the 13th on and the Covid test the next day came back positive. Crap! Fortunately no one at the office caught it when I worked the 12th but I may not have been contagious yet. A dozen of us gather for lunch at a local pub each Friday and I suspect that is where I caught it.

Symptoms were different from the flu. With the flu I had 3 days of alternating fevers and chills. With the fevers I perspired profusely and my clothes and sheets were soaked. Once the fever broke I recovered quickly. The covid virus felt like a bad head cold. The constant swollen sinuses were the worst part. Occasional soreness in the throat and ran a mild fever for several days, but the fever was nothing like the flu. I missed the flu vaccine so I bore the full brunt of that one. Can't imagine how bad Covid would have been had I not been immunized. My nephew in his 30's contacted it last spring and was close to being hospitalized. Our hospitals are currently dealing with full emergency wards and 10 to 12 hour delays just getting people out of ambulances and admitted for triage. Last place I would want to be right now! A week at home lying in bed or on the coach was tolerable.

I was masked at home most of the time and tried to limit myself to two rooms. My wife is retired and was home as well. Despite my constant hand washing and masking she still caught it though. She wasn't wearing a mask and in hindsight probably should have been. My timing was pretty crappy. Our son is back from university and our daughter is flying in from Halifax tomorrow for the first time in a long while. My wife won't be able to celebrate with my side of the family Christmas Eve and it's doubtful she'll be better for her family come Boxing Day. I could handle being home alone for the holidays but it will be rough on her.