Problems With Liberal Democracy

[lovinthehd]

"Self protection is a minimal thing in most of the US"

I respectfully cannot agree with you on this one Lovin

In my 66 years this hasn't been a thing particularly. The ones I know who carry are mental cases, and rather see them not carry. Small dicks or something.

 

[Danzilla31]

In my 66 years this hasn't been a thing particularly. The ones I know who carry are mental cases, and rather see them not carry. Small dicks or something.

I hear this type of argument a lot from people that have never carried or are averse to guns. They just assume people will use a tool like this due to a need to be macho or act tough or out of insecurity. And while they're are some people out they're that act like the ones youve observed the millions upon millions of registered owners that never cause any trouble clearly show this reason your putting out there Lovin isnt the reason the majority of responsible gun owners own a gun.

 

[Dude#1279435]

I wouldn't expect the pubs to do much intelligent "based on the economy" measures....they usually don't.

A party's core principle of capitalism who never mentions capitalism. I dunno?? Must be a taboo word.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well you got me there. It's 2018 I'm in Ann Arbor with friends. we're at a party and it starts to turn to politics migration comes up. I'm a Democrat, I didn't vote for Trump, but I did state we have an obligation to protect our borders and control who comes in. First off they asked me 'did you vote for trump' then the second thing very dear friends of ours goes with if we don't allow immigrants in like that who's gonna clean your house?

Turns out one of the other party goers was first generation American, parents from Mexico and it absolutely blew up I got the popcorn and just enjoyed the show.

And this is before I found that video that you call empty fox nonsense.

It's nonsense, because you can assemble a handle of people to say whatever it is you want to broadcast when you are selective with the interviews you want to broadcast and edit them to frame the story in a certain way. I actually agree (and I've stated it before) that borders have to be protected and entry controlled.

Hypocrisy over immigration exists at each end of the political spectrum and everywhere in between. Since your post above has nothing to do with voter ID, am I to assume that your point is that voter ID is an issue invented by white liberals who are being paternalistic towards POC?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Just went into Arthoscopic surgery on Friday and pre-checkin had to provide an ID. This is where people poo poo the ID to vote will kind of start muting.

Until somebody can convince me otherwise ID's are ubiquitous, easy to obtain, and an established method to combat common fraud.

Fox may air testimonials showing how easy it was for POC to get ID, but all they indicate was how easy it was for those individuals.

Regardless, it's a real problem for a lot of people.
Why Millions of Americans Have No Government ID : NPR
Getting a photo ID so you can vote is easy. Unless you’re poor, black, Latino or elderly. - The Washington Post

Stringent ID requirements to counter illegal voting seem to be a uniquely Republican concern. Why aren't Democrats concerned? Maybe because illegal voting is so infinitesimally rare, it isn't worth the all the drama. But then, perhaps the Democrats should be more concerned.
The Pattern of GOP Voter Fraud - The Bulwark

The moral panic over illegal voting by Democrats seems to have driven some GOP voters to actually vote illegally in order to counteract the imaginary illegal voting by their opponents.
Trump Supporter Admits Voter Fraud, Says She Voted Twice For President in Viral Video (newsweek.com)

 

[jinjuku]

It's nonsense, because you can assemble a handle of people to say whatever it is you want to broadcast when you are selective with the interviews you want to broadcast and edit them to frame the story in a certain way. I actually agree (and I've stated it before) that borders have to be protected and entry controlled.

Hypocrisy over immigration exists at each end of the political spectrum and everywhere in between. Since your post above has nothing to do with voter ID, am I to assume that your point is that voter ID is an issue invented by white liberals who are being paternalistic towards POC?

This thread is about the liberal end of things is it not?

I'm relaying my personal experience with Liberals in Ann Arbor, a place I lived for 8 years, and will personally never go back. These weren't isolated incidents.

 

[GO-NAD!]

In Canada, presenting ID at the polls is the easiest way to vote, it isn't absolutely necessary.
ID to Vote – Elections Canada

There are many acceptable forms of ID, but if you don't have any of them:

You can still vote if you declare your identity and address in writing and have someone who knows you and who is assigned to your polling station vouch for you.

The voucher must be able to prove their identity and address. A person can vouch for only one person (except in long-term care institutions).

 

[GO-NAD!]

This thread is about the liberal end of things is it not?

I'm relaying my personal experience with Liberals in Ann Arbor, a place I lived for 8 years, and will personally never go back. These weren't isolated incidents.

I presented a definition of Liberal Democracy in the very first post in this thread. It is not necessarily leftist as many (most?) Americans seem to think. I happen to find champagne socialism off-putting as well.

While liberal democracy has always been criticized by the left and the right, it seems that the authoritarian hard right is currently the main danger.

Russia is a clear example of this phenomenon. While making a mess of their own country, they are trying to inflict that mess on their neighbours. The Erdoğan government in Turkey is another. The only saving grace with Hungary is that they are too small to be a big problem for other countries, although the GOP seems to be taking inspiration from the Orban government.

The Conservative Party in Canada was traditionally a centre-right party but have taken a swing further right over the past couple of decades - especially in recent times. While I'm not really a fan of Prime Minister Trudeau, I have no other recourse, because I cannot stomach the Conservatives. I voted for the Brian Mulroney Conservatives (the party was called Progressive Conservative back then) back in the 80's, but they are definitely not the same party today.

 

[lovinthehd]

I hear this type of argument a lot from people that have never carried or are averse to guns. They just assume people will use a tool like this due to a need to be macho or act tough or out of insecurity. And while they're are some people out they're that act like the ones youve observed the millions upon millions of registered owners that never cause any trouble clearly show this reason your putting out there Lovin isnt the reason the majority of responsible gun owners own a gun.

I just don't see the need to carry a gun, and those that I've seen carry guns around here aren't needing to carry a gun either. I have nothing against ownership as long as the owner is responsible, well trained, etc. The bar is just too low these days for obtaining and carrying guns IMO/IME. The second amendment relates to militias, not some numbnut who thinks carrying a gun is necessary. There are some cases of actual need, but relatively few.

 

[Trell]

In Canada, presenting ID at the polls is the easiest way to vote, it isn't absolutely necessary.
ID to Vote – Elections Canada

There are many acceptable forms of ID, but if you don't have any of them:

This is similar to how it’s in Sweden as well.

 

[highfigh]

Just went into Arthoscopic surgery on Friday and pre-checkin had to provide an ID. This is where people poo poo the ID to vote will kind of start muting.

Until somebody can convince me otherwise ID's are ubiquitous, easy to obtain, and an established method to combat common fraud.

Don't hospital ERs require a photo ID?

 

[highfigh]

I wouldn't expect the pubs to do much intelligent "based on the economy" measures....they usually don't.

OK, so what good is raising interest rate going to do about inflation, which Biden denies, when the increases are on the supply side, not rampant consumer spending? If they're looking at the amount consumers are spending and taking it at face value, they're just ignoring the problem- consumers don't have a choice about spending more when the prices continue to increase.

I want all members of Congress and the Executive Branch to be required to do all of their own shopping for one week, with someone standing by to make sure they actually look at the price and every price tag should show the current price vs the price from 6 months ago. Once they're done, they need to explain why these increases are OK and why they think the economy is just fine. In June, Biden said that the US has the fastest growing economy in the world.

 

[highfigh]

I feel like I'm watching a football game where each team keeps fumbling away opportunities to put the game away.

Been watching the Packers? 3-9, baby!

 

[highfigh]

Everyone has "an ID" - typically when ID is used as an excuse for excluding people, the regulations are written to require not just "an" ID, but a specific ID, and one which has a trend to being limit to specific groups in society...

It's like saying - drivers licence is ubiquitous, lets use that - except it isn't - lots of New Yorkers and Parisians don't have drivers licences.... cities with plentiful public transport, and limited parking spaces often have low rates of driving licences. (to use one example)

'An" ID is well-defined. No fitness club ID, no Starbucks ID, a driver's license, State ID, active Military ID and why the hell are you even mentioning Parisians???????????

You need to look into this more, so you can learn that the people who are supposedly being excluded think there's no problem with requiring an ID. Some people may choose to not carry an ID, but they usually have one. It's not always about driving, it's the fact that a lot of services aren't available to those who don't have an ID.

 

[highfigh]

OTOH many in many states, if you don't want a driver's license, there's a rough equivalent of an id for other purposes.

ps Bringing your passport could be confusing, too....and how many poll workers can verify the authenticity of an id anyways?

Don't know about other states, but in WI, the state ID comes from the Department of Motor Vehicles because that agency was already in place and they only have to add "Not For Use As A Driver's License" on it.

The voter is supposed to be registered, right? If they check the address, it should match and if the person has moved, they're required to bring a current bill (utility, mortgage or whatever the state wants). It's up to the voter to make sure they know what they need to bring to the poll, how to register and if they might need more time when arriving. Some cities/groups offer rides to/from the polls for those who don't have transportation, too.

If someone is making it hard to vote, maybe a website for each area could be created, so the incidents can be investigated. In addition, the polling place should give the denied voters some document that indicates why they can't vote.

Anyone who tries to intimidate voters should be arrested and if the local cops do nothing, they need the same- I can't imagine too many polling places that don't have cameras nearby- they could/should set up temporary cameras if they aren't permanently installed.

 

[highfigh]

Wouldn't that be a good first step rather than jump to conclusions as to what a fake id would do?

When you were approaching legal drinking age, did kids have fake IDs?

 

[highfigh]

All the states I've lived in have been that way, even the "dark" parts of cities. Then again you have shitholes like Dallas and Houston

So, you can call certain cities 'shitholes' but T-nuts can't? Got it.

BTW- you forgot Milwaukee.

 

[lovinthehd]

So, you can call certain cities 'shitholes' but T-nuts can't? Got it.

BTW- you forgot Milwaukee.

Oh I've mentioned Milwaukee before.

 

[lovinthehd]

When you were approaching legal drinking age, did kids have fake IDs?

To vote with, no.

 

[highfigh]

In my 66 years this hasn't been a thing particularly. The ones I know who carry are mental cases, and rather see them not carry. Small dicks or something.

I think who wants/feels the need to carry depends on where they live. In some places, the PD isn't going to be able to show up in time to do anything to stop a problem, especially in rural areas. Some places, like Missouri, which have a high number of Meth labs and Methheads who cause a lot of problems, people want to be able to carry/own guns and in other places, where people don't bother each other, not so much. Northern AZ has several drug/alcohol rehab facilities and, combined with the problems Phoenix/Tucson have with drugs, human trafficking, kidnappinng and other crimes, they want their guns. I know people in AZ and they wanted their guns before all of this crap became more common, but it was part of the 'Wild West', so.....